2008-03-19, 06:49 | Link #1042 | |
~ I Do ~
Author
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: In the XV-8A Spartan "00"
Age: 38
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@Ark: He could be wrong, and I'll be h4xxed to death.
But if that is the case, that means Redemption can bring a person back to life, as long as his Linker Core hasn't dispersed, at least in my fanon scripture, that's where the soul resides. And it's not that h4xx either. OMG Ark of all people, I never expected to make Khrack out of you! *runs at ludicrious speed* Quote:
But you can tell that I was aiming at Redemption/Resurrection I hope.
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2008-03-19, 07:17 | Link #1043 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
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I suppose they might let you get away with it, but only if you self-censor. If you have them salvage a core that's dead for days ... I can see a quick shafting coming onto your OCs. Stick to hours after brain death, extending to maybe a single day if the mage is uber-strong, and write a great story, and they might just let it pass. And please don't write "Resurrection Ability: SS" - that will just get all of them onto your characters like flies. |
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2008-03-19, 08:13 | Link #1044 | |
~ I Do ~
Author
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: In the XV-8A Spartan "00"
Age: 38
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However, you made me think that Redemption might be able to bring a person back a few hours beyond the Golden Hour, and even with brain death, the healing administered by a well-trained priest specialized in trauma and intensive care, vital signs are all they need to nurse said person back to health. I think this is the reason would explain if resurrection was available to Alicia, why it was unable to be used on her, as she was dead for too long that even magic can't save her. And yes having grown up there, I know how to survive in my own backyard. *remembers how everyone jumped on Thomas Kluize's rank X, when he's perfectly defeatable by an S rank* That's why I never bother to quantify my OCs completely, I just limit them using logic and common sense. Thanks for the tip anyway. :3 EDIT: I just realized this just fundamentally changed Midchilda's definition of clinical death! And instead of Golden Hour, they have Golden Hours! As fitting of a magically advanced society, it is only right that their people have much higher survivability in trauma than people of the backward 97th!
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2008-03-19, 14:48 | Link #1045 |
Adeptus Animus
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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Wait wait wait, Ark, you are constantly complaining about realism and yet you suddenly handwave Zest's resurection with unbased theories and 'it's magic' handwavium that violate medical laws?
Where on earth is the logic in that? I mean, if you can handwave Golden Hour (thanks for the term Kha, didn't know what that was called exactly) why can't we handwave impact survivabillity? Or -far more realistically- animation choices versus statements? |
2008-03-20, 02:53 | Link #1046 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Since Zest supposedly came back from the death, whatever theory we make up has to accomodate that. Sure, we could pull a Kikaifan and say he wasn't being literal (effectively rejecting the fix), but Maximum Data Retention. So, assume he really DID come back from the dead, we have a problem. His body's dead and from biology we know his neurons are going fast without oxygen. It'll actually have been a greater violation of physics if he was somehow brought back from the dead at that point without the linker core because as the novel logically points out - part of the information is lost upon death, and that's why revival is impossible. The only chance he may have is if his data is still available somewhere - and since his body is dead and his neurons are going, the only place the data might still be available is his linker core, which we already know (thanks to A's) holds information. Cloning and memory transfer is also well established (it basically is the whole premise of Fate). So at least we didn't have to invent a new element, much less Explosive Reactive Barrier Jackets. |
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2008-03-20, 04:22 | Link #1047 |
Adeptus Animus
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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I never supported the 'explosive reactive Barrier Jackets' though.
However, turn that around towards the Barrier Jacket discussion. We know that Barrier Jackets generate barriers. We know that the cast can survive getting thrown through buildings. Simplest possible logic says the Barrier Jackets protect them. Best thing is, it doesn't rely on 'maybes' that happen 'in dust clouds' in 'thousands of seconds' |
2008-03-20, 05:42 | Link #1048 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Why do you think ATC tried his silly Explosive Reactive Barrier Jacket? Because he knows that there is no way that BJ could have plausibly saved Fate. He just hasn't thought it through enough, so his solution simply causes new problems without really solving the old ones. Frankly, I don't understand what this resistance to actively and cleverly using barriers and mundane physical laws is. It is simple. It doesn't require new physical handwavium. Heck, ATC's theory already conceded that his Special Protects only work if the guy's conscious, how far is that from a Active Defense! Its only really bad part is that activation was unseen, but since that will be true of any system that saved Fate (presumably all shrouded in smoke), this is hardly a specific disadvantage. |
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2008-03-20, 16:58 | Link #1049 |
Sleep beneath the flowers
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Lording above all of humanity >;3
Age: 34
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Maybe we're looking at it wrong. What if the jacket itself is a permanent barrier? Because Fate was hit through five stories (give or take) of what appears to be steel-reinforced concrete at an extremely high speed without even getting a scratch.
