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tarajis · 2014-03-23, 14:56

Okay.... now that's how you play mahjong like a boss!!!

I won't be surprised if anyone starts wetting themselves... players and spectators alike...

HandofFate · 2014-03-23, 14:57

haha, finally Saki action in this anime called Saki.
Didn't expect for the monocle all the way across the other side of the building to shatter.

The big tall girl's reactions was funny, especially after she was acting all evil in the beginning of the match.

Also, what was the reason earlier where a girl mentioned, Saki let Kyouko claim a tile even though Saki could have used it too? or something?

The Green One · 2014-03-23, 15:36

Saki could of been testing the limits of Kasumi's control by dangling an option in front of Kyouko to see if Kasumi could be beat that way. Once she proved it worked Saki started taking action immediately afterward.

Kinematics · 2014-03-23, 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by HandofFate

Also, what was the reason earlier where a girl mentioned, Saki let Kyouko claim a tile even though Saki could have used it too? or something?

It's not that Saki could have used it, it's that she knew the exact tile that Kyouko needed for a pon, which allowed Kyouko to win against Kasumi. Basically, she set Kyouko up for the win in order to break the deadlock that Kasumi seemed to have (confidence booster for Kyouko, perhaps?).

You'll also notice Saki's face at that time the win was declared, head bowed and eyes closed. She wasn't surprised by the turn of events, but it might have reminded her of one of her first games way back at the beginning where she deliberately let Yuuki win, and Nodoka got all mad about it.

The only one that seemed to notice was the Eisui girl. Kyouko might still view it as coincidental. No idea whether her teammates noticed, and if so whether they'd tell her afterwards.

Flower · 2014-03-23, 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by HandofFate

haha, finally Saki action in this anime called Saki.
Didn't expect for the monocle all the way across the other side of the building to shatter.

The big tall girl's reactions was funny, especially after she was acting all evil in the beginning of the match.

Also, what was the reason earlier where a girl mentioned, Saki let Kyouko claim a tile even though Saki could have used it too? or something?

Essentially Hatsumi noticed that Saki discarded a tile she knew Kyouko could take advantage of to build her hand when she was playing via 3 person mahjong style. It was Kyouko's 1000/2000 win that broke the winning streak of Kasumi, who had scored something close to 30000 points before then. After the win streak was broken Saki took complete control of ... well ... everything.

Requiem-x · 2014-03-23, 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Green One

Saki could of been testing the limits of Kasumi's control by dangling an option in front of Kyouko to see if Kasumi could be beat that way. Once she proved it worked Saki started taking action immediately afterward.

That would be incredibly ironic considering how Kyoko criticized her for not paying attention to her own testing

Also, I know it's a minor detail, but I think this is the first time the anime actually showed the full volume of Kasumi's assets. Fortunately, now that I like Eisui, my resilience to those things has increased considerably.

Kinematics · 2014-03-23, 15:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Green One

Saki could of been testing the limits of Kasumi's control by dangling an option in front of Kyouko to see if Kasumi could be beat that way. Once she proved it worked Saki started taking action immediately afterward.

True. Actually, Saki broke a lot of things this round (aside from the monocle).

1) She set things up so that Kyouko could win with her chi/pon, vs Kasumi.

2) She herself could still win via rinshan kaihou vs Kasumi's power.

3) She showed that Kasumi's power over the suits didn't push excess of the excluded tile into the dead wall, and that she could draw from it to get what she needed without issue.

4) She could beat Toyone's chasing riichi via kan draws.

Toyone's single wait style was already broken by Kasumi, so Saki didn't/couldn't do anything about that.

Basically, Saki showed that she could triumph over every single other hax power at the table that was still active (and in Kasumi's case, could beat it at least 3 different ways).

She also used Kyouko a fair bit. Aside from giving her the pon tile, I remember reading speculation that Saki may have been subtly manipulating the table (after the first couple times it happened naturally) to force Kyouko into yaku-less hands that required her to call riichi, and thus deal into Toyone's chasing riichi. That degree of control seems excessive, though, and doesn't mesh with her other known behavior.

