[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 4 Alliance of the golden witch

[Valentine]

Originally Posted by Nih

The red text does prevent Rosa from opening the envelope before the morning of October 5th. It was stated that Rosa opened it "this morning" and that from the time Maria recieved it until it was opened it did not pass through anyone's hands. That includes Rosa.

Something you're missing there. It wasn't stated that when Rosa opened the envelope in the morning to get the key that it was the first time she'd opened it. If she opened it after midnight, used it to lock the chapel, returned it to the envelope, and opened it again in the morning to retrieve the key, that wouldn't conflict with any red text.

Originally Posted by Nih

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember any red text that explicitly stated the letter was opened "the next day".

"Starting when Maria's key was received, and until the instant Rosa unsealed it the next day, it passed through no one's hands."

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

There is no red text that states when the first twilight happened. It could have happened on the 4 october before midnight.

As for waking up the children it's not like your theory is different you still need to imagine someone going inside the cousin's room when they are sleeping.

True enough that we don't have red text about when the first twilight happened, but we do know that the kids stayed up late into the night talking, so it still shouldn't have been possible for someone to deliver a second letter to Maria before midnight but after the first twilight without them knowing.

I don't think sneaking into the room to steal the letter from Maria's handbag can really be considered as difficult to do without waking the cousins as waking up Maria to deliver the letter to her, but I suppose I can let that one go.

[ClockWorkAngel]

Isn't there a loophole with "Starting when Maria's key was received, and until the instant Rosa unsealed it the next day, it passed through no one's hands."? Because this does not note the moment in which it was unsealed, couldn't it possibly be unsealed, modified and then resealed?

[Kitsu]

"Starting when Maria's key was received, and until the instant Rosa unsealed it the next day, it passed through no one's hands."
No matter how I look at it....it could always be that Rosa opened it before the time with Battler. No prove she didn't

[Nih]

Hmm... I don't know. If Maria recieved the genuine envelope and stayed with the cousins on the eve of the first twilight, that would imply Rosa stole it from her bag beforehand to open/close the chapel, no? If we assume Maria didn't know, that means Rosa risked Maria discovering the missing envelope on that eve. If she went that far already, why would she bother resealing the envelope later until morning to open it herself? Likewise, if Maria did know, it still makes no sense for her to reseal it.

[ClockWorkAngel]

There's no red to disregard a fake letter that Rosa could've switched it out for.

[Nih]

Elaborate please. Do you mean to say that Rosa gave Maria a genuine envelope on that day, then during the eve of that day switched it out for a fake one, then again switched it out later? That makes no sense either, why not just give her a fake envelope in the first place?

[ClockWorkAngel]

I'm not saying that Rosa gave her the letter, instead she switched the real one out for a fake one and then returned it.

But its highly unlikely. It would only be possible if she knew the key was in the letter. Without having the "Beatrice" as an accomplice.

[hodil]

Maria's key = fake?

Could it be that Rosa had the chapel key with her all along, like when she stepped foot on Rokkenjima she went to steal the chapel key and placed a fake key there.

Beatrice then went to steal the fake key and placed it in Maria's envelope. She thought that it was the real key. She wanted to conduct the first twilight, however, Rosa already did it for her.

...?
Beatrice just got outwitted.
Beatrice is incompetant.

[k//eternal]

If Rosa obtained the chapel key by taking out the envelope, then she didn't have it originally.

[Hareoic]

Hookay, I just had an idea about the theory I proposed earlier (Beatrice actually believes she's a witch).

Spoiler for End of the episode:

I believe it's been stated time and time again that the last riddle of the fourth game is that Battler is, if I remember the semantics discussed earlier, "the last human on the island". And we've considered the whole "furniture isn't human" ideology as well.

However, if the culprit really believes that they are a witch, then, as Beatrice has said before (though not in red), witches are not humans. Therefore, the person who believes themselves to be Beatrice is still alive and kills Battler at the end of the fourth game AND, if the red from episode two that SillyHat's production brought back up is true, then they are almost consistently the culprit/mastermind of the murders.