Which given that means no weapon in Earth (Aside from something overkill) is going to be able to so much as scratch the barrier jacket. And speedwise... Mages are fast enough that no one on Earth should be able to hit them (At least high-ranking ones like Nanoha)
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2008-03-20, 17:50 | Link #1050 |
NERV Personnel
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Wasn't it considered that the jackets aren't the true protection barrier of the mage, but rather they generate a protective field of sorts to prevent significant harm from, say, being hurled through a wall? (Wikipedia lists the red gems in Nanoha's BJ as Field Generators) Of course there are the incidents where mages have received damage to their physical being and barrier jackets, but the majority of the cases occurred by some magic-enhanced attack designed to pierce said barrier (Fate's Scythe Slash in S1 cut part of Nanoha's BJ), attack of significant magical power, when the mage was weakened from prolonged combat/magic use, or by a surprise attack. It also hasn't been confirmed if the field generated is attuned for physical encounters or both magical and physical. The field generation system of the barrier jacket might also not be always active, but reactive. If a mage is tossed toward something physical, they know they're gonna hit it, so it activates (like when Fate fought Signum in the desert in A's or any time they got flung through a building). Rather if they get attacked by surprise, the field is inactive. This might be to reduce the strain on the mage's Linker Core from keeping the field active constantly.
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2008-03-20, 18:23 | Link #1052 |
Sleep beneath the flowers
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Lording above all of humanity >;3
Age: 34
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Friend wrote this, I'm posting it
Went to someone as equally geeky as me to support my argument. Barrier Jackets – as their name implies – create a protective barrier around the mage. The manga states this right out. The actual composition of the clothing is doesn’t matter because the protection is generated magically. Spoiler for proof:
And yeah, I agree with Xgouki, even if your barrier jacket’s on you wouldn’t have the barrier up all the time because it would drain your mana. Better to keep it off until you get into a fight.
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2008-03-20, 20:52 | Link #1053 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
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I find it amazing that you can give such credit to that soft, thin thing (I'm not just talking about the visible portions, but the whole complex) despite them being penetrated by bug airblast, whips, hands ... etc.
As for speed, their usual combat speeds are slow. Even their best (probably in a Flash Move equivalent) is only around 70-100m/s. I find it amazing how people are willing to twist and turn rather than admit an active defense that actually has distance and toughness in the equation. You are willing to say that Fate had to manually activate the barrier jacket's optional defense to save herself from being slammed into the building, but not that she activated a barrier magic that can be extended from the body? Yes, but the very nature of the complex (and not only the cloth) is such that it is unlikely to be awfully protective, and the show bears it out - they keep getting cut, stabbed ... etc. As for manual activation, see above. |
2008-03-20, 21:13 | Link #1054 |
Truth Martyr
Author
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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Okay, so lemme ask something, arc. All the times teh BJs have been penetrated have been cuts, stabs, cutting thimajigs.
So why not this compromies? BJs protect against impact/blunt force trauma, but lack protection against cutting damage. To take your analogy of kevlar a few pages back as a jumping off point, here's my take. The BJ protects against impact damage via magic. It could be field, it could be a barrier. Whatever, it protects against impact and blunt force trauma, much like how a Kevlar "soft vest" protects against impact and bullets. However, because of the "composition" of the defenses, being tuned to protecting against blunt force trauma, this means that BJs are vulnerable to cutting damage from knives, swords, magical bug wings, bigass knife hook things, etc. Before y'all start yelling at me on this, body armor - at least those sold to civillian law enforcement - consists of 2 types: "bulletproof" vests and stab vests. Due to differences in internal construction, bulletproof vests can be penetrated by knives (I've seen pics of a Gerber Mk II being punched through a Level II vest and into the ballistic gel dummy wearing the vest), but protect against bullets. Stab vests meanwhile protect against knife stabs and cuts but do not protect against gunshots. (Military Class IV vests, used by the US Army and Marines, protect against both threats to a fair degree: while a knife may penetrate the soft outerlayer of the vest, it'll have a difficult time penetrating the hard protective plate.) ...OC-wise, this makes the OFM Assault Platoon look even smarter than before What with using magically strengthend body armor on their jackets. On Zest, I was always on the impression that he was revived within the Golden Hour after he flatlined. Also, Ark, regarding the long posts you made on OCS and PME, I have only this to say: Thank you for doing my work for me and proving my point. All I wanted was for you to admit that the Aces went to OCS and that PME exists. The disputable effectiveness of their PME is something I wholeheartedly agree with. As well as the fact that they suck. And that Fate probably didn't have the right mindset for an XO to begin with. Also, Assistant Commander and Executive Officer are typically interchangeable terms, though in Western contexts, Assistant Commander is typically used for high-level commands, while Executive Officer is the more common term.
