Zero no Tsukaima Novels Discussion Thread

[Kuroageha]

The build up for the current arc heavily implied Tiffa was going to be the second wife and as for Henrietta, she still hasn't given up.

Siesta is someone Louise had to accept anyway.

I doubt leading a country is any impediment, just look at the previous kings in the series, lift a rock and a hidden mistress appeared.

[Botan_TM]

Originally Posted by Kuroageha

I doubt leading a country is any impediment, just look at the previous kings in the series, lift a rock and a hidden mistress appeared.

King =/= queen that's a difference.

No harem ending, this series won't go so low.

Anyway more important question is what the hell happened 6000 years ago and how crisis with windstones will end.

[Sacredus]

Wait. I read this "years ago" (and don't remember almost anything from it*), but didn't Tabhita left throne to her sister?

*Time to re-read whole series when translations of new Volumes will be out.


Edit:
Found it

Spoiler for From 18th Vol.:

While Tabitha, without saying a word, began to put the plates on the table, Siesta hurried came over her.
“Miss Tabitha! Please Stop! This is not the job for a member of the Royal Family of Gallia...”
At that, in response, Tabitha shook her head.
“I do not belong to the royal family, but I am a servant in the service of this house.”
That was it, Tabitha had dismissed her right to belong to the Royal Family, and transferred her rights of succession to Josette, along with the name Charlotte. Both the mother of Tabitha and Isabella, persuaded her to change her mind. However, Tabitha chose to come and live in this house, that was her final decision.
But still, she was given a condition for being allowed to live with Saito.
Until the end of the crusade, she had to serve as an assistant to Saito, after that, she would have to return to Gallia, but ... the fact if she would carry the crown once again, had not yet been decided. In contrast, the only mandate to do was to abolish the tradition of: If they were twins born into the royal family, You would have to eliminate one of them.

[BladeMancer]

Originally Posted by Botan_TM

King =/= queen that's a difference.

No harem ending, this series won't go so low.

Anyway more important question is what the hell happened 6000 years ago and how crisis with windstones will end.

But the series does go so low in that Louise is one of the most violent tsunderes I have ever seen and that Saito "is in love" with her. I only go for the harem ending just so he can spite her.

[Botan_TM]

Originally Posted by BladeMancer

But the series does go so low in that Louise is one of the most violent tsunderes I have ever seen and that Saito "is in love" with her. I only go for the harem ending just so he can spite her.

Was most violent tsunderes, because during story she changed (well, we will see what happen after Tiffa story), also her behaviour had some background in comparison to many crappy copies created later. Also don't say you haven't noticed that overusing of violence was a part of comedy?

[Kuroageha]

Originally Posted by Botan_TM

King =/= queen that's a difference.

No harem ending, this series won't go so low.

.

In this story the Queen holds the most power if not equal though as it is the magic talent tradition what gives nobles and royals their status.

>this series
>not low
Please, it already was.


@allfictions
Your shipping boogeyman isn't working, that's has been set up since the elf became Saito's second master, read the novels, avoid summaries.

[allfictions]

Originally Posted by Kuroageha

The build up for the current arc heavily implied Tiffa was going to be the second wife

"Imply", lol, there was no such thing except if one abused shipping googles.

[eisai_haramasukoi]

People still have issues with Louise's violent tendencies. They forgot that this is a medieval world.

[BladeMancer]

Originally Posted by Chaser

People still have issues with Louise's violent tendencies. They forgot that this is a medieval world.

You also forget that Saito is from the modern world. If I was him I would have straight up punched her and left, regardless of consequence. You would have to be a heavy M to endure all that shit.

[blitz1/2]

Originally Posted by Chaser

People still have issues with Louise's violent tendencies. They forgot that this is a medieval world.

Hey, at least Saito didn't stab Louise in the back while smiling and said, "Kore ga yuetsu..."

[eisai_haramasukoi]

Originally Posted by BladeMancer

You also forget that Saito is from the modern world. If I was him I would have straight up punched her and left, regardless of consequence. You would have to be a heavy M to endure all that shit.

I didn't forget that. I'll do the same if that was me.

I was referring more to how most people view Louise.

[allfictions]

Originally Posted by Chaser

People still have issues with Louise's violent tendencies. They forgot that this is a medieval world.