However, then there's Eva-Beatrice's red text that says "only humans are allowed on the gameboard", which would probably cancel that theory. Yet at the same time, it would deny any magical involvement of witches.

There was something important I was going to add to that last bit that seemed to contradict something, but now I can't remember what it is.

[Marion]

Spoiler for Response to theory, EP 4 spoilers:

Your theory comes back to the idea of "what is truth". If someone believes they're a witch does that really make them a witch? Better yet, if I believe the sky is orange does that mean it's orange?

As far as it goes I say that theory is a little far-fetched. For Eva-Beatrice's crazy red truth it's shooting herself in the foot. Many loopholes in it and she basically denies witches herself overall with what she says. She's good at the thinking process but not at the actual execution.

If she just wanted to deny Eva as the culprit all she would have to do is say in red "Eva Ushiromiya is not a culprit nor an accomplice to the culprit" or something similar as to what she stated for Battler (if it's our Battler we're talking about). That entire red truth is a sham and I wouldn't be too surprised if Beatrice coordinated it that way.

[Ikth7]

Originally Posted by Hareoic

Hookay, I just had an idea about the theory I proposed earlier (Beatrice actually believes she's a witch).

Spoiler for End of the episode:

I believe it's been stated time and time again that the last riddle of the fourth game is that Battler is, if I remember the semantics discussed earlier, "the last human on the island". And we've considered the whole "furniture isn't human" ideology as well.

However, if the culprit really believes that they are a witch, then, as Beatrice has said before (though not in red), witches are not humans. Therefore, the person who believes themselves to be Beatrice is still alive and kills Battler at the end of the fourth game AND, if the red from episode two that SillyHat's production brought back up is true, then they are almost consistently the culprit/mastermind of the murders.

However, then there's Eva-Beatrice's red text that says "only humans are allowed on the gameboard", which would probably cancel that theory. Yet at the same time, it would deny any magical involvement of witches.

There was something important I was going to add to that last bit that seemed to contradict something, but now I can't remember what it is.

I used to think the 'furniture isn't human' arguement was good, but at one point Beatrice says something in red that denied that possibility partially. She doesn't seem to consider them 'human' but she does seem to consider them 'people'. At one point she says something like 'X people died.' and then follows with a list of names in red that include 'furniture'. So if she says people in red we can be sure she means the funiture as well, but if she says human in red, we might want to take a second look.

[Valentine]

Originally Posted by Nih

Hmm... I don't know. If Maria recieved the genuine envelope and stayed with the cousins on the eve of the first twilight, that would imply Rosa stole it from her bag beforehand to open/close the chapel, no?

I don't think so. From the time it was received, it couldn't be unsealed until the next day, and it didn't pass through anyone else's hands until it was unsealed, so whenever she received it, Maria must have had it after that until midnight at least. After midnight it could be unsealed by Rosa at any time, but she would have had to steal it from Maria's handbag while she slept, and later return it the same way.
So, either the chapel was already open when the key was placed in the envelope, or they didn't move to the chapel until long after midnight when the cousins were asleep.

[rogerpepitone]

Under that hypothesis, Rosa only had to make one secret trip to the cousins' room. She pretended to remove the key the next day when she fetched it at ~6:30 AM the next day.

(She didn't notice the words "Happy Halloween for Maria" the previous night. When she saw them by daylight, she was afraid somebody would connect the envelope to the chapel key.)

Spoiler for Accuracy of scenes:

I think the pajama party & Ange's response set the rules for how scenes can be falsely reported.
1) Even if all the literal statements support the party being happy / witches existing, it's possible to read between the lines and see that it's false.
2) Any physical actions must be accurately recorded.
3) Thoughts, and conversations between real and imaginary characters, can be made up.

I suspect these rules apply to scenes when fake characters (Beatrice, Kinzo, Virgilia, etc.) appear, but golden butterflies do not. Whenever golden butterflies appear, anything can be written.

[Von Himmel]

Sorry to ask this but. .

"Starting when Maria's key was received, and until the instant Rosa unsealed it the next day, it passed through no one's hands."

Where can I find this quote ? ^^; EP 2, 3 or 4 ?

[MeoTwister5]

Edit - Oops wrong reply.

