Ichigo and Rukia? or Ichigo and Orihime?

[Nervous Venus]

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this point: She doesn't really love him because she hardly speaks to him and can't control her emotions over him?

I may be wrong, and have been starting out all my relationships in the wrong way then, but I think that sounds a lot like love to me.

[Zoe]

Originally Posted by Nervous Venus

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this point: She doesn't really love him because she hardly speaks to him and can't control her emotions over him?

I may be wrong, and have been starting out all my relationships in the wrong way then, but I think that sounds a lot like love to me.

You could argue that's more akin to idol worship than love. You should be able to be yourself around the person you love.

[HaNa-san]

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

Oh, and I would like to see where I ever mention a personality aspect of Rukia that defines her and severly downplay it.

oh hoo you don't remember that too you have to read your old posts to understand yourself then

I agree with people who're being frustrating with orihime's character in hm arc.. to be honest I'm still upset with the fact that she didn't try to help rukia and chad after seeing how horrible rukia fight was by her own eyes.. I still can't believe that she forget to mention it to ichigo when she met him..it even has shown to be mentioned by him instead after grimmijaw fight…I know you would say that it's impossible for her to go to help them in a place surrendered by espadas, but at least I wanted to see some attempts of words or telling ichigo to hurry up and go to them after grimijaw fight..

[HayashiTakara]

Wow, is that the best evidence you have for her being "selfish" ?

First you people call her a selfish bitch, and now she doesn't really love Ichigo? wow, a new low? nah, can't say I'm all too surprise.

Maybe I should try slandering also.

Rukia isn't really a girl, she's a actually a tranny, Rukia's sister didn't abandon her because life was hard, it was because Rukia kept pissing on her back and biting at her neck and she couldnt take it anymore.

Oh and Hana... urg... still can't get use to calling you that, considering thats my Niece's name.. anyway, you can't point it out cause I never did such a thing.

[HaNa-san]

HT your recent post says it better XXD

[Kakashi]

Foreword: Please read my whole post if you intend to reply.

Rukia was no better then Orihime during her capture, she was even worse. It just doesn't make any sense to hate Orihime for her behaviour during capture when Rukia was even more depressing and useless beforehand. Her experience in SS made Rukia strong, it took a long time for the arc to finsih. Now people are complaining that Orihime has been mentally fragile for too long.

Once again consider the differences between Rukia and Orihime and you'll realise your reasoning is clearly flawed for hating her. By your reasons you should like Orihime more then Rukia, but you don't. I'm not saying your opinions are wrong, I'm sure there's a valid reason why you hate her, I'm saying your lieng and making stuff up. Here's why:

Orihime has lived for 15 years. Rukia has lived for over 100. Maturity always plays a big part in terms of mental fragility.

Rukia lived in Soul Society for god knows how long. She knows the system, the procedures, what's happening around her. HM is not exactly where Orihime was born and raised. The whole setting is intentionally a polar opposite to her character. She's not her cheery self for exactly that reason.

Even if you ignore both these points, there's still the fact that Orihime has been more useful then Rukia was. Name one thing Rukia did that didn't involve people carrying her around. Rukia couldn't even walk by herself. First the executioners carried her to get executed, then Ichigo picked her up and threw her to Renji, then Renji dropped her and Aizen picked her up. Aizen dropped her and she layed there useless. This in itself proves Rukia was more helpless then Orihime when captured and imprisoned. But wait there's more, Orihime brought Ichigo back from the brink of death. Orihime was the reason Ichigo was able to overcome Grimmjow in the end. Whereas Rukia constantly told him to give up because he had no chance. She didn't believe in him, Orihime did.

So Orihime has been far from pathetic during HM. If you analyse it properly her actions have been admirable. Name useful thing Rukia did while everyone around her was dieng left right and centre trying to rescue her ass. Until then just stop making sweeping statements which you know are false. It just highlights to me that some people will make up any excuse for why Orihime should not end up with Ichigo.

