2011-05-10, 07:53 | Link #1101 |
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To add to what I said in the other thread, which hasn't been moved for some reason.
A drama for me uses suspense and makes you feel uncomfortable with the current state of affairs inside the story. Hanasaku Iroha usually tries to do exactly that (grandma slapping people around, cliffhangers at episode 2 and 4). But as being mentioned a few times, HanaIro doesn't have a really fast pacing making some events rather relaxing to watch. I'm not one to decide where the line is between drama and slice-of-life. Apparently HanaIro lies somewhere in between. Therefore basing your argument on your own genre definition, like the person I quoted in the other thread did, just feels wrong to me. No offense to the person in question of course.
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2011-05-10, 08:50 | Link #1102 | ||||||||||||||
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Perhaps not, but I don't think that they're mutually exclusive with one another either. Life inevitably has some drama in it. I do not see a level of drama in Hana-Saku Iroha that goes beyond what you could conceivably see in real life.
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Consider a show like The Simpsons. There's loads of drama in each and every episode. Yet, by the end of most episodes, the status quo has been maintained and/or re-established. You don't need to have lasting change in order to have drama. And, indeed, much of the drama we see in Hanasaku Iroha is not lasting, or result in significant lasting change. Quote:
Did anything in Episode 5 or 6 really change the status quo? Quote:
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This is what comes up when you search for just "Slice of Life" at that search page. If we were to go through that list, and eliminate anything with drama in it, what exactly is left? I certainly don't think that Hana-Saku Iroha would look out of place on the listing of Slice of Life shows there. Quote:
1) The types and number of fans that a show can attract. 2) How likely a fan is to be satisfied with what he or she watches. Part of the reason why I support Hana-Saku Iroha being considered a Slice of Life show (in addition to other genres, including drama and perhaps comedy) is because I think most people who like Slice of Life shows would like this anime, and for some of the same reasons that they like Slice of Life in general. Speaking personally, I now find this anime to be a pretty pleasant and relaxing watch. I see plenty in this anime that reflects real life. I see a largely episodic structure to this anime that reflects day-to-day living. I see no major fantastical elements. Quote:
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Last edited by Triple_R; 2011-05-10 at 09:06. |
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2011-05-10, 09:38 | Link #1103 |
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Terrible example; The Simpsons is a Satire Comedy. Satires require a steel status quo.
Why? Because it's possible? Are you saying that the Slice of Life label really just means that the show is realistic? If that's true, then the label is entirely useless in my mind. Especially when I looked at the ANN list of Slice of Life shows and found Sound of the Sky among them, which, since it has elements of SciFi/Fantasy, I would have never thought of as Slice of Life. So now I guess we can apply the label to anything that has someone who has a life. Yay.
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2011-05-10, 09:49 | Link #1104 |
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Personally I don't think Slice of life needs to mean actual real life like situations or things we actually expect can occur in real life, beacuse let's face it no matter what genre of manga we read its impossible to read a slice of life that we can say will actually happen in real life. Take Kimi no Iru Machi, as far as setting goes its very life like without any fantasy or sci/fi but still is it likely for a stranger to suddenly stay at your house and you fall in love.
Perhaps its a 1 in a million chance but what is the line we draw between fantasy and reality, if there is even a chance perhaps it can be consider Slice of Life since the situation in which she is living is not unlikely beacuse such typical people may exist. Perhaps not in the situation we see in Hanasaku Iroha or many others of the slice of life genre but perhaps because the characters are given emotions that actual people who if experiencing life that such situation may feel. Well thats just my oppinion from a TOK perspective XD
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2011-05-10, 09:59 | Link #1106 |
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Does it matter what we think Slice of Life means... If the Japenese use the label Slice of Life to simply classify the anime slice of life because in contains a "slice" of life such as schooling, romance and what not normal people experience in normal they life, than by the Japanese labeling use Aria is somewhat Slice of Life.
In others words it is not what we think Slice of Life means but who the producers see what Slice of Life means. Its in the gray area.
