Great Anime Ideas that are executed terribly (spoilers)

[Ithekro]

I guess it wouldn't show that people still cared if one looked at the sales for the two new Haruhi light novels would it?

Nor that they will have to come up with another gimick to make it work. Nothing like Endless Eight. You can only pull off a massive timeloop story once in a series. All others will be time travel to interact as specific points in time (as seen in existing materials already), rather than repeated events over and over again. Or perhaps more unusual breaks in time-space.

But that will be a ways off. They have to make Mikuru look good (or bad, depending on your point of view) before they can get back to Haruhi herself.



We might (eventually. No hurry) want to get to something else that isn[t Endless Eight, as there must be something else that was executed poorly that was a great idea.

[Kotohono]

Originally Posted by Last Sinner

They did it to kill Haruhi, make Yuki the more liked one and to allow them to make K-ON for several years in a row. The same 13k people bought all the volumes of E8 in Japan. KyoAni are probably laughing knowing that they intentionally ruined it and they still sold better than a lot of other series that year, along with having the momentum to make nothing but K-ON.

It was a marketing ploy and they are laughing all the way to the bank. Regardless of what they do these days, KyoAni automatically sell. It just shows how easy the paying anime customer is to please. And the customers are empowering them to continue such business practice.

In the end, the consumers in Japan are to blame. They had a chance to make KyoAni pay for being stupid. But 13k people forked out around 300 US/Australian dollars for 8 episodes that are all the same except in miniscule detail. Clearly Yuki in a swimsuit means more to them than substance or plot.

Welcome to modern anime, people.

I really wish the blame would stop getting thrown at kyo-ani for E8, it wasn't their choice. Kadokawa decided what was to be done with the second season and they animated.

[weaponX]

Originally Posted by Bri

I think this is very impressive sci-fi writing and more then justifies this approach of repeated episodes for me.

No, endless 8 was just a gimmick of "it's called endless 8, lets make it 8 episodes!" Previous examples of time loop stories that worked were usually just one episode or movie long, like say Madoka episode 10 or TNG's Cause and Effect.

Maybe at most it should have been three episodes, but the fact it was 8 just proves it was a stupid gimmick.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Bri

Doing something different always holds the risk that (existing) fans are not going to like it, especially with a sequel of a popular show. The random broadcasting order and the Mikuru episode up front in 2006 airing was a similar risk but that one ended up generating positive feedback.

But that doesn't mean anything in and of itself. Yes, we praise the great shows like Cowboy Bebop and Neon Genesis Evangelion because they went out of their way to create something new, but it doesn't mean that every new gimmick deserves to be respected. Putting Endless Eight up there with them would be an insult.

We don't respect every degenerate gambler that takes stupid risks do we? Oh, but I guess it worked, because it sold. Of course, this is no real consolation since this would sell anyways due to name, and it didn't sell as much as season 1.

The random season broadcasting order was simply to add a little flavor to the series and was placed in a manner that one could guess about what's happening as they watch.

Endless Eight doesn't accomplish anything nearly as effective.

What the random broadcasting order and E8 share is that both are gimmicks that are not invasive to the broader story line. On rewatch, anyone can watch it in chronological order and skip the middle episodes of the E8 arc. Leaving a very solid storyline with a similar length to other 2 cour shows.

Not invasive to the story line? 8/14=57%, 8/28= 28%! That's a huge chunk of the storyline devoted to not telling a story. Yes, like I said before; I don't argue that they weren't illustrating a point. But that's still too much time devoted to NOT doing something. I don't wish to watch people not do something about something that's not happening. This is the opposite of storytelling. It's not just a variation, it's a mutilation.

Now many folks may argue many a series uses useless filler, and some can be worse (Shana II), however I don't excuse them for that bit either!

In regard to the conclusion of the arc, E8 is different from conventional timeloop stories (like the one in Madoka for example). Normally one character retains some memories from previous loops and uses that information to find a way out. In E8 Yuki sticks to her "Prime Directive" of non-intervention and the loop resolves by the only way it can:

Spoiler for resolution:

by random chance, a stable process recurring long enough for a random mutaton to occur, visualised by multiple similar episodes. Just like the timeloop becoming unstable over time due to random error, the same happens to Yuki's programming. The resolution of E8 is therefore also the explanation for Yuki's behaviour

I think this is very impressive sci-fi writing and more then justifies this approach of repeated episodes for me.

