[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 4 Alliance of the golden witch

[Kitsu]

But with that Genji would have lied to the other siblings.
Also? Why would they hide it? The blackmailing from the other siblings startet at 4th October. Means that before that he could have let Kinzo die in an accident. But if for example his daughter was strongly involved in the murder, then he would have kept quite.
And you shouldn't forget the Doc.
So I still think that Jessica might killed Kinzo

Yeah could be right, but is not necessary in the end it's actually the same. Both George and Jessica are dead

[Squirrellord]

If we're gonna talk about Jessica theories~

Spoiler for Absurd Jessica Theory:

Jessica is neither Krauss's nor Natuhi's daughter, but was adopted. Kinzo arranged for this, because there was an abandoned child... in Kuwadorian... 1967. Yes, Jessica is Beatrice's daughter!
We know that Beatrice lived on the island for around 20 years, so she was old enough to have a child. We can't deny that any man who was near there (even Kinzo, which is creepy because I'm supposing that he's the father of Beatrice) could have made her. Therefore, she is still Kinzo's legitimate granddaughter, and carries the Ushiromiya blood.
-She had blonde hair. The only other person to also have blonde hair is Beatrice. None of the other cousins or siblings have it (while 3 people have redish hair. Arguably, Krauss's hair is blondish, but it seems more brown to me)
-Jessica's birthday likely falls in 1967
-Natushi and Krauss had trouble conceiving, at least 6 years worth of trouble. It's likely they were unable to make a child.
-Natsuhi probably doesn't leave the house often, and the family only gathers once a year. If it just so happened that Natuhi became "pregnant" before a conference, nobody would be the wiser when she had a child with her next year. A kink in this theory is that Rosa probably was still living at home.

With this, if you want to suppose Kinzo was killed by Jessica, you could say Kinzo told her, and she lashed out against him.

You can also say a similar theory about Battler's mom being Beatrice, with Kinzo and Asumu working together to beat out Kyrie, who was going to have a bastard child and shame the Ushiromiya name. But that's significantly more sketchy and harder to find proof to support (namely, that Rudolf married Asumu BECAUSE she was pregnant. I think he'd notice if she wasn't)

[Kitsu]

I also thought somethink like you Squirrellord, but in EPisode 1 it was said that Jessica looks more and more like her mother. (This leading me to Beatrice=Natsuhi theory xD). We can't rule it out but I think it's unlikely. Also Rosa must have still lived at home. Her adventures with Beatrice were in her middle school time right?

But aw~ Jessica is just so fun to doubt

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Please check what is miscarriage, because at this rate I will lose more than few hair...
Miscarriage cannot be a stillbirth. Strictly speaking, it happens when the fetus dies before the critical cap of 24 weeks. You discover this due to bleeding or the ultrasound exams done by routine. You cannot have 9 months of term, then "oh, it is a miscarriage!". Absolutely impossible.

And the term is exactly the same in japanese, so it is downright impossible to mistake stillbirth with miscarriage.


No, they never said the shed could be open by the master key.

XD; S-Sorry. This is why I don't plan to be a doctor lol OTL

But in that case that means that a switch isn't possible, right? Because if what you said is true then they wouldn't be able to switch the children. So does this mean Kyrie cannot be Battler's mother in any way?

Also I thought of something on the way home - two things actually.

Spoiler for Watches and Phone Calls:

1) What if Gohda and Kumasawa assisted in bringing down everyone that survived the 1st twilight and changed the watches? Then when Kyrie asked for the time they responded to the time they switched it to. Wouldn't this work?

2) I believe Kyrie did not die in the guest room. Rather she was killed in the prison and then moved to the guest room. Think about it - she could have been told to say all that to Battler at gun point and then she was shot dead. The 'teasing her' tip from her "execute" can apply to this if her killer was teasing her by shooting her in spots that wouldn't hit.

Not to mention the well. It was completely sealed off when Battler found it. No way Kyrie's group had time to do that according to the game, because Kanon was killed when he was climbing out of the well and then Shannon and Nanjo were killed right after that while Krauss and Kyrie were escaping to the mansion.

[k//eternal]

If you don't trust any of the phone calls, and believe that the master key can open the shed (since AFAIK it was never stated in red that it can't), then there's nothing weird in EP4 at all. Suppose someone is highly skilled at disguising their voice. As crazy said, it may be possible to "mistake Kinzo by hearing", so along that line, what if the culprit (or culprits) can imitate all kinds of voices?

Then all you're left with is "they were all shot" and the holes around Kyrie were just made to reinforce the story. All the locked rooms were opened and then relocked with the master key.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by k//eternal

If you don't trust any of the phone calls, and believe that the master key can open the shed (since AFAIK it was never stated in red that it can't), then there's nothing weird in EP4 at all. Suppose someone is highly skilled at disguising their voice. As crazy said, it may be possible to "mistake Kinzo by hearing", so along that line, what if the culprit (or culprits) can imitate all kinds of voices?

Then all you're left with is "they were all shot" and the holes around Kyrie were just made to reinforce the story. All the locked rooms were opened and then relocked with the master key.

