Immortality - How could this not be a curse?

[Nightbat®]

Originally Posted by Sugetsu

My first priority as an immortal would be self knowledge. To fully master my mind, body and emotions. I want to be able to use a 100% of brain and surpass the feats that shaolin monks accomplish. In other words, i would would want to become a super human of sorts. One that has full control over his entire being. A person who isnt emotionally dependant on others, a person who is at pwace with himself and has the spirit of a child; someone who will never get bored of life because he lives in the present and is able to enjoy every little thing.

Then after i am a master of myself and have evidently become a sage, then i would focus on gaining scientific knowledge. Being a master of myself i would exponentially imcrease my ability to absorb and analyze information. My ability to direct my attention to where i need it to would enable me to see things most human beings are too blimd to see. I would make amazing discoveries.

Know thy self, know the universe.

Am i alone in this line of thinking? Come on there's got to be some one else reading this thread who also believes that spiritual development would be paramount as an immortal being ? Otherwise your exsistance would be misserable.

What use is a human that doesn't live like a human?

Now I'll admit being an emotionless robot filled with knowledge may make immortality a lot easier
But striving to become a living computer? *joy*

Also keep in mind that the human species will evolve unlike the dinosaur you'll turn out to be
so you reached spiritual perfection and gained absolute knowledge?

...Who cares? 'Human 6.0' was released on march 1st 128,853,682,21 AD, and they already outperformed you 3 versions earlier

[C.A.]

Why would there be any use living as just a human?

As humanity will keep evolving, technology will keep improving exponentially. If I'm really that immortal and unkillable, I would try all sorts of cybernetic enhancements, convert my self into data, program my consciousness into a whole bunch of space probes and send myself all over the universe to learn about it.

And by then, immortality may even have become common place, either genetically or digitally, or some even higher form of technology that we can't even begin to comprehend now. Once a civilisation reaches Type 2 civilisation, it can become virtually indestructible as a race and the original form of the race may even have changed completely.

Even if we don't talk about technology, there are already technically immortal animals on Earth, such as the immortal jelly fish, flat worms and the water bear. These guys just live on forever and can be chopped into pieces and multiply instead of dying.

[Akito Kinomoto]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

Actually immortality isn't a bad idea when you can afford to wait and *ahem* a loli that you like.

But...if you waited she until she was legal then in most circumstances she really wouldn't be a loli anymore.

Originally Posted by C.A.

Even if we don't talk about technology, there are already technically immortal animals on Earth, such as the immortal jelly fish, flat worms and the water bear. These guys just live on forever and can be chopped into pieces and multiply instead of dying.

Just out of curiosity.

You're describing a mechanical breakdown which I can see how those species could survive. However, what about "chemical" mutilation? Burns, acid, radiation, ect.?

[Ithekro]

It is rare for even a fictional immortal to be able to survive falling into the sun.

[C.A.]

Originally Posted by Akito_Kinomoto

Just out of curiosity.

You're describing a mechanical breakdown which I can see how those species could survive. However, what about "chemical" mutilation? Burns, acid, radiation, ect.?

Well here's what wiki says about the water bear or tardigrades:

Tardigrades have been known to withstand the following extremes while in this state:

Temperature – tardigrades can survive being heated for a few minutes to 151 °C (424 K), or being chilled for days at -200 °C (73 K), or for a few minutes at -272 °C (~1 degree above absolute zero).

Pressure – they can withstand the extremely low pressure of a vacuum and also very high pressures, more than 1,200 times atmospheric pressure. Tardigrades can survive the vacuum of open space and solar radiation combined for at least 10 days. Some species can also withstand pressure of 6,000 atmospheres, which is nearly six times the pressure of water in the deepest ocean trench, the Mariana trench.

Dehydration – tardigrades have been shown to survive nearly 10 years in a dry state. When encountered by extremely low temperatures, their body composition goes from 85% water to only 3%. As water expands upon freezing, dehydration ensures the tardigrades do not get ripped apart by the freezing ice (as waterless tissues cannot freeze).

Radiation – tardigrades can withstand median lethal doses of 5,000 Gy (of gamma-rays) and 6,200 Gy (of heavy ions) in hydrated animals (5 to 10 Gy could be fatal to a human). The only explanation thus far for this ability is that their lowered water state provides fewer reactants for the ionizing radiation.

Environmental toxins – tardigrades can undergo chemobiosis—a cryptobiotic response to high levels of environmental toxins. However, these laboratory results have yet to be verified.

Outer space – In September 2007, tardigrades were taken into low Earth orbit on the FOTON-M3 mission and for 10 days were exposed to the vacuum of space. After being rehydrated back on Earth, over 68% of the subjects protected from high-energy UV radiation survived and many of these produced viable embryos, and a handful had survived full exposure to solar radiation.In May 2011, tardigrades were sent into space along with other extremophiles on STS-134, the final flight of Space Shuttle Endeavour. In November 2011, they were among the organisms sent by the US-based Planetary Society on the Russian Fobos-Grunt mission to Phobos.