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2011-05-10, 10:31 | Link #1107 | ||
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No, it's not.
On this particular point, all I need to do is show that it's possible to have both a lot of drama and still maintain the status quo. Satire or not, the Simpsons show that it is possible to do that. Quote:
So if this is something that satire and slice of life share in common, is it not in fact fitting to use a satire example to prove the point that drama does not necessitate changing the status quo? Quote:
In my mind, Slice of Life is the opposite of Epic (in the traditional pre-internet sense of the term). "Epic" operates on a grand scale, often including explosive conflicts between fantastical opponents. Slice of Life is grounded in a more normal scale, and in the day-to-day. And that is what we have here in Hana-Saku Iroha, imo.
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Last edited by Triple_R; 2011-05-10 at 10:45. |
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2011-05-10, 11:14 | Link #1108 | ||
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2011-05-10, 11:29 | Link #1109 | |
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I wouldn't have, no. But clearly the term means something other than what I thought to all of you.
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I don't think Slice of Life, as it's being presented here by those who think Hana-Saku is one, is a genre. Merely a descriptive.
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2011-05-10, 12:24 | Link #1110 | |
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On one side you have those who consider Slice of Life as a genre (as in drama, romance). On the other side you have those who consider Slice of Life as a tag, a description, an element (or group of elements). On one side you have those who think a show must keep its status quo to be considered "Slice of Life". On the other side you have those who think that a show with a moving plot can still cohabit with the Slice of Life label. Since there isn't a point of convergence in the middle, this ideological "conflict" most likely won't ever end. Personally, I like to consider slice of life those shows where elements of daily happenings (such as eating, taking a walk, reading a book, gardening etc.) are shown on regular basis, and to me it can coexist with a moving plot. In this sense, Hanasuka Iroha to me definitely belongs to the Slice of Life category. But all in all, I think everyone will (rightly so) keep their own convictions, the ones they personally perceive as better fitting for their own standards. One may rather go by the book definition, or take a more free approach towards it because at the end, nothing changes as long as you enjoy the ride. My 2 cents.
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Last edited by Pellissier; 2011-05-10 at 13:09. |
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2011-05-10, 12:50 | Link #1111 |
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The most fascinating thing about this slice-of-life debate is not the debate itself, but the persistence of it. It seems to go on forever and ever, disappears for a while, then pops up on another shows thread and the whole thing repeats itself almost word for word. Who would have thought a 19th Century French theatrical expression would have such traction with anime?
You want slice of life? Go watch a few episodes of "Curb Your Enthusiasm". That meets the description a lot better than most anime do.
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2011-05-10, 13:02 | Link #1113 | ||
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Well public forum discussions tend to be quite fruitless if your goal is to convince, because everyone needs to talk to too many people at the same time. So you cannot go to deep into one subject with one person without being told 'go do that with private messages'. Still, I didn't tackle this subject for nothing. Forum debates is a quick way to know how different people think about a certain subject.
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Last edited by VentAileron; 2011-05-10 at 13:24. |
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2011-05-10, 13:25 | Link #1114 | ||
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It can be difficult and tricky to make mundane daily happenings (eating, taking a walk, reading a book, gardening, etc...) seem interesting, or even simply enjoyable to watch. Yet, anime often manages to pull this off quite nicely, and sometimes without even needing much humor to do it. This is to anime's credit. It is also to Hana-Saku Iroha's credit, imo. Why not speak well of what a show does well? I'm not just saying that Hana-Saku Iroha is a slice of life anime. I'm saying it's a good slice of life anime, and it deserves credit for that, imo. Quote:
In fact, this thread has really taken off over the past 16 hours or so, and on the strength of this slice of life discussion. Clearly some people would like to discuss this, which is better then total thread inactivity, imo.