[rogerpepitone]

Spoiler for One reason why George might have left the house in ep. 3:

I suggested that George might have left the house to search for a potential piece of evidence. There's one thing I can think he might have looked for; he suspected his mother and wanted to check whether Shannon still had the ring. If Eva had killed Shannon, she probably would have removed it. He didn't tell his cousins because he didn't want to false accuse his mother.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Flyvedelta

Sorry to ask this but. .

Where can I find this quote ? ^^; EP 2, 3 or 4 ?

It's episode4 Tea party.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

Spoiler for Questions about George:

A few things I've been wondering:
1) Why did George leave the guesthouse?
2) Why didn't he tell anyone else?
3) Why was the window closed & locked afterwards?

I've thought of a few possible answers:

Spoiler:

1a) He thought he could find some evidence in the mansion that would disappear or be removed.
1b) He saw something happen and wanted to investigate. (Krauss & Natushi leaving the guesthouse?)
1c) He didn't jump out the window. He was pushed (or thrown).

2a) He didn't trust Battler or Jessica.
2b) Time was of the essence and he had to act immediately.
2c) He didn't have a choice (see 1c).

3a) He didn't leave through the window.
3b) George asked someone (Nanjo?) to lock it after him.
3c) To make it seem that that George had left another way.

Any of these suggest anything?

For #3: Why can't someone have noticed the window open, figured it was a mistake, and closed and locked it without telling Battler? Nanjo could've done it accidentally and never mentioned it. If nobody knew George was going to leave through a window, they wouldn't suspect much.

I've said before that I think Nanjo is the staker. Now I'm not totally sure, though I think he very likely is a staker. But I have an unusual theory for another candidate:

Shannon. Also she might be the fake "Beatrice" whom Maria trusts. Or one of them. She may or may not also be the ritual symbol maker. She has a lot of stuff she could be, though I don't know what if anything she is. Food for thought:

There are a lot of curious things about her in each episode. In ep1, she could have faked her death (unidentified corpses were guaranteed, but her corpse was identified). She could therefore still be alive. That lets her do basically anything. Most notably, "Beatrice" appears to Maria in the twilight with Nanjo/Kumasawa/Genji and assures her cooperation and silence. I think a woman would have to do this, and there aren't many options available at that point in ep1. Likewise, "Beatrice" appears at the end, though she's never identified. Shannon as a faked death and/or working with faked-death Krauss seems probable here. All three magic symbols appear in this one.

Episode 2, I don't think Shannon is doing much killing, though she might be doing stakings. "Beatrice" appears several times and is noticed by Kyrie, Genji, etc. But she could be Shannon (or Jessica maybe?). If the whole "someone really was planning a Halloween party for Maria" thing is accurate, it could've just been an innocent thing. Then Rosa (probably) killed people and things started going to hell. I'm pretty suspicious of Genji and Rosa here, but it's possible someone else was also killing, and somebody was also staking and drawing symbols. However, they only drew the two, not the last one; Shannon died before the last one would've appeared.

Episode 3, Shannon dies in the First Twilight. No Beatrice appears (she's "replaced" by Eva-Beatrice). No magic symbols appear except the first ones on the doors, which may not be the correct way to use them. Maybe they were already prepared, or maybe someone else did them (the "second staker" Nanjo or something?). People are still staked however, which injures Shannon-as-staker unless there's two.

Episode 4, we don't really know when Shannon dies, but there are stakes (used incorrectly) and two stakes are found near Shannon and Nanjo at the well. Odd that both my suspects for staker would be together. But I can't really assert what Shannon would've been doing, if she was the one who appeared to Battler, etc.

It's possible, dumb as it sounds, that there's a "Beatrice costume" and this is part of what Battler saw at the end of ep2 (along with Kinzo's unburned corpse).

I'm still thinking Nanjo is the staker, but the fact that he ends up staked a lot means either his killer is staking him to cover it up or there's two stakers. But I assume there's just one set of stakes, so if there's multiple stakers, they know each other somehow...

[rogerpepitone]

If somebody did innocently close and lock the window, why didn't he/she just say so?