2011-11-15, 01:40 | Link #3501 | |
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Join Date: Sep 2010
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Well thing that bother me. I don't get the part where they talked about " Who killed Beatrice of 1986?" well what's the point of all of that? Will told us that the culprit is the live cat But how can a cat be a culprit? That impossible. Also Is this implying that the Actor who played Beatrice just killed the character off and didn't really died at all? Now im starting to think that The whole epitapt murder was Yasu's way to kill the three Characters Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice so that she can start a new life. But things never went according to plan. |
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2011-11-15, 02:58 | Link #3503 | |
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In general, though, I don't think it's possible to make sense of Umineko without being able to hold conflicting interpretations in mind simultaneously. An uncharitable reader could call this a cheap dodge, a Devil's Proof by Ryu against any possible plot holes. But I'd rather think of it as one of those optical illusions where you can see either a vase or two people kissing, depending on which parts of the picture you look at. |
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2011-11-15, 03:30 | Link #3504 |
The True Culprit
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That's possible. But I'm still not convinced that Yasu planned to murder anyone at all. She just wanted one of her loves to bear fruit, meaning the other two characters would "die", but the Tea Party makes it pretty clear that since everything happens in Lion's world, then Yasu is PROBABLY innocent.
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2011-11-15, 04:00 | Link #3505 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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If you look at her mindset before she found out Battler was coming, maybe she really did think about just abandoning everything. And then Battler showed up, and she decided to give him one chance to earn her forgiveness and keep her from leaving. I wonder if she was originally thinking that she could pass off Kinzo's burnt corpse as her own.
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2011-11-15, 04:23 | Link #3506 | ||
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i think. "only the actors can kill the character" Beatrice was a character so the culprit must be a actor . We only know one great actor in Rokkenjima and it was Yasu. Quote:
lastly, i think Beatrice disappeared because Battler didn't remembered her. This is the part that i just want to believe that happened in the series. I'll assume that Battler and Beatrice survive that incident. Battler happened to fall out of the boat because of his fear of falling then somehow got an amnesia when he hit some rocks. I think at some point in time Yasu killed the Beatrice persona and change to something else. She then wrote two stories and place it in the bottles after the incident. She gave it to a fisherman and paid him with money to lie how he found the message bottle. Then after that she help Toya find the truth by helping him write stories based on the two message bottles. When Battler finally realize the truth It was to late to apologize because beatrice was already dead. Who knows Maybe Yasu was the one who gave voice for Beatrice in Their forgeries and Killed the character off after what happened in Ep4. Now something came to mind. I think in EP7 Will was the representation of Toya. That's why Battler doesn't know about the existence of Ep7. This is kinda stupid but its possible that this happened in the end. Sorry Off topic there. Anyway, Why are you guys thinking that Yasu Died on the Rokkenjima? I don't get it. |
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2011-11-15, 04:42 | Link #3507 | ||||
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Yasu's story is so full of narrow chances and contrivances that it would take a TON of evidence to make it more plausible than "Shannon/Kanon had an uncertain gender identity, a good head for riddles and mysteries, and an active imagination." Bern's narration is not a ton of evidence. Quote:
Also, see above reply. "Dead" has a lot of possible meanings here. Quote:
Yasu could have faked death, but we have almost nothing that really suggests that as a clue, besides wishful thinking or magic. Bottles could have been tossed out before the incident, after all. Also, it's unclear how Yasu could have gotten off the island, and if they lived in Kuwadorian, well, that's another can of worms. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's exactly the kind of complicated hypothesis that needs evidence to back it up. Even "Yasu never existed" strikes me as more plausible than "Yasu is alive." Last edited by WitchOfDoubt; 2011-11-15 at 04:53. |
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2011-11-15, 05:40 | Link #3508 | ||
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I don't know how she might have survived but consider this things. She had been living there on rokkenjima her whole life. Do you think she don't know anything about the island? she even used some explosive to blow something up. The fact that she knows about the explosive means that she also knows about the existance of the military base. The base have tunnels that she can use and possibly hide some sort of boat in there. About the message bottle. If the message bottles was tossed out before the incident ."Why was Battler included in the story"? Don't you think that it's weird. Battler was absent in rokkenjima for 6 years( i think, i totaly forgot). why would she add a person that wasn't in the island for so long? For me it's make more sense if the message bottle was created after the incident. |
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2011-11-15, 12:58 | Link #3509 | |||
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The question is not possibility, but likelihood. Quote:
"If someone HAD decided to add Battler to the story at the last minute, what would the story look like?" Yasu was unaware of Battler's impending arrival until a few weeks or days before it happened, and hastily wrote him into the message bottles. Alternative: Yasu didn't ever expect Battler to return, and put him in the story before distributing the bottles in order to 'show him the truth' on the slim chance that the bottles were found. If Battler was a major part of Yasu's motive, it would be impossible to tell the story fairly without including him. What, exactly, does Battler DO that affects the plot of the first bottle? For that matter, what does non-Meta-Battler do that affects the plot of the second bottle? One of my first hypotheses was "Battler was not on Rokkenjima." I think that I can resurrect this one as Yasu did not expect Battler to be on Rokkenjima, and so the non-forged bottles were initially written as if he were not even there. The alternative: all bottles were forged, much to Ange's unhappiness. |
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2011-11-15, 13:17 | Link #3510 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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This is the start of a conversation in episode 7 between Will and Claire about how the Rokkenjima accident happens because Battler returns not because he left. And that if he returned any other year there'd still have been an event it just would have been a lot smaller because 1986 is for some reason the worst year for him to return. Yasu didn't have to know when he would come back. She'd have written the stories with the premise that he came back even if he never did. |
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2011-11-15, 14:18 | Link #3511 | |||||
The True Culprit
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Is Yasu in cahoots with Rudolf?
