Attack on Titan - Episode 24 Discussion / Poll

[lateraldeath]

Originally Posted by ZeMaverick

Incompetent in the overall or real picture of things.For the people within the wall i.e. everyone except recon corps, his behavior was fine. That rivalry stuff was not letting the recon corps get their hands on Eren because they he seems them as 'radicals' or 'loonies' depending on your sub...
...messing things up and doing something he thinks is wasteful or stupid (sending Eren out of the walls and not removing the symbol of hope)

On another subject, do you think the King created and continues the fund the recon corps because they are a failure. Why keep dissenters who can cause trouble within the walls when you can send 'em out to die? Either that or he really is trying to help humanity. Way too early to say though since the show focuses on soldiers.

Since Niles holding Erwin at gun point in ep 24 isn't canon, my conversation below will be based purely on ep 14 in the courtroom.

Not sure what you mean by overall or real picture of things. But my argument is, the people are only able to seek short term satisfaction of erasing the fear and live in the temporary haven (considering Trost, not even that much of a Haven anymore). A commander of an entire 1/3 of the human army shouldn't be allowed to be stuck in this same enclosed mindset, and listen to the little whims of the civilians who often base their opinions on incomplete information. That's what I mean by incompetent. Who cares if his decision SEEMS normal to civilians or his MP subordinates, if it's wrong move it's the wrong move, and Niles has just as much info as the other leaders in order to make the correct, unpopular one. The Recon Corp is entirely unpopular throughout history of mankind until recently. If Erwin or any of the previous leaders listened to all that crap the people give them the recon corp would be gone already, instead of being the unit closest to saving mankind. As a leader you are SUPPOSE to think bigger pictures, and even you admit Niles can't. Risking losing Eren beyond the walls? Eren is a 15m giant that can regenerate, give me a break, the risk of losing him (at the time not knowing about the FT) is near 0 compared to the 100% chance of losing him from dissection. We are not shown what he is like as a leader in other respects so I'll refrain from commenting on that but he's clearly incompetent at least in his decision with Eren.

I don't think we'll ever get to see the king or any of his political reasoning. But the fact that the recon corp still exist to this day despite the unpopularity means that the king, like I said above, can see the bigger picture and know they need the Recon Corp instead of listening to the civilians that want them gone. A lot of failures happen before success happens. And right now the Recon corp, despite expedition 57's seemly failure, is actually taking another step forward because now they know about FT and internal spys against the humans. Besides, what kind of "trouble" can the people of Recon Corp cause in the walls? To begin with, a lot of these people became who they are AFTER joining the recon Corp. Hanji used to be scared of titans like everyone else and Levi was just a thug. Recon corp is a place that breeds and gives dissenters the power to do something about their views. If he doesn't like them then he should just disbanded the recon corp, all the corp members will simply become civilians again, and they can cause no more trouble than the wall worshipers at best, instead of "wasting" lots of tax money and lives.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

For added drama, they were lovers, and Armin didn't hesitate one bit! Because He can make the choice that no one else can make, the right choice. He's the hero Shiganshina the walled cities need, not the one they deserve.

facepalm, and lawl! XD

[Guido]

Three consecutive weeks I didn't lay posts for episodes that gave me a deep lesson to study, ponder, and analyze, and I'm not going to let laziness get the better of me in this one.


Shingeki no Kyojin manages to sear into the audiences' psyche a quintessential lesson that no matter what we do or struggle we cannot overturn it; nothing else in the whole of universe can. The lesson is simplistic: The universe itself is cold, callous, relentless, and cruel. It cannot be changed; nature itself stays still.

Hence, all processes and events will continue to transpire and moving on whether we exist or not, whether we live or die, and whether we succeed or fail.

Denial is not just a coping mechanism but a fatal delusion of an illusionary placebo that numbs our perception of reality, and I'm not feeling to judge Eren for hesitating due to the fact that he couldn't buy Annie to be the Female Titan even if he witnessed her transformation in raw flesh.

At the same time, however, I did grasp Mikasa's perception of reality not only quite seriously, but gulped it down. People are dying and continue to die and to hold victory, not only just stroke or grasp it, then Eren really has to shake off his compassion in order to be willing to take the actions that he'll regret the least to achieve the sacrifice that will ensure victory.

In the previous episode, I began to hold onto feelings of understanding and compassion for Annie, and after she turns to Female Titan and brutally murders the forces that stand in her way, then it has become difficult and plainly hard for me to empathize wih her.
At this point, the audience and viewers do not know anything about her motivations that drove her to lie to her companions and did what she must. We do have the right to judge her, but at the same time let's not judge Annie too critically and harshly. She has his reasons and coupled with the madness of that world she lives in it, that makes her a multi-layered and also interesting character along with the rest of the members that compose the main cast.