The water bear is perhaps the toughest living thing on Earth right now.

The immortal jelly fish is not too shabby itself. Because of its ability to revert back to a larva stage and multiply, it has a virtually immortal lifespan. It also survives extremely well in many regions of the oceans with various temperatures and salt, oxygen concentrations. Because of this, they are having an enormous population boom now.

A science lab at Nottingham university has been studying flatworms for years and just starting from a single sample, it has been chopped up so many times, that they have literally thousands of descendants from that single sample. Flatworms can probably take physical damage more than any other animal on Earth.

Originally Posted by Ithekro

It is rare for even a fictional immortal to be able to survive falling into the sun.

Well if in the future, an immortal converts itself into data, it can't fall into the sun lol

[Akito Kinomoto]

Originally Posted by C.A.

*Length*

Ah. I see. Thanks.

Well if in the future, an immortal converts itself into data, it can't fall into the sun lol

(Throws away a mind-carrying computer chip)

[Dr. Casey]

I don't get the 'culture shock' argument that some people talk about... sure, technology will be much more advanced 20 or 50 or 100 years from now, but it will be a gradual enough change that I don't imagine adjusting should be much of a problem, just like it shouldn't be for any person living in those time periods. It's also completely possible to become used to technology introduced later in your life; my grandmother was born in 1923 and didn't get the internet until 2001, but she still used email like a boss (At least until 2008, where her Alzheimer's progressed to the point that she stopped emailing).

I'm not sure if I would ever get bored with life. The world has a lot to offer. The concept of immortality is pretty dizzying, though... a life that only lasts 80-90 years is concise enough to have a coherent life story to it. If you live forever, though, even a wife of 50 or 60 years would eventually encompass just a very small fraction of your entire life. The whole concept of living an endless life is pretty hard to comprehend in some ways, to the point where I can't really understand it well enough to know whether I'd consider it a good thing or a bad. I can say that it would be nice to have a much longer life than the norm, though. Immortality might be too much, but I wouldn't complain about having 200 or 300 years.

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by Nightbat®

What use is a human that doesn't live like a human?

"Your effort to remain what you are is what limits you." Puppet Master in Ghost in the Shell (1995)

[Sugetsu]

Originally Posted by Nightbat®

What use is a human that doesn't live like a human?

Now I'll admit being an emotionless robot filled with knowledge may make immortality a lot easier
But striving to become a living computer? *joy*

Who said anything about becoming emotionless? Perhaps you need read my post again. I am talking about being in control of your emotions, your body and your mind. Human beings are usually under the control of their own urges and never in control of themselves. If I tell you you are stupid you would most likely give a knee jerk reaction to my comment in one way or another, this is a simple example of your lack of control.

Being the master of one self is often a life-long journey, and a very hard one at that, that only very few chose to embark. However, if one were immortal then that would certainly make the journey easier to achievable.

We are also controlled by our attachments, which of course are linked to our emotions, and an emotionally attached immortal would lead a very cursed existence indeed.

To reply directly to the subject of this thread, and at the risk of sounding very redundant: An immortal being must be detached in order to enjoy immortality, but this requires huge spiritual growth.

[mangamuscle]

Now, it might still be a long way until it an immortality pill is created, but news sound quite promising:

Key Gene Found Responsible For Accelerated Aging and Cancer

Gene Therapy Extends Mouse Lifespan

Flatworms Defy Aging Through Cell Division Tricks

Aging Eyes Blamed For Seniors' Health Woes

and last but not least:

The Race To $1,000 Human Genome Sequencing <--- this will be key to giving access to even modest labs that attemp to undestand how DNA works, once that is understood it can be repaired, modified and even improved using a the same method used to reprogram T-cells.

The bad news is that if these advances generate a notorious increase in longevity, you can say goodbye to the pension system, which is under strain as it is from the lower birth rate in many countries, it would not resist if life expectancy increases significantly.

From reading this and the prior thread it can be said that many of us fear death (dooh, isn't that obvious), but the really sad thing is that many more fear life even more than death, which makes sense since life can be a fearful place when you are alone, peniless or with no clear future ahead.

[Vexx]

Frankly, I don't plan to retire at all... but increased longevity just accelerates the soon-to-be-in-our-face problem of how do you employ all these people when the number of jobs being offered is permanently shrinking.

If everyone's needs were taken care of and people could what they *want* to do, what percentage would be couch potatoes and what percentage would be out there volunteering? (the Star Trek scenario).

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Vexx

Frankly, I don't plan to retire at all... but increased longevity just accelerates the soon-to-be-in-our-face problem of how do you employ all these people when the number of jobs being offered is permanently shrinking.

If everyone's needs were taken care of and people could what they *want* to do, what percentage would be couch potatoes and what percentage would be out there volunteering? (the Star Trek scenario).

