Toradora! - Episode 14 Discussion / Poll

[miroku2192]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Never use individual accounts to make any kind of statement. The larger the group you examine, the less differences matter and the more similarities begin to emerge.

Only by talking about the majority can one make generalized statements.



Everything we do is somewhat influenced by our environment, but yes, individual preferences are important, but on a small scale.

And, what would you prefer, a girl who's "healthy" and independent, or a girl who's flat-chested and doll-bodied, who relies on you for everything that matters?

The girl's personality is definitely another thing to factor in...but the way you write it i'd probably want the healthy girl...

You have a point...anyway i'm still a bit confused/curious as to why Japanese people would like/prefer the "cute" type...if you talk about people raised in the US to like independent girls...then what in Japan makes them like (flat, short, bad tempered, tsundere, cute, unreliable) girls like taiga O_o? Given those descriptions, it'd probably turn anybody off...

edit:

btw what does "Boku wa mousou ja nai." mean? it's in ur sig... "i'm not" what?

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by miroku2192

You have a point...anyway i'm still a bit confused/curious as to why Japanese people would like/prefer the "cute" type...if you talk about people raised in the US to like independent girls...then what in Japan makes them like (flat, short, bad tempered, tsundere, cute, unreliable) girls like taiga O_o? Given those descriptions, it'd probably turn anybody off...

If you don't understand it, I've already proved my point, heh.

It has a lot to do with the rather sexist Japanese view of women, I'd think. I don't really get it myself.

Originally Posted by miroku2192

btw what does "Boku wa mousou ja nai." mean? it's in ur sig... "i'm not" what?

"I'm not a delusion". It's from Chaos;HEAd, again. Probably one of my favorite lines from the entire game so far.

That and "I'm no hero. I'm not going to save the world. I'm going to save Rimi."

[miroku2192]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

If you don't understand it, I've already proved my point, heh.

It has a lot to do with the rather sexist Japanese view of women, I'd think. I don't really get it myself.



"I'm not a delusion". It's from Chaos;HEAd, again. Probably one of my favorite lines from the entire game so far.

That and "I'm no hero. I'm not going to save the world. I'm going to save Rimi."

oh yeah...i was just reading it wrong (out loud)...after i re-read it again, i suddenly remembered (though the anime was a huge disappointment, i've never played the game though, heard it was good)

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by miroku2192

oh yeah...i was just reading it wrong (out loud)...after i re-read it again, i suddenly remembered (though the anime was a huge disappointment, i've never played the game though, heard it was good)

The game is very similar. The anime only sucks because it skipped a couple of awesome arcs and nearly all the important exposition. And rushed through the story like mad.

[Darknemo2000]

Actually I think he menat to say not 'submissive' but 'reliant on'.

I was trying to figure out this phenomena when thinking why it is such huge difference between the way they like Rei and Asuka from Evangelion.

As you know Rei has huge fandom in Japan, on the other hand Asuka is much more popular outside Japan.

And I came to conclusion that such characters like Rei do not really establish themselves, or even if have strong personality, still depend on the main male. A really individualistic heroines are not taht popular in Japan unless they have other Moe features in them.

Taiga pushes a lot of moe buttons - she is tsundere (which is also a moa, as long as its not becoming psychotic like in Asuka's case), but soft one, she is clumsy, and look helpless at times, she is reliant on the male character, looks cute. For me she is like walking talking moe collection type of character thats why I do not really like her character that much, it is not about her being bitchy to Ryuuji but because she is somewhat overloaded with moe features. It's as if the author tried to bring as much sugar as possible. At least there are no glasses cat ears abd maid-uniform, but even without that, I think Taiga is bit overboard moe for my taste.

One of essential parts of liking the character is how reliant character is, due to rather sexist attitude in Japan, which, though decreasing, is still in there.

[Tyabann]

Okay. First, there are much worse characters for Taiga than being Moe Overloaded. Take Mikuru Asahina for example, a send-up of the idea.

Second, "looking cute" should not be a complaint leveled at any female character in anime. That's just stupid.

