[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Marion]

I still feel the George/Shannon dynamic is just odd. What I mean is why did George fall in love with her? He even says that he met her a few times in the family conference but suddenly just noticed her only day and began liking her. That's just weird to me. Shannon views him as a prince charming, but with George we don't really know why he just started to like her, considering they only see each other once a year.

As far as the 'deepness' between Kanon/Jessica, I really just get more of a teen love feel from it, since they are teenagers. Know how many girls in my school have a boyfriend and say it's the deepest thing they've ever experienced. 2 months later they break up and, although she feels sad, she eventually moves on and dates another boy and says the same thing. It can develop into something deeper, sure, but both of them are still kids.

And because George cries he's suspicious. Most times he's trying to hold in his tears, like when they discover Rudolf, Kyrie and Hideyoshi's bodies in EP 3.

[momobunny]

There was also the scene when Beatrice attacked George and Shannon... if I remember correctly, Shannon made that barrier, while George was on the ground cowering in fear or something (bad memory, please correct me if that's wrong)... however, I found that a little odd, it might just be a character flaw, but I thought it'd be better if he at least TRIED to protect Shannon. I'm not really sure what to think of them as a couple, but I'd hate it if Shannon's love was just one-sided. In Episode 4 George shows that he'd kill everybody else for Shannon, I'm not really sure what to think of this though... it might mean that he really loves her, or maybe he has some ulterior motive.

But I do agree that he seems too "perfect" and unsuspicious to be COMPLETELY innocent. ^^;

[urusai]

Originally Posted by liia

Spoiler for eps 1-4, WARNING TEXT WALL:

-'Beatrice' is a person connected to Battler's past. She may have also had some connection to Maria and Ange.
-She realized the truth about the murders on Rokkenjima, but everyone was dead and there was nothing she could do. In desperation, she made a wish that she could show the truth to Battler and have him uncover the culprit for the murders.
-Seeing the potential for an interesting game, LD gave her the powers of a witch, and Bern let her travel through kakera (?). They would let her repeat the events of October 1986, each with different circumstances that hinted at the truth.
-However, there was a condition. She had to pretend to be Battler's enemy, the cruel Endless Witch responsible for all the crimes, and could not reveal her true identity or motive to him. Also, until the game ended, both she and Battler would be trapped inside the endlessly repeating world.

Judging from ep5 where

Spoiler for EP5:

Battler assumes the role of the game master with the blessings of Lamdadelta

could the same thing have happened...

Spoiler:

with Virgilia and Beato? As in, Virgilia (Kumasawa?) being the original Beatrice (and GM), while Beato was a player who later took Virgilia's place, again with Lamdadelta's blessing. This in turn suggests the game was already going on with different players before Battler gets 'promoted' from piece to player

Grasping at straws here, don't mind me...

[Kitsu]

As far as the 'deepness' between Kanon/Jessica, I really just get more of a teen love feel from it, since they are teenagers. Know how many girls in my school have a boyfriend and say it's the deepest thing they've ever experienced. 2 months later they break up and, although she feels sad, she eventually moves on and dates another boy and says the same thing. It can develop into something deeper, sure, but both of them are still kids.

Like I said I only got that feeling in the beginning were it seemed a lot like a "stupid crush" for me. You know all like "he is so cute"-thingy but later on (which was in the magic scenes! so not really "true") it felt like they really cared for each other. In a more deep way, they understodd each other (like beato once said in Ep 2) Instead to cry for her parents to help her she started to cry for Kanon in Ep 3. In Ep 4 she was willing to die just so he could life on. I think that's more than the teen love. It seems a lot that their relationship devolped step by sstep through the different worlds. But if magic doesn' exists the devolpment doesn't exists so we are back to teen love. But if I remember correctly a deep cut into that tenn love thingy came with rejection of Kanon. I think that was the point were she, no he as well started to really care for each other.