At the very least, though, Saki could have manipulated the turn/draw order to prevent Kyouko from getting Toyone's winning tile (since Saki clearly knows what's needed, and roughly where a lot of the tiles are), and refrained from doing so. By deliberately not interfering (including not trying to win), she allowed Toyone to drain first place Himematsu down to a level that Saki was comfortable with.

Now the only question is, what was that super-powered move that Saki just did? It was apparently far more demanding than her rinshan kaihou (which she'd been tossing out like candy before that), yet didn't give her the win.

tarajis · 2014-03-23, 16:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kinematics

Now the only question is, what was that super-powered move that Saki just did? It was apparently far more demanding than her rinshan kaihou (which she'd been tossing out like candy before that), yet didn't give her the win.

Maybe Saki just wants to see again their reactions every time she calls kan...

Saki can be such an S sometimes...

Kotohono · 2014-03-23, 16:32

I must say I was quite surprised to see Saki actually declare Riichi

, though was a good way for her to beat Toyone's chase skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kinematics

Now the only question is, what was that super-powered move that Saki just did? It was apparently far more demanding than her rinshan kaihou (which she'd been tossing out like candy before that), yet didn't give her the win.

Personally I hope it's a certain yakuman hand that is well suited for Saki's specialty

. In preparation to be ahead enough for the 2 ones that Kasumi's power lends itself to.

Great episode overall really.

Flower · 2014-03-23, 16:54

In season 1 in the finals match to qualify for the Nationals she declared riichi just before winning her second hand in a row, so it is not like this is the first time we have seen her do so in the anime, but yes indeed - it is REALLY rare, and using the aforementioned example and the example here to circumvent Toyone's ability as references, when she does call riichi there usually seems to be a whole lot more going on than "simply" completing a yaku.

Azure_yo · 2014-03-23, 17:08

Oh my this is super awesome, like Miyamori coach said she is not negating other ability (Toyone richii senpu) , but she accepted it, manipulate, control, and finally use that enemy power for her own gain, really he he
there is so many thing that i saw in this episode regarding Saki evilness lol, well as our resident demon lord this is to be expected.

1. The way she manipulate Kyouko like a damn puppet master
Maybe the way to break Saki control is to refuse the win she offer to you hmm maybe because after i saw several episode since season 1 every time someone won from her doing her control become absolute.

2. Finally we hear those "Realm of God" again he he even if Kasumi Ensui host a god she is not invite to the GOD Feast lol

Myssa Rei · 2014-03-23, 18:24

I'll leave the mahjong mechanics discussion to those more in the know, and focus on the visual aspect instead.

SEE I TOLD YOU SO, SAKI IS EVIL! EVIIIIIIL!

*coughs*

Anyway, this is probably the first time anime-only watchers will be exposed to the Demon Lord Saki manga readers like myself know off, and she shows just why she's called as such, almost completely manipulating the table to her whims, especially when Eisui actually started to play serious this time (see that 30k point jump).

Also, is it just me, or did they take away Kasumi revealing her tiles via her boobs? That was one of the sillier parts of that phase of the Side B quarterlies.

And poor, POOR Kyouko. You wanted monsters, you got them.

Kanon · 2014-03-23, 18:38

EVERYBODY'S GETTING RAPED!

Saki showed that boob-monster from Esui and everyone else what a true demon is. Seeing her go full evil was soooo satisfying. I was giggling like a madman

This is the Saki I love. We've waited all season to see her kick ass, and boy does she not disappoint. Mahjong sure is tanoshii, eh? I feel bad for the other three players. They never stood a chance against her. Toyone didn't seem to mind all that much though, she looked happy to meet such a strong opponent. I liked that. I think she could be friends with Saki.

Kinematics · 2014-03-23, 19:05

Kyouko: "That draw felt good."

Just as she said that, they shift the camera to show Saki over Kyouko's shoulder, and Saki has the 'shrouded face' look going. It seemed a good draw for Kyouko, but was it, really?