Being immortal is actually going to immensely cut down on your expenses. It also cuts health care costs down to zero. A large chunk of our earnings are spent on basic survival; this would be shrunk to near nothing.

People don't want to WORK. People want to make a living. And by being immortal, your necessary working hours decrease to the point when you could support yourself working one day a week. There would then be far more jobs because everyone would be working part time.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Being immortal is actually going to immensely cut down on your expenses. It also cuts health care costs down to zero. A large chunk of our earnings are spent on basic survival; this would be shrunk to near nothing.

People don't want to WORK. People want to make a living. And by being immortal, your necessary working hours decrease to the point when you could support yourself working one day a week. There would then be far more jobs because everyone would be working part time.

I like this idea... I could help de-litter the park one day, repaint the gazebo the next, give tours at the science museum, tinker at the innovation engineering nest down town, and still have time to improve my bass guitar skills before an adventure in the holo-mmo-world.

[NoemiChan]

Just asking, if we immortality thats meant we are immune of everything that will kill any mortal normally? I meant a normal human would die of hunger, lack of oxygen, poison, blood loss to exaggerated possibilities like being one millimeter away from a TSAR Bomb's point of detonation.

I think immortality is far from being achieved by science.

[Vexx]

Ya'll are getting hung up on derails.... most practical definitions of "immortality" are simply "will live forever unless damaged beyond functionality in a short term event". The Elves in LOTR were "immortal" but could be killed.

There was an interesting series of fantasy books about the Roman Centurion who pierced Jesus on the day he was crucified. He was doomed to live until the Second Coming. ( The Casca series ) A lot of the stories involved grisly things that happen to him and the recovery process (including being burned to ashes and it taking a few decades before he re-assembled). But his was a supernatural curse...

The Heinlein series about the Methuselah humans (especially Lazarus Long) are probably my favorite exploration of what it would be like to be long-lived (near immortal).

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by GenjiChan

I think immortality is far from being achieved by science.

Understanding immortality like invulnerability (a la superman) is a mistake in my opinion, but as medicine advances we can't rule all of it out. I saw a documantary some time ago about how people that would have died from wounds in the vietnam wars nowadays are saved, the problem is the damage to the brain they receive. So either someone makes a better helmet (one that absorbs, deflects most shockwaves) or medical science learns to heal brain damage. But I would not be surprised if we get to the point where people are saved from severe trauma if only the head is somewhat intact (cloning a new body for that brain or granting a cyborg body will someday be feasible).

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by Vexx

He was doomed to live until the Second Coming. ( The Casca series ) A lot of the stories involved grisly things that happen to him and the recovery process (including being burned to ashes and it taking a few decades before he re-assembled). But his was a supernatural curse...

Two bad, that even if he sees the light and become a "brother", his fate was already sealed. That really makes his being an immortal more of a curse than a blessing.

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

Understanding immortality like invulnerability (a la superman) is a mistake in my opinion, but as medicine advances we can't rule all of it out. I saw a documantary some time ago about how people that would have died from wounds in the vietnam wars nowadays are saved, the problem is the damage to the brain they receive. So either someone makes a better helmet (one that absorbs, deflects most shockwaves) or medical science learns to heal brain damage. But I would not be surprised if we get to the point where people are saved from severe trauma if only the head is somewhat intact (cloning a new body for that brain or granting a cyborg body will someday be feasible).

I guess immorality still requires maintenance like life time intake of food and medication.

[Mr Hat and Clogs]

Bring on Cyber-punk immortality al la GitS, IMO.

(I just want a Tachikoma)

[Ithekro]

It does depend on what sort of immortality one talks about. Because while one might not die, one might still need energy, oxygen and water to fuction.

There is the non-aging immortal. The slow aging immortal. The won't die even if they are killed immortal. There is the can be killed but will just come right back immortal (Highlander). There is the immune to sickness immortal that can still be killed. And there is the Superman style immortal that basically can't be effected by anything.

There are several examples of immortals in Star Trek. And I means the human type or an alien posing as a human type as oppose to the Q or other such beings that are around. The one of interest would be Flint from the episode "Requiem for Methuselah". This is a man that was born on Earth thousands of years ago with a genetic mutation that allowed for immortality. He was several famous people through the ages including Brahms and da Vinci. He left Earth sometime after the development of Warp travel. He does invest in building an immortal female android because the loss of so many companions has left him lonely. Knowing his companion would not age or die would at least allow him to not be loney.

That or find an immortal woman you can stand to be with forever. Instead of building one.

[C.A.]

The advances in medicine and technology is changing the question of immortality from 'how' to 'when'.

If civilisation on Earth manages to survive for long enough, eventually technology would be so high advanced, the human race can't even try to kill itself.

The lab at Nottingham university that I mentioned, is studying flatworms for their ability to use stem cells and perform cell division that does not deteriorate their telomeres, which gives them immortality that counters cell damage and aging. They are trying to find the genes and see whether they can activate or incorporate the same genes in humans.

Humans may not become Superman, but Wolverine could be a possibility.