And because George cries he's suspicious. Most times he's trying to hold in his tears, like when they discover Rudolf, Kyrie and Hideyoshi's bodies in EP 3.

Well if George's suspicious cause he cries a lot, then you have to suspect Jessica as well. She cries a lot as well. But she feels a bit like a red herring doesn't she

if I remember correctly, Shannon made that barrier, while George was on the ground cowering in fear or something

Actually he was being attacked by golden butterflies. And well he was really surprised and shocked by all of the magic stuff, tough in ep 4 he wasn't that shocked and just beat the crap out of Goats.


The more oyu look at it the more it fels that all character devolped through the different worlds and always "learned" something in it without clearly remembering the worlds.

[momobunny]

Originally Posted by Kitsu

Actually he was being attacked by golden butterflies. And well he was really surprised and shocked by all of the magic stuff, tough in ep 4 he wasn't that shocked and just beat the crap out of Goats.

Ahh that makes sense then, it's been a while since I played EP2. :3

He still seems suspicious to me though. >.>

[marebito]

While I don't dislike Shanon and George as characters I do understand Kanon and Jessica's relationship more. They kind of have the same problem but Jessica learned to deal with it to a certain extent. Kanon kind of admires her for her strength while she wants to help him to do the same thing for himself (some general teen love included of course). However he also regards her with envy and he doesn't have any self-confidence because of his status and that's where the whole relationship fails while everything works out perfect (until the murders begin) for George and Shanon which makes them quite boring for me. They are both too perfect in their own way.

Ah, since this thread is for speculation... IMO George is so unsuspicuous that it doesn't even make him suspicious again... I can't think of any believable motive at the moment, even Shanon is more suspicious, especially since EP5 (I didn't say that I myself do think of her as the culprit or something close to that). I know, there are other characters that also don't have a clear motive right now, but at least those characters are suspicious enough because of certain facts and events.

[Kitsu]

everything works out perfect (until the murders begin) for George and Shanon which makes them quite boring for me. They are both too perfect in their own way.

I totally understand that, but it's kinda funny if you are lucky and things work out for you you are not loved by the fans but if you fail you are loved xDD A yay for unhappy people since they are more interesting

[marebito]

Originally Posted by Kitsu

A yay for unhappy people since they are more interesting

Seconded. More interesting and more realistic... or the latter due to the first.

[Nifty]

Originally Posted by Kitsu

A yay for unhappy people since they are more interesting

And usually get the most satisfying ending.
Just watch. I will lol semi-sadistically if George/Shannon turns to dust or was fake all along or something along those lines.

[Kitsu]

I will lol semi-sadistically if George/Shannon turns to dust or was fake all along or something along those lines.

I would feel really bad! And I think Kanon/Jessi is more likely to get that end

[marebito]

Originally Posted by Nifty

And usually get the most satisfying ending.
Just watch. I will lol semi-sadistically if George/Shannon turns to dust or was fake all along or something along those lines.

Spoiler for people who still don't know Higurashi:

If Umineko's last episode is the same perfect outcome as Higurashi's last hen, nothing like that will happen, though.

IMO the 2 pairs or whatever I should call them are one of the most unimportant/uninteresting aspects in the whole franchise anyway, so I don't really care...

[Kitsu]

IMO the 2 pairs or whatever I should call them are one of the most unimportant/uninteresting aspects in the whole franchise anyway, so I don't really care...

I think they belong the second most interesting part in the whole franchise, the part of character interactions. The reason, beside the complex mystery, I love Umineko.

[marebito]

Originally Posted by Kitsu

I think they belong the second most interesting part in the whole franchise, the part of character interactions. The reason, beside the complex mystery, I love Umineko.

Of course they belong there, but even regarding that part of the franchise there are more interesting characters for me (e.g. Battler, Ange, Rosa + Maria, Natsuhi... ).

This is getting too chit-chatty...