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2011-11-16, 02:49 | Link #3512 | |||||
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I agree on the probable parts, but... Yasu's grasp on reality is not exactly firm. I wonder about the secret blood relationship to Kinzo. In prior episodes, it's been strongly hinted that when a person hears someone tell them exactly what they want to hear, that this is likely to be Fantasy. Wouldn't Yasu want to have a story that explains why they are treated so differently? It could be for some reason that is terrible and unchangeable and sad, or it could be that they're the secret heir, the true heir, Beatrice. Quote:
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2011-11-16, 03:09 | Link #3513 | |||
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I think we can dismiss the Rudolf/Kyrie angle precisely on the basis that Bernkastel, the villain, was the one to bring it up.
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2011-11-16, 04:21 | Link #3514 | |||
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Let's assume, for the moment, that there was a child that Kinzo passed off to Natsuhi, and even that this child was his. This child needn't have actually been Yasu. What if Yasu heard the story of a tragedy on the cliff from someone and made up a role from that point on? Yasu does seem to be big on jumping into existing stories and taking them on. Also, what a person fantasizes is not necessarily only what they "want" in a positive sense. They might also fantasize horrible things that they also "want" out of self-hatred. Also... Quote:
If they could convince Kinzo that Yasu was the dead child, and Genji gave away the answer to the riddle to Yasu... They could effectively control the entire fortune by controlling Yasu, who seemed passive, manipulable, and gullible. Maybe this scheme actually worked. Genji tricked Yasu and Kinzo into believing a lie in order to get control of the gold.... he is truly a demon. Quote:
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2011-11-16, 04:40 | Link #3515 | ||
The True Culprit
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2011-11-16, 11:09 | Link #3516 | ||
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Also, a Gamemaster might throw in wild ideas but it has to be somehow in the Canon of the body of work you are writing in...so she can't just create that baby out o thin air. And like AT said, Bern did try her "best" to uncover the truth, though she wanted to do it in an entertaining "don't ever bore us" kinda way...which screwed with the presentation. Quote:
Genji could gain from using Yasu as a way to control Kinzôs fortune and would also secure his position. He is also said to "wait for his final resting place in the Golden Land, but that an obstinate persons foolishness took that from him" in EP2 TIPs...so that would imply that he actually wanted to die but Yasu somehow prevented that from happening. So the fact that the baby he prepared and raised to carry out his wish would prevent his dream to come true...that could actually lead to a good motive. Also Genji seems to have been the only one who knew of the exact location of the gold chamber, but he has no way to actually take control over it so that could probably angry him as well... The problem is that No servant is allowed to be the culprit and Genji the butler clearly is a servant. Though I'd say that he is probably guiltier than he appears to be. |
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2011-11-16, 22:05 | Link #3517 | |
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Yasu wasn't even portray in any stories up until ep7. She also wasn't said to be dead in red truth. Only the two characters that she played actually died and there's always the "illusion to illusion" thing in every death of those two characters. SO with that its possible that the character shannon/kanon died but not the actor who played them. Even Will said to lion that the actor can be still be alive even though the character that the actor played died. Those two death was just a fake and yasu can even revive them at anytime just like what we saw in Ep3 so.. Take That! |
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2011-11-17, 01:07 | Link #3518 | |
The True Culprit
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The rest of what you said is totally irrelevant. Spoiler:
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Last edited by AuraTwilight; 2011-11-17 at 01:37. Reason: Spoiler button needs to work >:( |
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2011-11-17, 01:10 | Link #3519 | |
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ಠ_ಠ |
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2011-11-17, 03:16 | Link #3520 | ||
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Spoiler for :
i admit i got that wrong. But my point still stand. |
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