And like I said, yes I do get it. But the payoff does not equal the cost. In these cases, you absolutely must care for the characters for a resolution to work.

You don't need to animate each part of what happens to hammer in a point. There's a reason why the show never depicts Kyon taking a crap; we know he does, but it's also unnecessary.

You make it sound like that's a bad thing ? They could have just been useless fanservice elements who add nothing to the story. There is at least a plot justification for Yuki and Mikuru to be the emotionless girl and moe-blob.

It's a neutral thing, but it hardly helps. And like I said above, it's hard to care about such characters.

Originally Posted by Konakaga

I really wish the blame would stop getting thrown at kyo-ani for E8, it wasn't their choice. Kadokawa decided what was to be done with the second season and they animated.

Even IF they had to stretch it out to 8 episodes of the same events, it could have been better. Crime of association really-- besides, even if we don't target KyoAni, the result is really the same.

My only jab at them, is that their just seems to be a lot of exceptionalism granted as them. That is, they get praised for what they do even if other studios do the same thing, but that has nothing to do with their quality I guess. Maybe they even deserve it a little, but still...

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Bri

From the perspective of the whole, E8 is a unique way to experience a timeloop story and it set up the plot for the movie in a mostly visual way. I've never seen anything like it on television. As Ithekro said the broadcast enhanced the experience as no one knew how long the loop would be up front. Assuming you were able to watch the episode before running into spoilers.

In the end it depends on the individual fan if they find it worthwile to forgo instant gratification to get a long term pay off.

Here's the thing. There is no such thing as "pay off." Seeing the same episode 7 times before finally having the story continue doesn't give you more pay off than just watching that same episode once and then the conclusion.

This is like telling me that Madoka's ending would've payed off more had I rewatched episode 10, 7 times! You're basically rewatching the same episode. There is nothing creative to this.

If you rewatch something enough times straight, when it isn't even that interesting for most, it is bound to be tiresome. This coupled iwth the fact that Haruhi hadn't seen more anime episodes in 3 years, and they wasted 8 of the 14 episodes on what was but a short little story in the LN. Yeah. Sorry, but rewatching the same episode gives no extra pay off. It gives negative pay off, because by the end, you just wanted to see it all be over rather than actually enjoy it.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by CrowKenobi

At least you got eight different species of monkeys doing that!

Like it or not, you have to admit that Kyoani had the balls to animate the same script eight different ways.

If we're grousing about only eight episodes being the same, how about those that were following Naruto and had to sit through two years of filler episodes...

Long running shonen anime: the filler episodes are the thing that gets terribly executed in most cases.

I fail to understand your points....like at all. I mean this Naruto comparison seems like comparing apples to oranges to me at least and perhaps a little beside the point to say the least.

Also how does admitting that Kyoani had balls make the end product any better? Are we trying to serve there interests by praising them for being daring (in your eyes) or are we trying to serve our interests in trying to find something we can look at and say, "gee, this is really good and I feel like my time was well spent in watching this as opposed to wasted. I might want to buy this when it comes out and I feel I'll be getting my moneys worth by doing so".

Err...so perhaps you can elaborate?

[Random32]

1. I would like to say that I enjoyed every E8 episode during the broadcast run and there was indeed a pay off. That doesn't happen during rewatches, or if you were spoiled about what the episode would be. I skip E8 except the last during rewatches because of this. I would rather have seen the episodes spent on E8 on actual plot, but the effect worked on me I think. If Madoka timeloop was several episodes long, the effect of ep10 would have certainly been more, but SHAFT didn't have enough episodes or enough loyal fanatics that have sex with a pillow with their logo on it every night to do so.

2. I'm pretty sure we should be blaming E8 on Kadokawa rather than KyoAni since KyoAni needs to animate what Kadokawa tells them to.

3. Crow's Naruto comparison assumes you treat all filler-ish things the same. If your only argument is that there could be plot in the time where the filler was, all filler-ish episodes are indeed the same.