[momobunny]

While I can understand why JessicaXKanon might be interesting, I personally find GeorgeXShannon quite boring really. Like previously mentioned, they're too perfect and not much of a reason is given from George's point of view. ^^;

[Volcanic]

I believe I saw a theory on TVTropes once that George and Shannon really weren't in love, and the whole "too perfect" thing was the main basis of it. I have to admit, although George and Shannon are very cute, Kanon and Jessica are even more likable and cute in the eyes of most fans, including myself.

Also, an interesting note: with some minor additions, my theory from here still makes sense after EP5. I might have to edit it a little, but it's actually starting to make more and more sense 0_o

[Rias]

It's so much easier to "prove" something in magic...

[Counter Arts]

I stayed up all night trying to read as much as I can about EP5 but I still have a theory that I want to put out there.

Here it is. I'll be sleeping for 7 hours after this so I won't be able to reply. There are a bunch of things I glossed over I believe so feel free to poke holes in my theory.

Spoiler for Umineko EP1-5 theory: Original Culprit:

While I originally thought that Natsuhi did the first one, I decided to retrace my suspicions on Rosa.

Rosa was the original culprit. She had already solved the epitaph. Either that or she somehow swapped places with the original Rosa and the original Rosa died from falling off the rocks. She already knew everything about the gold but she doesn't believe that the siblings would allow her to have it.

Episode 1

While Rosa was dead by the end, she was not done in at the first twilight. Rosa was recognized by some of the servants as "Kinzo." She either lured all the initial victims to the shed and killed them there or the servants helped her. Rosa either with the help of Nanjo was considered dead. The body was hers alright but she was not dead. Of course she had the key as well.

Rosa killed the three in parlor and left Maria alive.

Rosa killed Natsuhi and then Rosa got killed by a trap somewhere else.

Battler triggered a trap at the painting and got the remaining killed.

Episode 2

Rosa had the keys and killed the first six after she was recognized as the next head in the chapel. Then she set up everything herself and Rosa could do it because she has the keys.

Episode 3

Rosa's plan got messed up when Eva also solved the riddle and that's why Eva met up with Rosa. Interesting how Rosa was "sacrificed" to give birth to the new witch when you check how she died.

Rosa did the same plan in the first twilight. Eva did the rest.

Episode 4

Rosa's plan got messed up and was probably close to EP1 how it worked. It just got messed up in the end.

Battler died by the trap in the Beatrice painting.

Extra comment: Maybe Maria was right about Rosa being the evil witch

[Klashikari]

1) Rosa was confirmed dead for Episode 1.
2) The shed is locked with a padlock. It is absolutely impossible, realistically speaking for someone to open the shed from the inside.
3) Rosa could absolutely not be able to kill George, Shannon and Gohda, let alone Kumasawa and Nanjo, nor Jessica and Kanon.

[HisuiRT]

My crazy Umineko theory

I am throwing out a theory about Umineko. I think it is a long shot but I am curious how well it stand up to scrutiny becuase I think it works but is sort of bonkers. Also I might be missing something super obvious that blows it out of the water. So here it goes. Tell me what you think:

Spoiler for My theory on the "killer" in Umineko:

The killer or at least the main killer for most of the murders in all the episodes of Umineko no Naku Koro ni is none other than Battler Ushiromiya. This is the trap of episode 5 and an elegant explanation.

Now you might say that this theory is wrong because in episode 5 we get the Red Text: Battler-kun is not the culprit. Battler-kun has not killed anyone. This is something that can be said for all games. But I think that is why this is the trap of episode five. I do not think this is a sign of the red text being wrong. I think it is a sign of the red text carefully misleading us. And more importantly the witches are misleading us and Battler with what I call the "accounting trick".

The accounting trick works like this: My crazy theory is there are 3 count them 3 people called Battler Ushiromiya. The first two are plainly obvious to us.

1. Meta-Battler Ushiromiya - The protagonist. The Battler who is playing against Beatrice. Mother unknown at this point. The character we have know all this time. First appears in the first Tea party and Episode 2.