[lateraldeath]

Originally Posted by Guido

In the previous episode, I began to hold onto feelings of understanding and compassion for Annie, and after she turns to Female Titan and brutally murders the forces that stand in her way, then it has become difficult and plainly hard for me to empathize wih her.

It's interesting you had empathy for her in 23 but then not 24. She has killed a lot before 23, what made the difference in 24 that she hasn't already done previously. Not to mention 24 are pretty much just all fodder characters she killed. Or is it simply just seeing the killing again?

[normp571]

Originally Posted by lateraldeath

Since Niles holding Erwin at gun point in ep 24 isn't canon, my conversation below will be based purely on ep 14 in the courtroom.

Not sure what you mean by overall or real picture of things. But my argument is, the people are only able to seek short term satisfaction of erasing the fear and live in the temporary haven (considering Trost, not even that much of a Haven anymore). A commander of an entire 1/3 of the human army shouldn't be allowed to be stuck in this same enclosed mindset, and listen to the little whims of the civilians who often base their opinions on incomplete information. That's what I mean by incompetent. Who cares if his decision SEEMS normal to civilians or his MP subordinates, if it's wrong move it's the wrong move, and Niles has just as much info as the other leaders in order to make the correct, unpopular one. The Recon Corp is entirely unpopular throughout history of mankind until recently. If Erwin or any of the previous leaders listened to all that crap the people give them the recon corp would be gone already, instead of being the unit closest to saving mankind. As a leader you are SUPPOSE to think bigger pictures, and even you admit Niles can't. Risking losing Eren beyond the walls? Eren is a 15m giant that can regenerate, give me a break, the risk of losing him (at the time not knowing about the FT) is near 0 compared to the 100% chance of losing him from dissection. We are not shown what he is like as a leader in other respects so I'll refrain from commenting on that but he's clearly incompetent at least in his decision with Eren.

I don't think we'll ever get to see the king or any of his political reasoning. But the fact that the recon corp still exist to this day despite the unpopularity means that the king, like I said above, can see the bigger picture and know they need the Recon Corp instead of listening to the civilians that want them gone. A lot of failures happen before success happens. And right now the Recon corp, despite expedition 57's seemly failure, is actually taking another step forward because now they know about FT and internal spys against the humans. Besides, what kind of "trouble" can the people of Recon Corp cause in the walls? To begin with, a lot of these people became who they are AFTER joining the recon Corp. Hanji used to be scared of titans like everyone else and Levi was just a thug. Recon corp is a place that breeds and gives dissenters the power to do something about their views. If he doesn't like them then he should just disbanded the recon corp, all the corp members will simply become civilians again, and they can cause no more trouble than the wall worshipers at best, instead of "wasting" lots of tax money and lives.



facepalm, and lawl! XD

How is it not "canon"? The anime and manga are two different medium. Something that is canon to the anime doesn't have to be canon to the manga. Also, remember these people are humans. Fear can sometimes lead people to do irrational things. Also, considering Eren would have probably been devoured if the members of the 114th hadn't been there I think its safe to say that there was a chance he could have been killed going out there in titan infested lands.

[Guido]

Originally Posted by lateraldeath

It's interesting you had empathy for her in 23 but then not 24. She has killed a lot before 23, what made the difference in 24 that she hasn't already done previously. Not to mention 24 are pretty much just all fodder characters she killed. Or is it simply just seeing the killing again?

You did not paid enough attention to my previous post. I said and quote, "it has become difficult and plainly hard for me to empathize wih her."

There's a world of difference to have difficulty or find it hard to feel empathy for someone in contrast to have no empathy at all.

Honestly, I'm of the opinion like Mikasa at feeling rage and burning with murder for all the carnage and chaos Annie wreaked havoc regardless if she's in her Titan form or not. However, the stories of this caliber like Shingeki no Kyojin, for example, have taught me that the world and settings are not convenient. This is not story for children where the world can be classified as good vs evil, or kind vs cruel, or white vs black.

I reserve my choice at judging Annie overly harshly and not pinning her as completely rotten and straightforwardly as some absolute evil character.

I have found through following this story that the characters, which aren't fodder BTW, are multi-layered and deep down have their own sets of skeletons hidden in their respective closets.
Annie's full picture about her motivations and drives that made her to embark in such scale of a carnage has not been deployed to such extent that I could pass full judgement on her. However, I can condemn her if only slightly for having lied to her comrades and abusing/misusing that trust. Nonetheless, again everything comes down to her purpose and motives, which at this point in the story remain undisclosed.

[BatouFTW]

Originally I loved this episode a lot, and I still do, but reflecting after watching 25, I returned to something that bugged me about Eren's dilemma. He clearly had the WILL to fight Annie, and was frustrated by his subconscious or emotions from carrying out his will. Yet there was another option open to him besides Titanshifting: to fight as a member of the recon corps. He could have gone out with his 3DMG, and used his skille as a near-elite fighter, backed up by inhuman regenerative ability that applies even when he is not in Titan form, alongside his comrades and loved ones. But he doesn't even think of this.