[Warchef]

I don't know what's funnier.. HT bitching at people for bashing Orihime's character, or HT acting like she doesn't bash Rukia's character, then doing it in a subsequent response.

[HaNa-san]

kakashi, it seems you post is overly biased, so I'll just say one thing..I thought orihime would do more of her power than just healing since her power can erase someone from existence..but all I could say that I'm so disappointed with her..comparing her with rukia, is like comparing the earth with the sky -__-'

[Warchef]

Originally Posted by kakashi-san

Foreword: Please read my whole post if you intend to reply.

Rukia was no better then Orihime during her capture, she was even worse. It just doesn't make any sense to hate Orihime for her behaviour during capture when Rukia was even more depressing and useless beforehand. Her experience in SS made Rukia strong, it took a long time for the arc to finsih. Now people are complaining that Orihime has been mentally fragile for too long.

Wait what? I can see the parallels between the two arcs, and I think both of them were useless. I'll respond in more detail to your other points.

Once again consider the differences between Rukia and Orihime and you'll realise your reasoning is clearly flawed for hating her. By your reasons you should like Orihime more then Rukia, but you don't. I'm not saying your opinions are wrong, I'm sure there's a valid reason why you hate her, I'm saying your lieng and making stuff up. Here's why:

Orihime has lived for 15 years. Rukia has lived for over 100. Maturity always plays a big part in terms of mental fragility.

Rukia lived in Soul Society for god knows how long. She knows the system, the procedures, what's happening around her. HM is not exactly where Orihime was born and raised. The whole setting is intentionally a polar opposite to her character. She's not her cheery self for exactly that reason.

I think it's more along the lines of that she thought she was worthless and was doing everyone a favor by going to HM with Ulquiorra. Which was the wrong choice, and once again LOLPARALLELS.

Even if you ignore both these points, there's still the fact that Orihime has been more useful then Rukia was. Name one thing Rukia did that didn't involve people carrying her around. Rukia couldn't even walk by herself. First the executioners carried her to get executed, then Ichigo picked her up and threw her to Renji, then Renji dropped her and Aizen picked her up. Aizen dropped her and she lay there useless. This in itself proves Rukia was more helpless then Orihime when captured and imprisoned. But wait there's more, Orihime brought Ichigo back from the brink of death. Orihime was the reason Ichigo was able to overcome Grimmjow in the end. Whereas Rukia constantly told him to give up because he had no chance. She didn't believe in him, Orihime did.

So Orihime has been far from pathetic during HM. If you analyse it properly her actions have been admirable. Name useful thing Rukia did while everyone around her was dieng left right and centre trying to rescue her ass.

Let me start by saying that I agree in varying degrees to what you are saying. However, Inoue hasn't been as useful as you claim she has. I think if you look at the bigger picture, they were both equally useless. Inoue healed Ichigo, which is cool and all, but what besides that? She just sat on the sidelines and looked on, kind of like Rukia was in SS, no? Also, please don't say that Inoue believed in him all along. She wasn't even convinced Ichigo and the others weren't going to come and rescue her, much more, Ichigo doubted if Inoue was actually kidnapped or not, which tells alot about mutual distrust. Ichigo had to be goaded by Ulquiorra and told about the plot to get rid of his doubts about Inoue, and Inoue had to be coaxed by Nell to believe that Ichigo was actually fighting for her. Another parallel to the SS arc, Renji had to tell Rukia that Ichigo was doing this all for her and to take her burden and put it on he and Ichigos' shoulders.

It's all about Kubo paralleling the two arcs, and if you are observant you can find the similarities and differences.

When you look at it, who has been more useful THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE SERIES? Rukia or Orihime? I'm gunning on Rukia.

[Mr. DJ]

Originally Posted by Zoe

You could argue that's more akin to idol worship than love. You should be able to be yourself around the person you love.

I think that's easier to say as an adult, not so much 15 year old kids.