[Bri]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

But that doesn't mean anything in and of itself. Yes, we praise the great shows like Cowboy Bebop and Neon Genesis Evangelion because they went out of their way to create something new, but it doesn't mean that every new gimmick deserves to be respected. Putting Endless Eight up there with them would be an insult.

Neither does claiming that "you shouldn't do something just because you can" mean anything in itself. At the end of the day trying something new and untested has an inherent risk of displeasing part of the fans. I'm faily sure that fan expectations influenced the reception of E8 more then the actual execution.

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Not invasive to the story line? 8/14=57%, 8/28= 28%! That's a huge chunk of the storyline devoted to not telling a story. Yes, like I said before; I don't argue that they weren't illustrating a point. But that's still too much time devoted to NOT doing something. I don't wish to watch people not do something about something that's not happening. This is the opposite of storytelling. It's not just a variation, it's a mutilation.

There wasn't any other content left from the LN before Disappearance. They would have had to leave it at about 23 eps or replace E8 with filler to get up to up 14 eps, heh, there is some irony in there, somewhere.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

This coupled iwth the fact that Haruhi hadn't seen more anime episodes in 3 years, and they wasted 8 of the 14 episodes on what was but a short little story in the LN.

Interesting point and again it points to fan expectations rather then execution. Fans waiting for three years for new content without knowing about the movie felt cheated by not getting a full second season and LN readers were confused by the emphasis on a short story.

Anyhows I'm going to leave it at this, before this thread ends up in a second E8 discussion thread, feel free to make some parting comments or send a pm.

[Ravenblitz]

hmm... no one mentioned To Love Ru.. although i kinda liked the art style in Motto i feel they butchered the story fanservice and plotwise

[Bonta Kun]

Originally Posted by Random32

I skip E8 except the last during rewatches because of this. I would rather have seen the episodes spent on E8 on actual plot, but the effect worked on me I think.

See thats the point right there, sure I know everyone has little parts they skip during rewatches but having to skip 8 eps is frankly too many.
Like I said before, I only see hardcore fans buying the DVDs but I wouldn't waste my money on it cause bottom line it is a waste of money.

BTW if a studio doesn't get a say in what they animate what good is that really?

@Ravenblitz: well tbh To Love Ru originally wasn't such a strong idea to start with.
Lets be honest folks, it was cliche as hell and wasn't terribly smart, we only liked it cause it was a great guilty pleasure
Altho Darkness is a shaping up to be a different matter.

But that does remind me of Rosario+Vampire, now that there is a terrible anime adaptation for what is a great manga series.
Only thing I can take away from the anime is it's 2nd season had a awesome OP, one of my top favs but thats it.

[risingstar3110]

The whole point of Endless Eight was probably to:
- annoy the fans
- troll the novel readers and their speculation on Disappearance
- to hide their movie

They got all three and still have reasonable sale disks, with no slash-back on the Movie and the novel sales. Now let's just go back to the topic. This is getting more and more like E8 discussion

[Echoes]

Originally Posted by Ravenblitz

hmm... no one mentioned To Love Ru.. although i kinda liked the art style in Motto i feel they butchered the story fanservice and plotwise

It is my opinion that To Love Ru is exactly the opposite. An entirely horrible idea, seen dozens of time before, but executed in such a way that it's still charming and funny. The latter season and the OVA especially.

[erneiz_hyde]

The fact that many voted Angel Beats means at least many realized that it actually has great stories. I mean, I enjoyed watching it, it seemed fine to me, and I do feel they could do a bit more, but I don't think they are terribly executed. The execution is just beautiful imo, though it does lack 'plot coherency', so to speak. But I think that's just the result of cramming big ideas in one cour anime, and that's too generic a mistake to earn Angel Beats the top award for this thread.

I think the Key to watching Maeda Jun's stories is to not take the plot too seriously and just concentrate on the context of it, or be more empathic to the characters. I understand that some people are just terrible at doing that, and I don't blame them. I mean how many people can make out the plot coherency in Air and Kanon?


Let me add the list by Tsukihime. Let's forget that it was a VN adaptation. The idea that the main character is The Most Efficient Killing Machine on Earth Who is Also a Pacifist sounds like a great idea to me, but I enjoyed watching Dexter more than this.

