Military, Authority & Decisions In MSLN series

[dkellis]

Originally Posted by Icarus

Why does the Saint Church remind me of a monastery?

Originally Posted by raidou

They are probably religious brotherhood kind of organization with the knight as their offense power (in the past).Similar to medieval Britain(with their lords and such)

I wonder whether all velkan also has the same belief in the past.

Originally Posted by Nightengale

I dunno...They're self-governed, they don't seem all that large, but they have their share of influence and power.

I'm thinking it's like the Vatican.

Interesting. The Nanoha-DGz sub calls the place Hayate goes to meet Carim in episode 4 the "Belka-Governed Cathedral of the St. Monarch Church".

I'm wondering what the Church actually believes in, as in the root of their faith. If they're religious, then there has to be a religion, and very probably a sort of holy book (ie a Bible).

[Skane]

Originally Posted by dkellis

Interesting. The Nanoha-DGz sub calls the place Hayate goes to meet Carim in episode 4 the "Belka-Governed Cathedral of the St. Monarch Church".

I'm wondering what the Church actually believes in, as in the root of their faith. If they're religious, then there has to be a religion, and very probably a sort of holy book (ie a Bible).

Given their type of fighting style and the "flashbacks" of Signum's crew in the Sound Stages, their religion is somewhat like the Middle Ages when the Crusades were happening.

"Our God, or DEATH!"
"Destroy the infidels!"
"Burn the heretics!"

Of course, now that it is the modern age, their religion has most probably mellowed. Unless Carim is more of a fundamentalist than she lets on.

Natch.

[Anh_Minh]

"Cosplay or die, heathen!"

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Skane

Given their type of fighting style and the "flashbacks" of Signum's crew in the Sound Stages, their religion is somewhat like the Middle Ages when the Crusades were happening.

"Our God, or DEATH!"
"Destroy the infidels!"
"Burn the heretics!"

Of course, now that it is the modern age, their religion has most probably mellowed. Unless Carim is more of a fundamentalist than she lets on.

Natch.

You should see the OC thread, the Velkan Holy Church has someohow been turned into the Adaptus Astartes, golden throne and all.

Anyway, they could be worshipping an ideology instead of a being, too.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Skane

The only thing that bugs me about Hayate is her rank. In the real world, most people would be lucky to be a Captain at 19, let alone a LTC. Ah well, this is the TSAB, and Hayate did say that her Ancient Belken skills were factors in her insanely fast promotions.

Hayate was a Captain at age 15... so she basically went on to Major, then LTC in four years. Man, I hope she saved a lot of orphans during those years. At this rate, she will achieve General at a younger age than Chrono achieved Admiral.

Cheers.

In our real world, our first world military aren't recuriting 9yrs old either. hese have about 10 years worth or service time plus their careers are probably also on the fast track due thier skill and power. Chrono is a admiral and he is in his early 20s.

Originally Posted by dkellis

Random question:

What exactly is Saint Church a church of? What faith do they have?

I'm wondering if there's some extra information in a fanbook or something.

The Saint Church of Haruhi.

Their goal is to find Espers, Time Travelers, Aliens and Sliders. Which mesh quite well with the TSBA.

[Avatar_notADV]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

In our real world, our first world military aren't recuriting 9yrs old either. hese have about 10 years worth or service time plus their careers are probably also on the fast track due thier skill and power. Chrono is a admiral and he is in his early 20s.

But that's what we're saying - 10 years of service isn't enough to hit Lt. Colonel.

First, keep in mind that Hayate started off from nothing but a big ball of potential. She wasn't a combat veteran. She didn't even have a device. She couldn't be trusted to command her knights directly, given what had just happened. She'd cast a grand total of what, ONE spell in a combat situation. And, not to be rude, she was actually crippled at the time, even though it got better.

You get your commission as a 2nd Lt., then promotions go up 1st Lt., Captain, Major, Lt. Col., Colonel. Even if we admit Hayate directly to the service from the point her legs start working again, that means she's been promoted four times within nine years, which is -way- more than the average officer promotion rate in a real-world military, outside an airforce actually at war...

You can get a promotion as a reward for an act of heroism, certainly. But typically, the understanding is that you'll spend a longer time than usual at the next rank, because the military doesn't like having officers that are way younger (or older) than the norm for that rank. You don't generally want officers with less experience giving orders to officers of greater experience. (Of course, it's different between NCOs and officers, but that's part of the game.)

On top of that, once you're above Captain, it's not really a combat position - your administrative skills are almost as important as your leadership skills at that level. We'll grant Hayate a superior ability to organize, but is it so superior that her superiors were able to recognize it in a -young girl-? Enough to get them to approve her promotion? Especially knowing that, at this point, further staff promotions are inevitable - even if she's the worst Lt. Colonel in the service, she'll have the seniority to hit full bird before 30 and general before -40-?

I don't buy it. For me, that's enough evidence that the TSAB puts a heavy thumb on the scales for high ranking mages - that Hayate isn't a Lt. Colonel because she's a superior military administrator or combat leader, but because she's got that SS after her name.