[Sinta]

Originally Posted by DjTrizz

I think that's easier to say as an adult, not so much 15 year old kids.

Which is why a working definition of love is so important.

[blue skies]

Originally Posted by Nervous Venus

Even though I like Orihime, I still think there is that inherently (she's human, duh) weak part about Orihime that needs to be resolved.

Her feelings get the best of her sometimes and that's probably the only thing putting me off her character during the recent developments. I'm just trying my best to patiently wait until her feelings (for Ichigo, lol) come to some resolution, whether she accepts what Rangiku says, or if she confesses.

That's all I want from her, and then, I'll get over it.

Also, (cuz Kyero Fox brought it up - yet again!), I'm going to kill a kitty everytime someone mentions the boobs. Yes, I've got a complex about small boobs, dammit.

THIS, PEOPLE. Nervous Venus said it all.

I said I was done here, but...I just can't help myself. I'm back for more.

I find Rukia and Orihime pretty much identical during their own respective arcs. They're both annoyingly emo, whiny, and hate themselves. It was great to see Rukia get over it and act like herself again after her confinement, and I can't wait til Orihime gets over it. Of course, I'd rather see her get over Ichigo, become stronger on her own and see that the grass is greener someplace else than see her confess to him. But if that somehow ultimately ends in her becoming less whiny, I'll be cool with it.

[Zoe]

Originally Posted by DjTrizz

I think that's easier to say as an adult, not so much 15 year old kids.

Then you could get into the argument that a 15 year old doesn't and couldn't know what love is.

[Nervous Venus]

Originally Posted by Warchef

I don't know what's funnier.. HT bitching at people for bashing Orihime's character, or HT acting like she doesn't bash Rukia's character, then doing it in a subsequent response.

I did have a laugh or two over that a page or so ago.

[Mr. DJ]

Originally Posted by Zoe

Then you could get into the argument that a 15 year old doesn't and couldn't know what love is.

that's what most parents would say

"You're still a child, you don't know what love means!"

I wouldn't doubt Rukia knows what love is, she has had at least a century of 'living' to know

[Sinta]

I think people are confusing the issues a bit. The problem with rukia and inoue during their respective arcs doesn't have anything to do with them actually showing weakness. There is NOTHING wrong with that. The talk about one or the other being more useless, i'm sorry to say this but its kind of stupid. This is a story. Stories have to have a plot. Plot takes conflict. Conflict, more often then not comes out of character flaws or weakness. Have any of you ever heard that a perfect person could never be the main character of the story? I know I have and its totally true. If a person is "perfect" then there isn't any room for improvement.

All that being said the use of characterization has to be carefully done. Progression in a story should be forward. I think thats the problem with many romance/harem anime. Conflict arises, whether it be a new girl, some other external conflict or something internal in nature. They "overcome" the conflict, this should led to character development and eventually some sort of resolution. The problem come when the character doesn't LEARN the (or maintain) the lessons already taught. Inuyasha is a prime example. That story had a great premise, but just failed in its execution. They took the same 5 or 6 plot elements and recycled them over and over. The manga was almost 600 chapters long. 600 chapters! That is a 12 year series. By the end the only person who received any sort of real development (in my opinion) was Sesseamou (SP?). I see that as a problem with bleach. Inoue and Ichigo aren't learning the lessons of their past and are in fact BACKSLIDING in their character development. Lets forget anything romantic their relationship potential hasn't really changed, but their characterization as individuals has taken a hit this arc and that is the problem that most people have.

[blue skies]

Originally Posted by Sinta

I think people are confusing the issues a bit. The problem with rukia and inoue during their respective arcs doesn't have anything to do with them actually showing weakness. There is NOTHING wrong with that. The talk about one or the other being more useless, i'm sorry to say this but its kind of stupid. This is a story. Stories have to have a plot. Plot takes conflict. Conflict, more often then not comes out of character flaws or weakness. Have any of you ever heard that a perfect person could never be the main character of the story? I know I have and its totally true. If a person is "perfect" then there isn't any room for improvement.