Then a close-up of Saki as we see her flat, dead eyes, then power springing forth, and the monocle breaking.

And then... something is wrong.

Among other things, chi/pon/kan are used to manipulate the draw order. I thought at first that she couldn't be manipulating the draw order since it was a self-kan (ie: she didn't use Kyouko's discard). As such, the only thing she did by straight discarding the dead wall tile was make the next tile in the dead wall accessible; the player draw order remains the same.

However looking at it in review, it's an open kan, not a closed kan, which means she had to have gotten the 4th tile from someone's discard. Since the left tile is rotated, that means that she got the tile from the player on her left -- Kyouko. However Kyouko's last discard before that was the hatsu (green dragon). She also didn't have any 2 man (characters) in her hand when we last looked

So where did that 2 man come from?

Well, it appears there was a time skip in there that wasn't shown. The green dragon discard of Kyouko's was on the 3rd draw round. Despite it looking like one continuous scene from the point that Kyouko got her 'good draw' to the point where the monocle broke, it actually wasn't. In Saki's reach for the dead wall, we see it's the 6th draw round.

Kyouko had discarded the 1 man and 8 sou (bamboo) after the hatsu, and had 5 tiles in her discard row compared to 6 in Toyone's. In other words, missing one tile, which would be the 2 man that Saki used for her kan.

However, in figuring that out, I also see something else wrong -- Saki deliberately did not win.

The 6 sou that Saki drew would have completed another kan. We can see a triplet of 6 sou in her hand as she reaches for the dead wall (the image that allowed me to see we had skipped ahead some draw rounds). We can also see a 2-3 sou, meaning she's waiting on a 1 or 4 sou to (probably) complete her hand (can't see everything on the left of her hand, but can probably assume it's ready). I would wager there's an extremely high probability that her winning tile would be the next dead wall draw.

Instead she used the kan to simply adjust the draw order. The tile Saki would have drawn goes to Kasumi instead, Kasumi's goes to Toyone, Toyone's goes to Kyouko, and so forth.

The only question is: Why? Either her winning tile isn't in the dead wall (while unlikely given how easily she does rinshan kaihou (and even more so given that power-up), it is possible), or the tile that's there doesn't give her the exact hand she wants.

The further problem is that trying for a specific hand doesn't seem like a big deal at this point. She's already ahead of 2nd place Eisui by 10k points. Taking a rough guess on the scoring, it's probably a minimum of a 1300/all hand (since Saki is east this round), putting her 15k ahead of 2nd place. She's dealer, which means she can continue this pounding with dealer repeats, and then there's only one round after that to finish things off.

There just doesn't seem to be any reason for her to not take the win. So she's playing some other game that we're not seeing yet.

Myssa Rei · 2014-03-23, 19:12

I was a little bothered though at how fast this went in the anime. If I remember correctly, the Captain's segment was spread out over ten chapters, so each revelation -- Toyone's abilities, Kasumi's One Suit, Kyouko being Kyouko, and Saki the Demon Lord Cometh -- was a big thing.

Kinematics · 2014-03-23, 19:14

Totally minor aside: We already knew from at least as far back as Achiga than the animators put a lot of effort into even making the discard piles match up with the character (eg: Kuro placing all her discards upside down so that other players could read them better, as a habit from when she played with younger children; Nodoka being rigorously tidy, while others are sloppily tossed out; etc).

I was reminded of that again when watching the last round of discards. I already liked the fact that they showed the Eisui mikos holding back the sleeve of their robe while drawing a tile. The final discard round reminded me of the amount of detail they put into the most seemingly innocuous things.

Kasumi: Draws using her middle finger; her index finger remains pointed, and her ring and (sometimes) pinky fingers are curled in. Discards keep her fingers held together, but still very relaxed (her surrounding fingers drop below the middle finger that's pressing on the tile), reminiscent of tea ceremony forms, or the way a servant places things before the one they serve while staying bowed.