That has nothing to do with it (unless you want to claim Early Modern, not medieval, women were more violent for some reason), it's just that some people...

Originally Posted by BladeMancer

You also forget that Saito is from the modern world. If I was him I would have straight up punched her and left, regardless of consequence. You would have to be a heavy M to endure all that shit.

...can't seem to understand that this is a Japanese light novel series that they took way too seriously on its humour.

Much of the female-on-male violence is clearly depicted in a way and manner that is "Anime~", and is the Japanese equivalent of American Slapstick humor (like Tom and Jerry or The Three Stooges). Does anyone here claim Tom and Jerry is animal abuse? No, because as Westerners, we see this type of humour as fine and hilarious. Same thing with Japanese; for some reason, the pinnacle of slapstick there is the "abusive wife" trope. It's goddamn funny from the East Asian standpoint, but due to a more Western lens, we as an audience cannot get that sense. We get whiplash when we see scenes where Saito gets injured being treated with so much gravitas, and then when it switches to female-on-male abuse we immediately ascribe the same gravitas to those actions. From our standpoint it's bad writing, right? Why is getting hurt so much in one way more serious in getting hurt in another, right? We don't always get this kind of comedy.

So you get immature reactions about hurting/killing Louise, or some other machismo bullshit. I can understand it (even though I find it ridiculous), the slapstick frequently descends into an uncanny valley where it's not absurd enough to be funny, but I personally find both Louise and Saito (and a bunch of other characters too) are screwed up. For example, Louise is plenty bad, but I can't be the only one who remembers that Saito tried to assault her in her sleep, and still attempted to do it when she woke up and was refusing him, am I?

However, for some reason, I also find their relationship more realistic and endearing for it. Strangely enough, the harem antics, as awful as they were (looking at you Siesta!), introduced plot points, when similar situations that play out quite differently since the characters in question "learned" or changed between them. You can see how Louise and Saito became more honest with each other and stopped hurting one another, emotionally and physically.

At least that's how I see it.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by allfictions

That has nothing to do with it (unless you want to claim Early Modern, not medieval, women were more violent for some reason), it's just that some people...

...can't seem to understand that this is a Japanese light novel series that they took way too seriously on its humour.

Much of the female-on-male violence is clearly depicted in a way and manner that is "Anime~", and is the Japanese equivalent of American Slapstick humor (like Tom and Jerry or The Three Stooges). Does anyone here claim Tom and Jerry is animal abuse? No, because as Westerners, we see this type of humour as fine and hilarious. Same thing with Japanese; for some reason, the pinnacle of slapstick there is the "abusive wife" trope. It's goddamn funny from the East Asian standpoint, but due to a more Western lens, we as an audience cannot get that sense. We get whiplash when we see scenes where Saito gets injured being treated with so much gravitas, and then when it switches to female-on-male abuse we immediately ascribe the same gravitas to those actions. From our standpoint it's bad writing, right? Why is getting hurt so much in one way more serious in getting hurt in another, right? We don't always get this kind of comedy.

So you get immature reactions about hurting/killing Louise, or some other machismo bullshit. I can understand it (even though I find it ridiculous), the slapstick frequently descends into an uncanny valley where it's not absurd enough to be funny, but I personally find both Louise and Saito (and a bunch of other characters too) are screwed up. For example, Louise is plenty bad, but I can't be the only one who remembers that Saito tried to assault her in her sleep, and still attempted to do it when she woke up and was refusing him, am I?

However, for some reason, I also find their relationship more realistic and endearing for it. Strangely enough, the harem antics, as awful as they were (looking at you Siesta!), introduced plot points, when similar situations that play out quite differently since the characters in question "learned" or changed between them. You can see how Louise and Saito became more honest with each other and stopped hurting one another, emotionally and physically.

At least that's how I see it.

Yeah I have to seriously disagree with this. Only tsundere I have seen that is worse is Eri from Shomin Sample. But no one likes Louise for the very fact that her violence is not the typical lol anime style. That typically consist of over exaggerated Charles atlas violence that everyone has shrugged off by the next scene. But louise literally treated the character as somewhere between a slave and a dog for a good chunk of the series.

And I don't really see what her excuse was either, because your claim about her backstory making it justified doesn't hold water. Is it supposed to be expected if something bad happened to a character they get a free pass to treat an unrelated party like crap.