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2008-03-20, 22:08 | Link #1055 | ||
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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Second, you'll notice that Kevlar is softer than say steel or the harder materials that make up a stab vest, but compared to a BJ, it is quite hard and tough. It is also THICK. You won't be seeing many things made of a healthy thickness of Kevlar fluff around like BJs do. When you are as soft and thin as a BJ, you won't be doing much to decelerate any kind of impact - kind of like a T-shirt. Quote:
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2008-03-20, 22:45 | Link #1056 | ||
Truth Martyr
Author
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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Regarding the thickness, it could be that it's a tactical decision. Note that Midchildan aerial combat is very movement-heavy; having lots of mass would seriously be a disadvantage. It's quite possible that the idea is to use dedicated Shields and Barriers to tank magical and other attacks, leaving the BJ to protect from sudden blunt force trauma as last ditch defense. What surprises me, Ark, is that I'm merely making a modest effort to explore TK's theory which you have agreed with and you're saying it does not work. Make up your mind. Quote:
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2008-03-21, 01:37 | Link #1057 | |||||
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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The complex is additive, so one of the three components can "win" the requisite "points", or two of them added together or even all three. So when I say a BJ is soft, I mean that Cloth + Barrier + Field together cannot make it hard, so the wind flips it about. When I say it doesn't defend against whips and windblast, it means that the combination together can't do it. When I say it is thin, I mean the aggregate thickness, too. Quote:
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For one thing, as Tshoryuu pointed out, it is basically a magicobabble device. So any theory involving one automatically has ten handwavium points. It is a magicobabble device that requires more precision than say, antigrav - forces on each atom have to be equalized. For another thing, the forces a ship inertial compensator (the usual sci-fi scenario of inertial dampening) has to apply in normal accelerations are relative simple. Thrust pushes at back, things start flying backwards (reaction) so apply force towards the forward direction to compensate. But now, let's say you hit rock. What kind of forces do you apply? Note that your molecules, starting from the ones that hit rock first, are being compressed and effectively being shoved backwards (reaction from the floor), the direction they would go under an acceleration, so the inertial compensation will compensate by firing forward (in the direction of travel, which is harder into the dirt!) The dirt resists more, the compensator fires harder ... etc. Meanwhile, a little aft, things that are not yet compressed may be thrown foward (as in normal deceleration). The compensator in those sections fires backward. So, your inertial compensator will unpredictably thrust some parts of your body forward and others aft, all at thousands of Gs (because the BJ is very thin, all delta-Vs have to be handled in extremely small distance and time frames, thus forcing the use of immense forces and accelerations). Does that sound like a great combination? Quote:
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2008-03-22, 01:07 | Link #1058 | |||||
Truth Martyr
Author
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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Also, I note something you overlooked: when I said the BJ is like Kevlar, I did not say "Made of Kevlar". I said "like Kevlar" in function. It is the magical equivalent of a Class II Kevlar soft vest, in that it is intended to provide last ditch light protection against magic. Quote:
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And you're not much help. One moment AIs are really smart, then the next you say they're not that smart. Also, remember Rein is small. Scale up the bug and her appropriately to human size. Quote:
...wait, what about the Barrier and field deploying as an airbag? I mean, airbags autodeploy, they don't deploy manually, and it could be a working solution. BJ deploying a magical airbag. :P Quote:
Say I'm translating "Fukuchou" into Bahasa Malaysia. In Malaysia, we have the malay equivalents of the terms you tossed on, so I use the malay versions. Thus there's Timbalan Kapten (actual Navy title, though the Army is moving away to Pegawai Eksekutif and Pegawai Pemerintah), or as you mentioned your other example, Ketua and Penolong Ketua (fun fact, the formal title for an Army Corporal in Malaysia is Penolong Ketua Seksyen - Assistant Section Leader/Chief - while Sergeant is Ketua Seksyen - Section Leader/Chief. ...both are still called Corporal and Sergeant, however. (Or rather, "Korperal" and "Serjan".) But if it's in english, then god the headaches in keeping it all ngam. *sighs* As for Nanoha's ranks and stuff, I'd always thought that they were 7arcs making new ranks using the JSDF as a basis. *looks up at thread* ...to be honest, I'll state my position here again. BJs protect against impact collision, are vulnerable to physical weapons, aka SWORDS, are NOT tuned for physical protection apart from collision mitigation, and are the magical equivalent of a Level I or a Level II vest which means that you still need to sues barriers and shields for tanking, and while they may or may not stop pistol rounds, BJs cannot tank 14.5mm APFSDS rounds from the Halo 3 sniper rifle or the .45ACP rounds from The Holy Pistol made by Saint John Moses Browning from the plans he received from God over the Mountain amd The Lord saw the Pistol and Blessed it for .45ACP and 1911 is a Holy Union from which ye shall not stray for Being Blessed of the Lord the .45ACP shall Never Shrinketh. So the 1911 in .45ACP came to pass, and it was good, and the righteous therefore smote the minions of evil, as the Lord had intended. The whole point? It's a Magical Girl Show. MAGICAL GIRL Lyrical Nanoha. Explore it as much as you want but don't overdo it like ark is doing. As long as it works, it's good enough for meI mean, pilots, tank crews, soldiers, only know enough about their weapons to use them and tell if something's not working. They leave the indepth innards to the repair specialists. And I think you all should note something: I'm the only person in this thread who wins REGARDLESS of whether Shou or Ark or Myself scores victory in the great debate. MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
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Last edited by Wild Goose; 2008-03-22 at 01:22. |
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2008-03-22, 01:57 | Link #1059 | |
"Begin, the operation!"
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*facepalm*
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