Spoiler for Phone calls EP 4:

It's not that I don't trust any phone calls - just that I think the prisoners were forced to make those calls on the demand of the killer. I think the times when Kyrie was shot at but it missed were just warning shots. The killer might have thought that she was about to tell Battler about what actually happened, so he shot at her but conveniently missed. Then when it was done and she babbled about Asumu again he shot her.

Also, something from EP 1 since I was relooking at the shed thing: when they find the magic circle on the shed door Hideyoshi immediately believes it's something for demonic ceremonies. Why does he think this automatically?

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Squirrellord

If we're gonna talk about Jessica theories~

Spoiler for Absurd Jessica Theory:

Jessica is neither Krauss's nor Natuhi's daughter, but was adopted. Kinzo arranged for this, because there was an abandoned child... in Kuwadorian... 1967. Yes, Jessica is Beatrice's daughter!
We know that Beatrice lived on the island for around 20 years, so she was old enough to have a child. We can't deny that any man who was near there (even Kinzo, which is creepy because I'm supposing that he's the father of Beatrice) could have made her. Therefore, she is still Kinzo's legitimate granddaughter, and carries the Ushiromiya blood.
-She had blonde hair. The only other person to also have blonde hair is Beatrice. None of the other cousins or siblings have it (while 3 people have redish hair. Arguably, Krauss's hair is blondish, but it seems more brown to me)
-Jessica's birthday likely falls in 1967
-Natushi and Krauss had trouble conceiving, at least 6 years worth of trouble. It's likely they were unable to make a child.
-Natsuhi probably doesn't leave the house often, and the family only gathers once a year. If it just so happened that Natuhi became "pregnant" before a conference, nobody would be the wiser when she had a child with her next year. A kink in this theory is that Rosa probably was still living at home.

With this, if you want to suppose Kinzo was killed by Jessica, you could say Kinzo told her, and she lashed out against him.

You can also say a similar theory about Battler's mom being Beatrice, with Kinzo and Asumu working together to beat out Kyrie, who was going to have a bastard child and shame the Ushiromiya name. But that's significantly more sketchy and harder to find proof to support (namely, that Rudolf married Asumu BECAUSE she was pregnant. I think he'd notice if she wasn't)

This is a possible theory. after all 12 years to have a baby and then suddenly poof Natsuhi got pregnant?

Anyway:

Spoiler for ep4:

-Jessica doesn't really have blonde hair. In episode1 Battler comments the Witch's portrait saying that she is a blonde woman therefore she's probably a western woman. With this I think the hair colors we see are not supposed to be there they are just for visual like in most anime. "Blonde = non japanese" means that Jessica's true hair color is black. At best she might have died her hairs.
- It should be 1968, however it might be she's born in 1967 after October5. That way she'd still be 18 years old during the events of the game.
- Rosa was definitely still at home. At best Jessica has born only one year after the incident that caused Beatrice to die. Rosa was still a middle schooler by then. However you can't completely deny that Natsuhi faked her pregnancy.

1) What if Gohda and Kumasawa assisted in bringing down everyone that survived the 1st twilight and changed the watches? Then when Kyrie asked for the time they responded to the time they switched it to. Wouldn't this work?

I think they asked to Battler and the other cousins too... Anyway this is irrelevant. Considering what kyrie says later, we should assume that she cannot be trusted (whatever it's the reason) so the whole wacthes thing could be just a lie or something.

2) I believe Kyrie did not die in the guest room. Rather she was killed in the prison and then moved to the guest room. Think about it - she could have been told to say all that to Battler at gun point and then she was shot dead. The 'teasing her' tip from her "execute" can apply to this if her killer was teasing her by shooting her in spots that wouldn't hit.

That is most probable. But we are talking about Kyrie. If she was forced to tell something by force, she would have tried to mix a message between the lines to make Battler understand the truth. However it's totally possible that Battler didn't get it.

If you don't trust any of the phone calls, and believe that the master key can open the shed (since AFAIK it was never stated in red that it can't)

I don't remember that was stated in red either, however Battler is unable to open the shed with his master key. You can still think that there was a missing key from the bundle, but I think this is improbable.

[k//eternal]

Originally Posted by Marion

Spoiler for Phone calls EP 4:

It's not that I don't trust any phone calls - just that I think the prisoners were forced to make those calls on the demand of the killer. I think the times when Kyrie was shot at but it missed were just warning shots. The killer might have thought that she was about to tell Battler about what actually happened, so he shot at her but conveniently missed. Then when it was done and she babbled about Asumu again he shot her.

Also, something from EP 1 since I was relooking at the shed thing: when they find the magic circle on the shed door Hideyoshi immediately believes it's something for demonic ceremonies. Why does he think this automatically?

Ah, I wasn't directing that at you specifically.

As for the magic circle, if I saw a symbol like that written in blood, I'd probably think it was something like that, too. Not to mention everyone knows about Kinzo's hobby, and it was likely at the front of their minds.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Marion

Spoiler for Watches and Phone Calls:

Not to mention the well. It was completely sealed off when Battler found it. No way Kyrie's group had time to do that according to the game, because Kanon was killed when he was climbing out of the well and then Shannon and Nanjo were killed right after that while Krauss and Kyrie were escaping to the mansion.