I am not saying the character should get killed off or anything, but I honestly thought every single other female character was much better than her and I would honestly not care if he had ended up with anyone else.

Also since when is a harem work ending in a harem "low"? I get tired of people who complain about this because a. 99 percent of works that are harem never end in harem, so its not like its overused and b. the genre is harem, if you want one girl one boy romance, there is a separate genre for that.

[BladeMancer]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Yeah I have to seriously disagree with this. Only tsundere I have seen that is worse is Eri from Shomin Sample. But no one likes Louise for the very fact that her violence is not the typical lol anime style. That typically consist of over exaggerated Charles atlas violence that everyone has shrugged off by the next scene. But louise literally treated the character as somewhere between a slave and a dog for a good chunk of the series.

And I don't really see what her excuse was either, because your claim about her backstory making it justified doesn't hold water. Is it supposed to be expected if something bad happened to a character they get a free pass to treat an unrelated party like crap.

I am not saying the character should get killed off or anything, but I honestly thought every single other female character was much better than her and I would honestly not care if he had ended up with anyone else.

Also since when is a harem work ending in a harem "low"? I get tired of people who complain about this because a. 99 percent of works that are harem never end in harem, so its not like its overused and b. the genre is harem, if you want one girl one boy romance, there is a separate genre for that.

Eri isn't a tsundere, we all agree that she's a bitch. But that's for another thread aye
For the harem thing, someones been reading too many web novels from wuguhm A genuine light novel harem series is common, a harem end within them isn't.

[dragon1412]

Originally Posted by BladeMancer

Eri isn't a tsundere, we all agree that she's a bitch. But that's for another thread aye
For the harem thing, someones been reading too many web novels from wuguhm A genuine light novel harem series is common, a harem end within them isn't.

for once, are you really sure about this statement, since there are a lot of series with harem end even way back at the time of ZnT publishment

They are not as well known as some of the famous series, but i assure you, there are quite a number of them among light novel harem series, Tenchi Muyo is one of such, there is also Ray x Light, etc

Edit: Hate it or like it, true harem was always a thing ever since long ago, just that most series you know aren't one of them

[allfictions]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Yeah I have to seriously disagree with this. Only tsundere I have seen that is worse is Eri from Shomin Sample. But no one likes Louise for the very fact that her violence is not the typical lol anime style. That typically consist of over exaggerated Charles atlas violence that everyone has shrugged off by the next scene. But louise literally treated the character as somewhere between a slave and a dog for a good chunk of the series.

I took my time explaining everything, why it was a staple of the series, and why Japanese didn't see anything wrong with it as opposed to Western readers. If your only argument is "I disagree with it", there really was no need to reply because you're not disproving my point.

Also, lol at "no one likes Louise".

And I don't really see what her excuse was either, because your claim about her backstory making it justified doesn't hold water. Is it supposed to be expected if something bad happened to a character they get a free pass to treat an unrelated party like crap.

Whenever did I say anything about Louise's backstory? This is nowhere in my post, are you replying to someone else? I merely talked about how the scenes looks to us from a Doylist perspective, nothing about in-universe justification (even though it would have been trivially easy for me to explain Louise's attitude by what the novels tell us).

Also, understandable =/= justified, learn the difference.

I am not saying the character should get killed off or anything, but I honestly thought every single other female character was much better than her and I would honestly not care if he had ended up with anyone else.

*shrug* Most of the cast are kind of bad, whether intentionally or not:

Henrietta - Endangers her best friend's life by entrusting her with a risky mission. When Zombie!Wales comes for her, she willingly goes with him despite admitting that she knew it wasn't truly him. This led to the deaths of almost her entire Griffon squadron and almost Saito's as well when she used a Hexagonal magic on him with Zombie!Wales.

Colbert - Burned an innocent village to the ground.

Julio - Emotionally manipulates a girl into stealing her sister's throne and was willing to shoot Saito right in front of his mother if he refused to become involved in a conflict that he had no place in.

Siesta - Slipped Saito a sleeping potion with the intent for him to use it on Louise so he could leave her to die if she wants to do a last stand. Also let Louise beat him so she could take care of him and look good.

Guiche - Tries to use Saito as a scapegoat for his own failings and would likely have permanently crippled him if Gandalfr runes didn't activate.