Lastly, being reliant tends to be something enjoyed by men everywhere, although not to the extent as in Japanese culture. Men want to feel as though they matter and can be depended upon, after all. Men want to feel like heroes.

[Darknemo2000]

Mikuru has some, but Taiga has just as many of those actually. like tries to go though Tsundere moe. Which Mikuru lacked as it took other moestic features road.

Looking cute is not a problem... the problem is when the character is overload with such features and start look very artificial because of that. I like Taiga's problems and character we see sometimes, but her overload of cuteness certainly do annoy me.

Well I never liked too much sugar to begin with so that may be why.

Not all men. At least I like to have a partner/equal to me and not a pet, sorry. If you want to be a true hero and have someone to be totally dependant on you buy a cat or a dog.

[Tyabann]

I swear, it's like every week you have to find something new to complain about...

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

Mikuru has some, but Taiga has just as many of those actually. like tries to go though Tsundere moe. Which Mikuru lacked as it took other moestic features road.

Looking cute is not a problem... the problem is when the character is overload with such features and start look very artificial because of that. I like Taiga's problems and character we see sometimes, but her overload of cuteness certainly do annoy me.

Well I never liked too much sugar to begin with so that may be why.

No, Mikuru is much more moe overloaded. Intentionally. If Taiga's moe features were a big part of her character... but they aren't.

She's mostly the typical loli tsundere, which is a character type seen a LOT in recent years.

Also. I really wouldn't define her as that cute. She looks it. Doesn't act it.

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

Not all men. At least I like to have a partner/equal to me and not a pet, sorry. If you want to be a true hero and have someone to be totally dependant on you buy a cat or a dog.

I was making a generalization. I can do that. Didn't I say earlier that using a large sample of the populace (in this example, half of everybody) allows me to do that accurately?

[Darknemo2000]

Thats the way I am. I love to complain.

Oh but she does. Look at the way she acts around Kitamura, look at her clumsiness and at her being reliant to Ruyuuji.

And all those Tsundere's were moe. Taiga just have a few more features added that the other moe tsunderes didn't have (Neither Shana or Louise had a 'Kitamura trigger' nor they were clumsy and too reliant on the main characters).

You can make generalizations but again it is easy to become over generalizations. And you didn't say half. You said men as in men in general. Which isn't completely true.

It was much more true in lets say 1950 but now the times change, and female is not being looked upon as someone who has to be reliant on the male, just to support their sense of vanity. Now more and more males try to look at females as equal individuals that do not have to reliant on them, just like females now have much clearer understanding in their self and worth than 60 years ago.

Though we still have a lot of sexism in our communities we are moving on. Hopefully such reliant on will carry less and less importance in the relationship.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

Oh but she does. Look at the way she acts around Kitamura, look at her clumsiness and at her being reliant to Ruyuuji.

I find that her defining character trait is her violent tsuntsun nature coupled with the irony of her physical appearance, but whatever.

Taiga wasn't reliant on anyone until she found someone she could rely on. The ONLY person she's really ever been able to rely on.

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

And all those Tsundere's were moe. Taiga just have a few more features added that the other moe tsunderes didn't have (Neither Shana or Louise had a 'Kitamura trigger' nor they were clumsy and too reliant on the main characters).

Shana, Louise, and Nagi all have "male lead" triggers though.

Taiga is unique in that her deredere half is towards Kitamura rather than Ryuuji.

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

You can make generalizations but again it is easy to become over generalizations. And you didn't say half. You said men as in men in general. Which isn't completely true.

"Half" as in "half the population of the planet is male".

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

Now more and more males try to look at females as equal individuals that do not have to reliant on them, just like females now have much clearer understanding in their self and worth than 60 years ago.

No. No men really don't. Why do you think there's still so much marital violence and abuse?

And men still want to feel like heroes around women. Why do you think guys try to show off so much?

[Darknemo2000]

Thats because it still exist... well maybe because I was writing a social survey on women and their self-worth, the changes and the moves on.