In hindsight, most adaptation that only last one cour is most likely to be terrible. So, perhaps it will be faster to ask if there is any one-cour VN to anime adaptation that is decent?

[Random32]

Its a generic mistake, but the series had so much unrealized potential due to it.

On the topic of 1 cour VN adaptations. I think Ef was great.

[Bonta Kun]

Oh yea can't believe I forgot to mention the person who is the epitome of good ideas executed terribly, Im Dal-Young.
He has got some good, even great ideas behind his stories but his story telling leaves alot to be desired and I don't mean cause it induces rage or anger towards certain characters but just as a whole in general.

Also for me I have to throw in Oh Great! as well.
I know I'll probably get flak for saying so but I was actually a big fan of Oh Great! before especially for Air Gear but its that exact same story that I've come to dislike him.
Cause for me Air Gear dropped the ball, it started off great but then become to stupid for me given how it started out.
Thing is I can handle stories taking a turn for the weird or even worse and still enjoy it somewhat but I just can't with Air Gear.
And since I stopped reading it, I'm also annoyed cause I have bought some of the manga volumes and I don't want to continue buying cause I know bad it gets yet I've got em so I want to finish collecting.
1 major reason for me coming to dislike Oh Great!

I was thinking of throwing School Rumble into the pot as well but depsite it's rather dire ending, I enjoyed the series as a whole too much to not give crap on how it ended

[foxnaught]

I started reading this thread and was waiting to see how long it took for E8 to pop up. Good to see that the hate for that fiasco still burns strong.

[Gamer_2k4]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

The whole point of Endless Eight was probably to:
- annoy the fans
- troll the novel readers and their speculation on Disappearance
- to hide their movie

They got all three and still have reasonable sale disks, with no slash-back on the Movie and the novel sales. Now let's just go back to the topic. This is getting more and more like E8 discussion

The whole point of E8 was to fill out a season that didn't have enough content. It's the exact same reason that the first season was shown out of order: the original story wasn't long enough to last an entire season, so they crammed filler episodes in between to artificially extend the anime. You'll note that the titular episodes ARE shown in order, even though the other eight aren't.

[Ithekro]

Is something filler if it is the content of a light novel series? Short stories if you will.

[foxnaught]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Is something filler if it is the content of a light novel series? Short stories if you will.

Filler is normally stuff that doesn't progress the story or add anything of value like character development. Think the 3 million Naruto episodes between the first series and Shippuden. The original type of filler was a 'recap' episode, IIRC, which consisted mostly of footage from previous episodes, and was designed to give the animators etc a bit of a break (as they work under a lot of pressure), but now-adays it also includes things like the 'beach episodes' and anything else that's just there to bulk up the episode list.

[Akito Kinomoto]

Originally Posted by foxnaught

Filler is normally stuff that doesn't progress the story or add anything of value like character development. Think the 3 million Naruto episodes between the first series and Shippuden. The original type of filler was a 'recap' episode, IIRC, which consisted mostly of footage from previous episodes, and was designed to give the animators etc a bit of a break (as they work under a lot of pressure), but now-adays it also includes things like the 'beach episodes' and anything else that's just there to bulk up the episode list.

What exactly constitutes as filler will be determined solely by whether or not the work in question is character-driven or plot-driven. Side stories in an active narrative are the most notable kind, merely there to pad out the series and having no effect on the main story. Character-based pieces, by their very nature, nullify any attempt at deviating since the beach episodes, cultural festival episodes or whatever episodes are there for familiarizing the audience with the cast (and probably ingratiate themselves to them).

Going back to Endless Eight for just a moment, it really doesn't matter how good something is executed on a technical level if the rest is just empty. Imagine the most beautifully animated flower you will ever see for a few minutes--can you actually call that good? I couldn't, since I have better chances of looking out the window to see a flower wafting in the breeze than I do looking at the night sky and seeing the Bebop chase down bounty heads. I remember this short animation I saw on Youtube once featuring a girl who was falling through the hills of a neighborhood with the camera angle in position to film her posterior. Beautiful animation and beautiful scenery, but not much else going for it.