Kyouko: Uses her middle finger to hold down the tile when she discards, but splays all the other fingers outwards. Along with her bracelets, it conveys a vaguely aristocratic feel, or at least a sort of "high maintenance" girl who's comfortable in the richer parts of town.

Saki: Fingers more relaxed; outer fingers splay slightly when she pushes a tile in, but not excessively like Kyouko's.

Toyone: Overall quite mundane, actually, in contrast to her 'evil' appearance. She's really just an ordinary, friendly girl.

Amusingly, I was rewatching that last round over and over, just fascinated by the detail they put into each player's hands, when I noticed the problem that I posted about just above this.

Requiem-x · 2014-03-23, 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

I was a little bothered though at how fast this went in the anime. If I remember correctly, the Captain's segment was spread out over ten chapters, so each revelation -- Toyone's abilities, Kasumi's One Suit, Kyouko being Kyouko, and Saki the Demon Lord Cometh -- was a big thing.

This is the exact problem Hisa's breakdown had, though it obviously took less chapters to resolve. It's not even that it was rushed, it's that the format it's presented on allows to go through the material really fast.

teja208 · 2014-03-23, 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kinematics

There just doesn't seem to be any reason for her to not take the win. So she's playing some other game that we're not seeing yet.

Oh! That was quite an interesting speculation there.

Well, everything will be clearer next episode.

The Green One · 2014-03-23, 19:28

When what's below is staring at you from across the table, you know something is going to go down. What could Saki be playing at? We'll just have to see next week.

Images

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

panzerfan · 2014-03-23, 19:55

I finally feel comfortable to talk about the whole nationals arc in relation to the manga by now.

Saki is terrifying. I think that the level of her mastery over the events of this match is much pronounced here than in the manga. The anime is more nuanced when it comes to showing how that Saki was well aware of Kasumi's tendency to draw one suit and how that Saki would deliberately play to Kyouko's hand by giving that 8sou out to let her pon it.

The most terrifying part is the fact that Saki could simply shrug off Toyone and Kasumi by drawing straight from the dead wall through kan, and/or changing the draw order at will when she sees fit. The manga covered this part, but the lead up of Saki being in absolute command is nowhere as clearly shown as it is in the anime.

Edit: No intention of spoiling the manga. I just want to make clear that the anime makes the reasoning about Saki's devilry very clear.

2014-03-23, 14:56	Link #781
tarajis El Psy Congroo Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Within the choice of Steins Gate...	Okay.... now that's how you play mahjong like a boss!!! I won't be surprised if anyone starts wetting themselves... players and spectators alike... __________________ No one knows what the future holds. It has infinite potential as this encounter makes it clear. This is the choice of Steins Gate.

2014-03-23, 14:57	Link #782
HandofFate Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006	haha, finally Saki action in this anime called Saki. Didn't expect for the monocle all the way across the other side of the building to shatter. The big tall girl's reactions was funny, especially after she was acting all evil in the beginning of the match. Also, what was the reason earlier where a girl mentioned, Saki let Kyouko claim a tile even though Saki could have used it too? or something? __________________ ...

2014-03-23, 16:54	Link #790
Flower Blooming on the mountain Join Date: May 2010 Location: Deep in their roots, all flowers keep the light....	In season 1 in the finals match to qualify for the Nationals she declared riichi just before winning her second hand in a row, so it is not like this is the first time we have seen her do so in the anime, but yes indeed - it is REALLY rare, and using the aforementioned example and the example here to circumvent Toyone's ability as references, when she does call riichi there usually seems to be a whole lot more going on than "simply" completing a yaku. __________________

2014-03-23, 17:08	Link #791
Azure_yo Member Join Date: Dec 2013	Oh my this is super awesome, like Miyamori coach said she is not negating other ability (Toyone richii senpu) , but she accepted it, manipulate, control, and finally use that enemy power for her own gain, really he he there is so many thing that i saw in this episode regarding Saki evilness lol, well as our resident demon lord this is to be expected. 1. The way she manipulate Kyouko like a damn puppet master Maybe the way to break Saki control is to refuse the win she offer to you hmm maybe because after i saw several episode since season 1 every time someone won from her doing her control become absolute. 2. Finally we hear those "Realm of God" again he he even if Kasumi Ensui host a god she is not invite to the GOD Feast lol __________________