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2011-05-10, 13:33 | Link #1115 | |
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K-on and Aria both have change in them. Seasons come and go, people graduate and get older, get promoted, and retire, etc. The emphasis, however, is on the passing of time and the mono no aware, rather than the drama or suspense of specific events or changes in the characters themselves. In Clannad After Story, for contrast, (putting the last epsiode aside for a moment), you have changes that happen in many people's lives (loved ones dying, having children, geting married, etc.), but these events are working as part of one continuous narrative, and the emphasis is on the drama of the events and the changes in characters. It seems to me that so far in Hanasaku Iroha, the emphasis isn't on the seasons and the passing of time, but rather on the drama of the events and the characters changing as a result of them.
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2011-05-10, 13:48 | Link #1117 | ||
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Spoiler for K-On spoilers:
Yes, there is a sense of the passing of time in K-On, but I think we'll probably get a sense of that in Hana-Saku Iroha as well as it gradually progresses. I suspect, for example, that by or near the end of this anime, we'll see Ohana start to reflect on her time at the Inn, and what it means to her. In so doing, there would be a sense of the passing of time in this anime. Quote:
Moving the slice of life discussion over to this thread was definitely the right thing to do, imo. Kudos to the mods for that.
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2011-05-10, 14:17 | Link #1118 | |
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Yeah, that's what you get when you modify half sentence and let the other half is it is (I originally put will never, then changed the "will" to "won't").
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- Ohana gets her first monthly salary. - The consultant (whom we saw in episode 1) returns stating she comes to the inn once a month. Both are very distinctive signs that at least a full month has passed since the beginning of the series.
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2011-05-10, 14:29 | Link #1119 | |
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As far as slice of life goes, the "definition" has always been murky but I'd say it applies to IroHana simply because there's no real over-arching plot (yet)... though in the end it might turn out to be more coming of age. Kind of early to call it I think. |
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2011-05-10, 14:30 | Link #1120 | |
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Well, for the record, I never said anime didn't do slice of life well, or that people shouldn't post about it - of course they should. I just said that, for me, the evolution of the generic debate and how it keeps reappearing in series after series is more interesting than the specifics of the debate - which tend to sound more or less identical no matter which show is being discussed.
I do find it interesting to see Clannad mentioned in this context, because it doesn't come close to meeting my personal definition of "slice of life". It's far too melodramatic, and the focus is on larger conflicts and crises, rather than the day to day incidentals. I think the first season of Minami-ke and Sketch Book are two shows that come pretty close to meeting my Platonic ideal of slice-of-life, albeit in different ways. FWIW, I don't really think HanaIro is a "pure" slice-of-life series - in fact, based on the shifting tone so far and the lack of an original source to serve as a guide for where it will go, I don't think it's safe to say just what it is yet. Like many series I suspect it will continue to bridge several genres, slice-of-life being just a part of it. If forced at gunpoint I'd call this a "coming-of-age" if I had to name a genre. But it's already been several and I don't particularly care if it continues to do so. Seirei no Moribito turned into a mostly slice-of-life show for its middle third - it certainly wasn't one before or after, but for that stretch of episodes it was as good as slice-of-life gets. That transition between styles didn't bother me at all. One overly simplistic way to capture the slice-of-life question might be to look at "Seinfeld". I personally think that show can be broken down into two parts - the first when it was a great show, the second when it wasn't (it correlates roughly to the time when Larry David left as head writer, but that's another discussion). It was even spoofed in the "Jerry" arc when they were writing the pilot for NBC. George (Larry David) insisted that it be a show "about nothing". Quote:
If you want to look at HanaIro as a pure slice-of-life, maybe the third episode - where the show tried way too hard - as getting their "Butler Story" out of the way early. Except, unlike "Seinfeld", HanaIro is also a bit of a romance, coming-of-age and melodrama too (among others). There are lots of larger things and serious things happening that need to evolve over the course of two cours. So those shows that are "about something" aren't inconsistent with what the show is - it's just that they have to be good, and the third ep wasn't.
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comedy, coming of age, drama, p.a. works, pa works, romance, slice of life |
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