2. “Our” Battler Ushiromiya – Battler on the Chessboard. The “real” world version of Meta-Battler Ushiromiya. Mother also unknown since 1 and 2 are basically the same person. We have seen this Battler from episode 1.

The important one is:

3. “Original” Battler Ushiromiya – my theory hinges on him being Asumu Ushiromiya son but not raised as Battler Ushiromiya. Everything is crazy speculation but it has a crazy elegance. He has been around since episode 1 but we have not seen him on screen as of yet as far as I know. My theory is he is on the island during the murders but has so far gone unseen. (Well we have seen him once on screen but not in a capacity that he would ever come up as Battler). I think the third Battler is the man we know as Juuza Amakusa.

My theory is that for some reason as of yet unknown to us someone (Maybe Rudolph, maybe Kyrie, maybe Kinzo, maybe someone else) decided to take the original baby named Battler Ushiromiya and replace him with the baby who would grow up to be the man we know as Battler Ushiromiya now. They were both given the name Battler Ushiromiya so they both count as Battler Ushiromiya despite what they may call themselves now.

Now here is now the accounting trick works and lets him be on the island when theoretically he should throw the number counts off.

We have a room with the following people in it.

“Our” Battler Ushiromiya, Juuza Amakusa, Jessica Ushiromiya, Maria Ushiromiya, George Ushiromiya.

If we play fair and not use the accounting trick the room count should be 5 people.
Battler
Juuza
Jessica
Maria
George

But since Juuza Amakusa was born Battler Ushiromiya according to my theory then we can list them like this (becuase we also know multiple people can go by the same name)
Battler
Battler
Jessica
Maria
George

And therefore we just eliminate the duplicate name and get
Battler
Jessica
Maria
George
Aka 4 people when there are 5 people in the room.

I could go into how it explains lots of things including who killed Jessica and Nanjo in episode 3. Who kills Battler in episode 4. And who kill the survivors in episodes 1 and 2.

There are still a bunch of holes that I can’t fill in because I don’t know
1. why this crazy switch would have been made
2. what and or who killed Asumu
3. what Battler’s sin is.

But if my theory is correct these are ALL very important questions that give a lot of motivation as to why Juuza Amakusa has decided to kill everyone in the Ushiromiya. Family. Because so far I have vague ideas but nothing even close to solid.

But “Our” Battler Ushiromiya never committed a murder and there for the red text is true becuase they never specify which Battler they are talking about becuase they have no reason to tell us that. “Original” Battler Ushiromiya aka Juuza Amakusa is a killer but they never have to bring that up.

There is a lot more to the theory but this is really long as it stands so I figured I would throw this out there and see what people think before I ramble on anymore. I fully concede that I might be WAY off base and therefore I might be missing some fact that utterly invalidates this. So I am throwing out the basic idea and seeing how well it stands up to scrutiny.

[Renall]

I'm not buying "accounting tricks." I will accept that if someone has the same name as someone else, it's theoretically possible for the red text to apply to one or the other in some unexpected way (though I don't personally think that any such instance exists). However, if there are two people, there are two people. The only way I can see this working is if, for instance, Asumu's son turns out to be someone like Kanon (a person who already exists on the island and is accounted-for). If there are two Battlers, but one has another name and is a person we already know, that's one thing. But some extra person is more or less impossible to justify without ridiculous tricks at this point. I don't think it's going to be that complicated or - let's be honest - that cheap.

I think you'd be better off applying your theory while targeting someone else as "the other Battler." But even if you did, it's still rather tricky to show anything substantive yet.

Still, couldn't Battler still be a mastermind? "Not the culprit" and "didn't kill anyone" don't necessarily exclude setting everything up. I think it's pretty much ridiculous that Battler could possibly be in any way involved, but if you want a crackpot theory, puppetmaster Battler is still theoretically valid. Sort of.