Montmorency - Was willing to drug someone into a potion induced relationship despite knowing that it's both illegal and would cause the drinker to act massively out-of-character.

Malicorne - Becomes jealous of how Saito gets all the girls, causing him to starts perving on the girls, to the point of near touch-molesting Tiffa, and his development only worsens as he shows dissatisfaction with his girlfriend and the power given to him goes to his head.

While they are good guys and show remorse for their misdeeds, it doesn't erase what they did. Hell, the only really innocent person in the cast is Tiffania, and her innocent ignorance is not seen as a good thing, and is the impetus for many bad things that are not played for laughs. As she gets burned and learns, she slowly becomes more cynical and mindful of others' suffering and motives, until the point where she can detect other people's perving on her (though in the case of Saito, she finds no threat because she doesn't mind him perving on her, proof of her feelings/love for him) but also she becomes in tune with Louise's Tsun tendencies, and, while not like Siesta who outright abuses it, becomes mindful of it for herself and those around her.

The entire cast might be gray, but they're nowhere near as bad as Joseph and the other bad guys/forced bad guys. That people can't get past the first layer to see that the characterizations run deeper is something I find unfortunate. And the focus on Louise as "bad" while glossing over everyone else is a tad hypocritical.

[tsunade666]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Yeah I have to seriously disagree with this. Only tsundere I have seen that is worse is Eri from Shomin Sample.

Eh, I think getting hit by railgun or bullets are a lot worse than getting whipped.

Louise is well disliked in western community but not by all. I can tolerate Louise because she learn and change. I can tolerate her the same I tolerate Claire that mature and developed as the story goes. That is better than after 10+ volumes, the characters are still the same trigger happy and can be easy jealous just by seeing the MC contacting with opposite gender, then they lashed out.

Louise is bad, but I still liked her as much as I like the mentioned violent tsunderes. It also helps that Louise is one of the early bad tsundere. Tsundere concept are still not that wide when she first shows up, which is why I just laugh at her early attempts but as the story and genre go generic, it become stale and boring. Then, it become contempt when things didn't change for the better.

Tenchi Muyo is indeed one of the famous series of harem ending.

btw. thanks for the link on the later summaries.

[Stro]

I wonder if they the group travel to Japan in the case that shantai gate (or whatever is called) is really the portal to the our world. It would be nice to have a Saito backround since he is the main character but we don't know nothing of him.

[Botan_TM]

Originally Posted by Kuroageha

In this story the Queen holds the most power if not equal though as it is the magic talent tradition what gives nobles and royals their status.

>this series
>not low
Please, it already was.

What? Never in this I met a such statement, that Queen have more power than King. Even Henrietta had to marry Germania ruler, fortunately thanks to Germania leaving Tristania without help and her merits she was allowed to be on the throne. Also what about succession? Queen can't a harem, hidden lover yes, but not harem.

Low series are those with one guys and bunch of girls where plot is a just dummy. Here we got a romance comedy with added harem, but without it whole story can stand on it own. It isn't for sure a best one, but just decent.

Originally Posted by BladeMancer

You also forget that Saito is from the modern world. If I was him I would have straight up punched her and left, regardless of consequence. You would have to be a heavy M to endure all that shit.

Firstly, for several volumes he was under effect of familiar spell. Secondly, as he said on his own in first volume, he had nowhere to go, nothing to eat and absolutely no idea how this world works. Being a beggar and having no place wasn't a better option to start. He decided to be assertive towards Guiche and he got his ass wiped hardly even with Gandalfr power, right? Also people are enduring much worse crap in real life even now than Saito ...

Originally Posted by allfictions

Whenever did I say anything about Louise's backstory? This is nowhere in my post, are you replying to someone else? I merely talked about how the scenes looks to us from a Doylist perspective, nothing about in-universe justification (even though it would have been trivially easy for me to explain Louise's attitude by what the novels tell us).

Those were my words, but thanks to picking this up. You have made a nice posts.

PS. Also I like that this is not typical fantasy/medieval setting (seriously, this looks like XVII or XVIII France, is not a medieval time.

PS. Anyway I have a illustration from ZnT LN in my signature, so I'm considering possibility that I'm typical blind fan of series xD.

[hibiki3190]

Volume 21