2014-03-23, 18:24	Link #792
Myssa Rei Moderate Haruhiist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Metro Manila, Philippines Age: 42	I'll leave the mahjong mechanics discussion to those more in the know, and focus on the visual aspect instead. SEE I TOLD YOU SO, SAKI IS EVIL! EVIIIIIIL! coughs Anyway, this is probably the first time anime-only watchers will be exposed to the Demon Lord Saki manga readers like myself know off, and she shows just *why* she's called as such, almost completely manipulating the table to her whims, especially when Eisui actually started to play serious this time (see that 30k point jump). Also, is it just me, or did they take away Kasumi revealing her tiles via her boobs? That was one of the sillier parts of that phase of the Side B quarterlies. And poor, POOR Kyouko. You wanted monsters, you got them. __________________

2014-03-23, 15:36	Link #783
The Green One Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010	Saki could of been testing the limits of Kasumi's control by dangling an option in front of Kyouko to see if Kasumi could be beat that way. Once she proved it worked Saki started taking action immediately afterward.

2014-03-23, 18:38	Link #793
Kanon Kana Hanazawa ♥ Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: France Age: 37	EVERYBODY'S GETTING RAPED! Saki showed that boob-monster from Esui and everyone else what a true demon is. Seeing her go full evil was soooo satisfying. I was giggling like a madman This is the Saki I love. We've waited all season to see her kick ass, and boy does she not disappoint. Mahjong sure is tanoshii, eh? I feel bad for the other three players. They never stood a chance against her. Toyone didn't seem to mind all that much though, she looked happy to meet such a strong opponent. I liked that. I think she could be friends with Saki. __________________

2014-03-23, 19:05	Link #794
Kinematics Let's play a game! Join Date: Sep 2006	Kyouko: "That draw felt good." Just as she said that, they shift the camera to show Saki over Kyouko's shoulder, and Saki has the 'shrouded face' look going. It seemed a good draw for Kyouko, but was it, really? Then a close-up of Saki as we see her flat, dead eyes, then power springing forth, and the monocle breaking. And then... something is wrong. Among other things, chi/pon/kan are used to manipulate the draw order. I thought at first that she couldn't be manipulating the draw order since it was a self-kan (ie: she didn't use Kyouko's discard). As such, the only thing she did by straight discarding the dead wall tile was make the next tile in the dead wall accessible; the player draw order remains the same. However looking at it in review, it's an open kan, not a closed kan, which means she had to have gotten the 4th tile from someone's discard. Since the left tile is rotated, that means that she got the tile from the player on her left -- Kyouko. However Kyouko's last discard before that was the hatsu (green dragon). She also didn't have any 2 man (characters) in her hand when we last looked So where did that 2 man come from? Well, it appears there was a time skip in there that wasn't shown. The green dragon discard of Kyouko's was on the 3rd draw round. Despite it looking like one continuous scene from the point that Kyouko got her 'good draw' to the point where the monocle broke, it actually wasn't. In Saki's reach for the dead wall, we see it's the 6th draw round. Kyouko had discarded the 1 man and 8 sou (bamboo) after the hatsu, and had 5 tiles in her discard row compared to 6 in Toyone's. In other words, missing one tile, which would be the 2 man that Saki used for her kan. However, in figuring that out, I also see something else wrong -- Saki deliberately did not win. The 6 sou that Saki drew would have completed another kan. We can see a triplet of 6 sou in her hand as she reaches for the dead wall (the image that allowed me to see we had skipped ahead some draw rounds). We can also see a 2-3 sou, meaning she's waiting on a 1 or 4 sou to (probably) complete her hand (can't see everything on the left of her hand, but can probably assume it's ready). I would wager there's an extremely high probability that her winning tile would be the next dead wall draw. Instead she used the kan to simply adjust the draw order. The tile Saki would have drawn goes to Kasumi instead, Kasumi's goes to Toyone, Toyone's goes to Kyouko, and so forth. The only question is: Why? Either her winning tile isn't in the dead wall (while unlikely given how easily she does rinshan kaihou (and even more so given that power-up), it is possible), or the tile that's there doesn't give her the exact hand she wants. The further problem is that trying for a specific hand doesn't seem like a big deal at this point. She's already ahead of 2nd place Eisui by 10k points. Taking a rough guess on the scoring, it's probably a minimum of a 1300/all hand (since Saki is east this round), putting her 15k ahead of 2nd place. She's dealer, which means she can continue this pounding with dealer repeats, and then there's only one round after that to finish things off. There just doesn't seem to be any reason for her to not take the win. So she's playing some other game that we're not seeing yet.