I think there is something deeper here about how Eren is in a way trapped by his powers, which stunt his potential development in other ways... which is a very realistic thing when you look at what happens to people with extraordinary gifts like talent or wealth in the real world. In other words, in some ways the most appealing Eren is the Eren who, as a lowly human (as far as he knows) does not hesitate to go into battle one on one against the colossal titan, with no guarantees, just the will to fight. I miss that Eren, and I hope to see that Eren re-emerge in some form as he comes to term with his powers.

[ZeMaverick]

Originally Posted by lateraldeath

.

Okay, I understand what you mean. Actually the MP's have only a small fraction of the army, not one third. Since they live in Wall Sina (and they aren't that big) they are heavily influenced by the little whims of the civilians unlike the reocn corps who have a castle in the middle of nowhere apparently. The garrison is by far the largest whilst the recon corps is the smallest, probably 1000 soldiers or so. And they would have been gone if the King hadn't continued to support and fund them. Not through Erwin giving up but lack of support.
He's the leader of the MP in the inner walls, the problems inside the wall are his duty, the outside is for those recon corps.
I wasn't suggesting he would die (I said wasteful or stupid), I was suggesting his exploits (even the fact he's going out to try further humanities survival/ the people's 'man') may further fuel the rebellion.

Yeah, the series focuses on the events of soldiers really, politics seems a side thing. Heck, even the whole 'mystery of the titans' feels slightly secondary to the immediacy of the soldiers situation in my opinion. An alternative reason that Orlo gave was that he kept them funded just as an empty gesture, 'we haven't given up on conquering and defeating the titans don't worry' sort of thing. I thought Hanji hated titans initially? In that case, dissenters include people who want to kill titans (stirring up people by fearmongering them into action). Otherwise I agree with what you said.

[lateraldeath]

Originally Posted by normp571

How is it not "canon"? The anime and manga are two different medium. Something that is canon to the anime doesn't have to be canon to the manga. Also, remember these people are humans. Fear can sometimes lead people to do irrational things. Also, considering Eren would have probably been devoured if the members of the 114th hadn't been there I think its safe to say that there was a chance he could have been killed going out there in titan infested lands.

I don't know the strict definition of canon so not going to comment but what I meant was that I was going to talk about story things strictly from the manga.

I never mentioned fear in regards to Niles, not sure why you brought this up.

As for Eren, you talk like Eren's going to go out the wall by himself and fight every single titan he sees like he did with Trost. Where as he actually will have the entire Recon corp, the best of the best titan killers with him, and their job is to avoid the Titans. Though my point was if he go out the wall, he only have a chance , a small chance (not counting FT) to die, where if he gets dissected the chance is 100%.

Originally Posted by Guido

You did not paid enough attention to my previous post. I said and quote, "it has become difficult and plainly hard for me to empathize wih her."

There's a world of difference to have difficulty or find it hard to feel empathy for someone in contrast to have no empathy at all.

Actually I think you misunderstood my question. You said "in the previous episode" which I assume you mean ep 23, you started feeling compassion towards Annie. At that point she already killed a bunch of people yet you felt compassion. That's fine. My question was why did ep 24 change that, she didn't do anything different compared to ep 17-21 which is killing everything in her way. If your "previous episode" mean before she turned titan to begin with in ep 17, then please ignore my question.

Originally Posted by ZeMaverick

Okay, I understand what you mean. Actually the MP's have only a small fraction of the army, not one third. Since they live in Wall Sina (and they aren't that big) they are heavily influenced by the little whims of the civilians unlike the reocn corps who have a castle in the middle of nowhere apparently. The garrison is by far the largest whilst the recon corps is the smallest, probably 1000 soldiers or so. And they would have been gone if the King hadn't continued to support and fund them. Not through Erwin giving up but lack of support.
He's the leader of the MP in the inner walls, the problems inside the wall are his duty, the outside is for those recon corps.
I wasn't suggesting he would die (I said wasteful or stupid), I was suggesting his exploits (even the fact he's going out to try further humanities survival/ the people's 'man') may further fuel the rebellion.

Yeah, the series focuses on the events of soldiers really, politics seems a side thing. Heck, even the whole 'mystery of the titans' feels slightly secondary to the immediacy of the soldiers situation in my opinion. An alternative reason that Orlo gave was that he kept them funded just as an empty gesture, 'we haven't given up on conquering and defeating the titans don't worry' sort of thing. I thought Hanji hated titans initially? In that case, dissenters include people who want to kill titans (stirring up people by fearmongering them into action). Otherwise I agree with what you said.

That's a good point about the MP's size, since only 10 ppl from each trainee can join, forgot about that. I think the empty gesture is probably the most likely scenario prior to Shiganshina got invaded. Hanji mentioned her shift in attitude to Eren when they were talking alone at night in ep 15 and Eren asked her why she has no fear for Titans.