I don't think anyone was underground in the first place. The time is off, the well is sealed (and it looks like it wasn't a haphazard seal either), I just think somebody is lying or being told what to say.

As to why the bodies are like that...

Spoiler for The Well Group in ep4:

Is it possible they were going not from Kuwadorian, but to Kuwadorian? Nanjo told some of the survivors of the dining room attack about the hidden manor, and rushed for the closest entrance to the tunnel, only to find it sealed up just as their killer caught up with them?

[Sterling01]

You guys really don't need to post in spoiler tags.

[Jan-Poo]

I wonder... I always done that in the threads about ep1 ep2 and ep3 asking myself if that was really needed. Is it? Isn't it? In the doubt I always used spoiler tags

[k//eternal]

I would use them for things that are revealed late in EP4; the stuff earlier on, it's a maybe.

EP1-3 material, definitely no need.

[Orophin]

Okay, I just finished reading chapter 16 and I don't think I can describe how awesome it was with words. Seriously, this chapter had it all. I enjoyed every second of it.

By the way, I think I saw Bern in one of the goat's flashback. What was it? It went by so fast that I didn't have the time to read or even see what was going on.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Orophin

Okay, I just finished reading chapter 16 and I don't think I can describe how awesome it was with words. Seriously, this chapter had it all. I enjoyed every second of it.

By the way, I think I saw Bern in one of the goat's flashback. What was it? It went by so fast that I didn't have the time to read or even see what was going on.

I didn't see it either. It had Witch-Maria in it too.

[Rias]

The goat being excited about young girls.

I lost the screencap for that

[Hareoic]

That reminds me; Supposedly there was a point where Maria become Ronove's new owner, but I don't recall seeing it anywhere in this episode...

[Christen]

Does anyone have a link and translation to the Enoura and La Plata theories? Those would be good material.

[Squirrellord]

My friend finally finished 4, and we were talking about Kanon and Shannon possibly being the same person, and I thought of something. I'll put it in the spoilers just in case, plus I don't know how much I'll type >_>; Again, I'm not claiming this is true, it's just fun to come up with theories and watch them get put to the test

Spoiler for Kanon's True Form:

So, let's look at the women in Umineko, from an objective stand point.
-Beatrice: Created Ronove and Virgilia from Genji and Kumasawa, to escape her solitary existence on the island (speculation)
-Eva: Creates a witch within herself, to escape from her mistreated life.
-Maria: Creates Sakutaro and the Siesta Sisters (speculation on the second part) to escape her solitary and miserable life.
-Ange: Creates Maria, Sakutaro, and the 7 Sisters from Maria's diary to escape her miserable solitary life.

So who's another solitary female? Jessica. She lives on the island, it's not like she's got friends who are willing to take a boat trip over, she's not great in school, and her parents are constantly pushing her. So, she tells all her friends she has a boyfriend, and that she'll bring him to the school culture festival thing. So she makes up Kanon, someone to be there for her, someone to love her, etc, basing him off the love she sees from Shannon and George. You could also then say that when Beatrice revived Kanon's ghost for Jessica in part 3, that that's exactly how Kanon is at all times anyway, to her.

It's possible then to say that Kanon does not exist, and that he is another graduate of the -on orphanage, Runon, Renon, Manon, etc, who is overlapped with Jessica's Kanon image. Using this, it's possible to make Kanon the ultimate piece against Battler, as he does not exist, cannot die, and can create perfect contradictions. *Kanon* did not die by a stake to the chest due to suicide, accident, or murder, but his true form could have. This way, Kanon's relationship with Kinzo is also cleared up, seeing as neither of them exist.

[crazysjd89]

I'm not sure if that theory is likely though, because of some of the red text said about Kanon. Of course, it's possible to get around it using tricky wording.

Spoiler for Red Text:

Nobody would mistake another person for Kanon

Of course, it's possible to get around this by saying they didn't mistakehim for Kanon, but were calling him Kanon out of courtesy for Jessica.

The only one who can use Kanon's name is the person himself. A different human cannot use that name!

and

Kanon is dead. He was the first to die in Kyrie's group of 5. In other words, he is the ninth victim.

This would mean the Kanon she is talking about, off island, would have a very small time frame to suddenly die.

Originally Posted by Hareoic

That reminds me; Supposedly there was a point where Maria become Ronove's new owner, but I don't recall seeing it anywhere in this episode...

I would hope not, because there was no such time.

[SeventhHS]

After playing the translated EP4, a friend of mine has made a blog post summarizing some theories we and a few others have hammered out on IRC, none of us being regular posters here. Thought I'd post them here to share with you guys too - more food for thought never hurts, or maybe the geniuses amongst you can shoot a hole in one of them immediately, as has been the usual with this thread

Well, enjoy if you can. Sorry about the offsite approach, but we want to join in the fun even if we don't post on Animesuki.

Congratulations and thanks for your hard work as always, Witch Hunt.