Of course it would be boring if they were all perfect. I just think all the "Kurosaki-kun" and "I'm worthless" gets old fast. I'm tired of waiting for her to develop and move on. It's been long enough.

[Sinta]

Originally Posted by blue skies

Of course it would be boring if they were all perfect. I just think all the "Kurosaki-kun" and "I'm worthless" gets old fast. I'm tired of waiting for her to develop and move on. It's been long enough.

I agree. Did you read the rest of the post?

[Langus]

Originally Posted by Kyero Fox

I've yet to see Ichigo care about her boobs or even mention them.... or even STARED AT THEM. same goes for Rukia....... oh wait she doesn't have any. thus shes not important.

You don't read the manga do you? He's definitely oggled Matsumoto's rack and she played it up so he'd let her sleep over at his place. Needless to say Ichigo is a healthy 16 year old boy who oggles boobs and feels awkward talking to girls in a serious way.

Seriously you guys...the heat or rain or whatever weather you're having must be getting to you because you're all so damn bitchy! Have you guys not realized by now that HT's posts are as sarcastic and tongue and cheek as you can get? Once you accept that it's much easier to ignore his blatant goading.

I think you all need to take a minute, breathe, watch this absolutely fucking amazing video and then come back to this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrtQEaeGaZY

[Kakashi]

Originally Posted by Sinta

All that being said the use of characterization has to be carefully done. Progression in a story should be forward. I think thats the problem with many romance/harem anime. Conflict arises, whether it be a new girl, some other external conflict or something internal in nature. They "overcome" the conflict, this should led to character development and eventually some sort of resolution. The problem come when the character doesn't LEARN the (or maintain) the lessons already taught. Inuyasha is a prime example. That story had a great premise, but just failed in its execution. They took the same 5 or 6 plot elements and recycled them over and over. The manga was almost 600 chapters long. 600 chapters! That is a 12 year series. By the end the only person who received any sort of real development (in my opinion) was Sesseamou (SP?). I see that as a problem with bleach. Inoue and Ichigo aren't learning the lessons of their past and are in fact BACKSLIDING in their character development. Lets forget anything romantic their relationship potential hasn't really changed, but their characterization as individuals has taken a hit this arc and that is the problem that most people have.

I think you could argue that their character development is at a stand still, but it's hardly backsliding. Still just ignore that.

A story can't be progressing in every aspect at all times. I believe Kubo won't rush progression just for the sake of moving foward. First he dealt with both Ichigo's and Orihime's doubts, not just about eachothers intentions but everyone elses as well. Orihime realised everyone had come to rescue her. Ichigo realised his friends won't desert him as long as his hearts in the right place. Sinta I think your being too quick to judge, and we'll see both develop dramatically soon enough. Maybe not romantically (even if I think and hope it will be romantically) but I don't see Bleach suffering from lack of characterization.

Take this as an example. Realistically Kenpachi should never have been able to beat Noitora, seemed beyond his capabilities when taking into account numerous other factors. But you also probably knew he would win somehow right? It will be the same story here except Kubo is actually developing them both gradually rather then in a brash manner. People said the same thing on the Naruto forum, 'Oh man nothings progressing, this sucks'. Then the last ten chapter not-so-miraculously turned things around.

Basically I'm trying to say it's fine to judge with what you've got, but also have some leniancy in some cases. We know the HM arc isn't over yet, at least not properly.

Not to mention Rukia's development was hardly any faster then Orihime's. She didn't change her way of thinking until after Renji had valiently carried miles and miles and after Ichigo had beaten Byakuya. At least Orihime believed Ichigo when he said 'I'll definatly win'. Even if he hadn't won yet.

@Warchef: I agree with you that both were generally useless when captive. I think Kubo intends for both to be equally useful in the end. Just making a point that it's stupid to hate Orihime simply because she hasn't been her usual self under the circumstances.