2014-03-23, 19:12	Link #795
Myssa Rei Moderate Haruhiist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Metro Manila, Philippines Age: 42	I was a little bothered though at how fast this went in the anime. If I remember correctly, the Captain's segment was spread out over ten chapters, so each revelation -- Toyone's abilities, Kasumi's One Suit, Kyouko being Kyouko, and Saki the Demon Lord Cometh -- was a big thing. __________________

2014-03-23, 19:14	Link #796
Kinematics Let's play a game! Join Date: Sep 2006	Totally minor aside: We already knew from at least as far back as Achiga than the animators put a lot of effort into even making the discard piles match up with the character (eg: Kuro placing all her discards upside down so that other players could read them better, as a habit from when she played with younger children; Nodoka being rigorously tidy, while others are sloppily tossed out; etc). I was reminded of that again when watching the last round of discards. I already liked the fact that they showed the Eisui mikos holding back the sleeve of their robe while drawing a tile. The final discard round reminded me of the amount of detail they put into the most seemingly innocuous things. Kasumi: Draws using her middle finger; her index finger remains pointed, and her ring and (sometimes) pinky fingers are curled in. Discards keep her fingers held together, but still very relaxed (her surrounding fingers drop below the middle finger that's pressing on the tile), reminiscent of tea ceremony forms, or the way a servant places things before the one they serve while staying bowed. Kyouko: Uses her middle finger to hold down the tile when she discards, but splays all the other fingers outwards. Along with her bracelets, it conveys a vaguely aristocratic feel, or at least a sort of "high maintenance" girl who's comfortable in the richer parts of town. Saki: Fingers more relaxed; outer fingers splay slightly when she pushes a tile in, but not excessively like Kyouko's. Toyone: Overall quite mundane, actually, in contrast to her 'evil' appearance. She's really just an ordinary, friendly girl. Amusingly, I was rewatching that last round over and over, just fascinated by the detail they put into each player's hands, when I noticed the problem that I posted about just above this.

2014-03-23, 19:28	Link #799
The Green One Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010	When what's below is staring at you from across the table, you know something is going to go down. What could Saki be playing at? We'll just have to see next week. Images Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

2014-03-23, 19:55	Link #800
panzerfan Name means little... Graphic Designer Join Date: Dec 2004	I finally feel comfortable to talk about the whole nationals arc in relation to the manga by now. Saki is terrifying. I think that the level of her mastery over the events of this match is much pronounced here than in the manga. The anime is more nuanced when it comes to showing how that Saki was well aware of Kasumi's tendency to draw one suit and how that Saki would deliberately play to Kyouko's hand by giving that 8sou out to let her pon it. The most terrifying part is the fact that Saki could simply shrug off Toyone and Kasumi by drawing straight from the dead wall through kan, and/or changing the draw order at will when she sees fit. The manga covered this part, but the lead up of Saki being in absolute command is nowhere as clearly shown as it is in the anime. Edit: No intention of spoiling the manga. I just want to make clear that the anime makes the reasoning about Saki's devilry very clear. __________________ It would be enough for the depressing things in life to only exist in reality. It is because that I think the birth of a story... is from people dreaming of a happy ending. ~Misaka Shiori Last edited by panzerfan; 2014-03-23 at 20:05.