My work was based on Great Britain as that was the country I had the most and newest data I could work on but the sexist attitude does still exist in other countries too. It is decreasing and very fast in last few decades but saying that is gone completely thats just way way too optimistic my friend.

Being show off is not really what I call being mature. But again we are human - being mature is very hard for us to do in general. Juts that the reliance on is not important part of any relationship. In fact you just show how weak your Ego is the more you want the female to be reliant on you, because you have less confidence in yourself you have to always prove and reprove your worth to the female as you cannot just rely on simple trust.

It's nothing to be happy about. Luckily societies are moving forwards and being reliant on becomes less and less important feature in relationship even in such conservative society as Japan.

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Lastly, being reliant tends to be something enjoyed by men everywhere, although not to the extent as in Japanese culture. Men want to feel as though they matter and can be depended upon, after all. Men want to feel like heroes.

I dont see 'Half' written anywhere in here.

[Vexx]

I think if all of you would add "some" or "many" to the nouns in all your posts I'd be more copacetic with the remarks by everyone.

[Voitan]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

This is because shipping is bad. And causes hate wars.

But, preemptive assholery isn't justifiable behavior.

If people speak their preferences in a polite manner then who cares? If someone gets bent out of shape over it, who's the troll now?

Example:

A: "Hey, I hope the Red Socks win, they're great"

B: "STOP HAVING YOUR GODDAMN OPINION! RAAAAARRRRRR!!!"

That's bad.

[BigJimmy]

Originally Posted by Voitan

But, preemptive assholery isn't justifiable behavior.

If people speak their preferences in a polite manner then who cares? If someone gets bent out of shape over it, who's the troll now?

Example:

A: "Hey, I hope the Red Socks win, they're great"

B: "STOP HAVING YOUR GODDAMN OPINION! RAAAAARRRRRR!!!"

That's bad.

Red vs Blue says it best (the politics bit)

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Voitan

But, preemptive assholery isn't justifiable behavior.

If people speak their preferences in a polite manner then who cares? If someone gets bent out of shape over it, who's the troll now?

Example:

A: "Hey, I hope the Red Socks win, they're great"

B: "STOP HAVING YOUR GODDAMN OPINION! RAAAAARRRRRR!!!"

That's bad.

But Toradora isn't about "which girl wins". At all.

[Voitan]

Are you reading someone else's post?

Because that's poor form to put your own words into someone else's.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Voitan

Are you reading someone else's post?

Because that's poor form to put your own words into someone else's.

I apologize. I thought that's what you were referring to. Through metaphor.

[Voitan]

It's not the issue I'm concerned about, it's the go out guns blazing attitude people use to stamp out harmless dialogue.

Sure, it's justified if people are "shipping" in the most negative manner possible, but from my estimation it's been fairly tame and respectful for the most part here, but I've seen a few people trolling right away on the most neutral of posts praising a character or imagining their own ideal conclusion to Toradora.

Or in more subtle manners, baiting people to get into a fight.

[Baka Ronin]

What the hell is "shipping"?

Kaisos Erranon is right. This is not about which girl wins. This discussion needs to turn back to the actual episode as indicated in the title of the thread. If you want to discuss character traits not in reference to a particular scene in episode 14, take it to that character's thread, they each have one.

Generalizations are still someone's opinion unless you have hard poling data to back it up. Common understanding of japanese culture is that the men like women who are dependant on them and obey them. Whilst, in this episode and others, Taiga has demonstrated a reliance on Ryuuji for support, she has never been truely submissive.

I agree, people are being hateful towards Ami for no good reason. In this episode she made great strides in understanding herself. Ryuuji also understands her better, but not as well as some people portray it, otherwise he would see she really does have serious feelings for him.

I do not know what to make of Minori's behavior, but I am pretty certain the person that understands it the least is Minori herself.

I am pretty sure Kitamura got shot down pretty bluntly, That's the prez's style. I think Kitamura doesn't know what he really wants either. In this series, only Ami is certain of her own heart.

[LeaD36]

shipping is basically rooting for a couple