Oddly, Nanoha and Fate are much more believable as Captains. For one thing, we know they were somewhat veteran before entering the service at all, y'know, from the first two seasons and all. ;p We know that Nanoha has gotten up to enough exploits to have picked up a nifty-keen nickname. And Captain is only two promotions up from where they would have entered at, assuming the TSAB was willing to admit them straight into the officer corps (reasonable, though again, it's purely deference to their abilities.) You can make captain by 30 if you start at 20 and work hard (and are lucky and see action, and Nanoha has all of that). So, starting at 10, okay, captain by 20 isn't toooooo much of a stretch.

Of course, all of this assumes a correlation with a Western-style system of commissioned military officers. If the TSAB starts its officers off at a different rank, results can vary widely. But keep in mind that the trainees that Nanoha and friends have on hand are all -privates-, so unless they're shortly to be promoted big-time, that makes the situation even worse.

[aldw]

Well, historically rapid promotions in the junior officer and enlisted ranks did occur in a variety of situations, such as the Napoleonic wars and the American Civil War, hell if the French could make a 19 year old girl a military leader anything can happen.

[Avatar_notADV]

Right, but that's -wartime- promotions. We can safely assume that nobody's killing off TSAB forces in job lots these days, else we'd probably have heard something about it (and, to put it bluntly, they wouldn't have been training all these episodes were that the case! ;p)

[Kha]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

The Saint Church of Haruhi.

Their goal is to find Espers, Time Travelers, Aliens and Sliders. Which mesh quite well with the TSBA.

That seemed quoted straight out of the inneudos in the OC thread.

[JayF]

Actually, The Singapore Army has a glut of Majors in the system. They got their ranks simply on the virtue of their studies. All of them are Majors, but now there are too many of them and they get stuck in the Ministry of Defence with nothing productive to do.

So yeah, plenty of twenty plus year old majors running around here. Most of them though eventually find a civilian post to go to. So say she already was on the fast track at 9, then completes her officer corp training at 11 and with a rank of 2lt or even Lt. Hitting Captain in a year is pretty common for high achievers and scholars which Hayate is both.

So yeah, there are some peactime armies that do so, since their culture is more civilian than anything else. Decades of peace and stable government can do that to most armies.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Kha

That seemed quoted straight out of the inneudos in the OC thread.

It would also explain why Craim is in charge of the church despite her young age.

MOE

[Kha]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

It would also explain why Craim is in charge of the church despite her young age.

MOE

I went with the cross of the better bits of Relena Peacecraft and Cagalli for juvenile super politician traits but there's no denying that outlook has a big part to play too. :3

For God Empress S******* H*****!!!

[dodgethis_sg]

Yes? Did someone invoke the name of Her Most Glorious One?

[Kha]

Originally Posted by dodgethis_sg

Yes? Did someone invoke the name of Her Most Glorious One?

The OC thread is a very friendly place to be if you are in Her allegience.

...and I'm off-topic.

[Keroko]

A question on the subject of millitairy ranks, does the air force rank of Wing Commander, being a commander of only aircraft, hold the authority to command people of other forces?

For example, according to this table (on the right side of the screen), a Wing Commander is technically equal in rank to a Lieutenant Colonel or a Commander, does that mean that the Wing Commander has the authority to command land and naval forces below those rankings, or is there a difference in hierarchy between land, naval and air forces as well?

[Avatar_notADV]

First, Wing Commander is a rank unique to the British and commonwealth militaries. The US uses army ranks for the air force (well, it used to BE the Army Air Force, huh?)

It's tough to say. Generally speaking, you'll have the authority of your rank (so, say, a Captain in the navy will rank over an army Lt.), but that doesn't necessarily mean that a Marine colonel can happen across a company of army troops and tell them "go take that hill". Typically in a combined-operations environment, the chain of command will be specifically delineated to reduce the amount of inter-service reporting - there'll only be a few points of interface through designated liaison officers. So in reality this sort of situation only crops up in the middle of combat or in emergencies.

Keep in mind that the Japanese military is an oddball among the western militaries, in that it has the same rank system through its navy and its army - we tend to translate the terms depending on the branch of the service that the person is in, but in the end, it's the same rank in Japanese. (This actually came up in Sakura Wars... Ohgami, an ensign, gets kicked over to the army at the same rank, and so boom, it's now Lt. Ohgami.)

Also, the TSAB is even more of an oddball, because it doesn't have the same separation of branches. Its air force is not a separate service, just a relatively elite formation staffed by more powerful mages who (usually) started out with the ground-pounders. We've only seen one unit of ground forces, in a disaster scenario, where they pretty much let a sixteen-year-old take command because she was more competent; we have to assume that the TSAB is much more likely to accept an "ad hoc" command from a higher-rank officer from another branch of the service simply because that officer probably has the abilities to back it up. ;p

[Anh_Minh]

"Right, wrong, I'm the officer with the S+ attack spell."? "I won't ask you to trust me or my intelligence. I'll ask you to trust that I can set you on fire with a thought."?

[aldw]

It might be interesting to compare TSAB with Battletech military organization, especially groups like the Clans.

[felix]

Battletech what?! ~
It doesn't matter what they were exactly ~ just what's the point your trying to make with them.

[An Hero in Disguise]

Originally Posted by aldw

It might be interesting to compare TSAB with Battletech military organization, especially groups like the Clans.

I remember seeing a site with a thorough explanation of all inconsistances of Battletech universe TSAB could deserve something similar as well