[Manga] Chapter 519 Discussion

[NoLongerSane]

Originally Posted by LadyKikyo91

I agree Lee is awesome. Sakura is still a zero. Though I agree Tsunade is a great teacher.

Speaking of which, for some reason there is a Rock Lee Spring Time of Youth chapter that has been released. Really funny yet really odd.

[herculan]

Originally Posted by Frenchie

... Wait, you're saying that Naruto should have more jutsu, or at least enough to compete in numbers with Sasuke, the guy with the jutsu-copying eye?

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha... Hah.

Naruto has never shown a very easy disposition to training. He had to find a creative way to make Rasengan work, he had to be pushed into a huge pit to get Kuchiyose right. His training on Rasen Shuriken needed a few thousand clones and advice from three different jounin's, his training on Sage jutsu got him completely beat up by the toad's stick. The only thing that broke continuity was the first jutsu he learned: Kage Bunshin.

Otherwise he's been hopeless. He's a single-minded guy, I don't see him as the type to use different jutsu the way Kakashi or Sasuke do. That's just not Naruto. I'm happy when he comes up with a Shadow Rasen Shuriken on a big bad, because that's about how much versatility I want on him.

Look, I don't feel very strongly about this and I'm not trying to make a big deal out of it, but when it comes down to it... Yes I do find it a bit weird that atleast 5 characters have a far more complex fighting system then the main character... Whether or not that is due to kekkai genkais like sasuke's sharingan.. The writer only invented those kekkai genkais.. just like he made up that naruto didn't have any real wind element jutsus or a defensive or binding jutsu or what ever.... and I do not agree about naruto ''not having shown a very easy disposition for training''.. Kuchiyose was something INCREDIBLE to have learned at his age and thus normal for him to have to take a little risk for it, same goes for rasengan, rasenshuriken is an S-Rank technique that had never been done before... Sage jutsu is something naruto mastered better and faster then all his predecessors.. so whats up with the no talent??! He could 've learned some more diverse jutsu's but kishi simply didn't feel like that.

[milan kyuubi]

Naruto ability to learn slowly is do to him not having parents or other people to help him while growing up. Having working habit beat in your head by your parents does wonders believe me I know

[kitten320]

Originally Posted by NoLongerSane

Speaking of which, for some reason there is a Rock Lee Spring Time of Youth chapter that has been released. Really funny yet really odd.

There are 2 of them now.

[Poetic Justice]

That rock lee manga was more funny than naruto has been for the past 5 years and confirms that neji too, Was a closet pervert all along.

[Haak]

I pissed myself laughng at those chapters. Dear God it was brilliant.

And we also found out why Kakashi wears a mask all the time. XD

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by herculan

I do not agree about naruto ''not having shown a very easy disposition for training''.. Kuchiyose was something INCREDIBLE to have learned at his age and thus normal for him to have to take a little risk for it, same goes for rasengan, rasenshuriken is an S-Rank technique that had never been done before... Sage jutsu is something naruto mastered better and faster then all his predecessors.. so whats up with the no talent??! He could 've learned some more diverse jutsu's but kishi simply didn't feel like that.

Kuchiyose is a C-rank jutsu. Summoning someone as powerful as Gama Bunta is an amazing feat because it requires a large amount of chakra, which Naruto has in abundance when he uses the Kyuubi. The basic technique itself isn't too difficult if you have any kind of decent chakra control. Jiraiya was frustrated because Naruto sucked so bad at chakra control that he couldn't summon anything bigger than a tadpole with normal chakra because of all the energy he wastes. Similarly, Fukasaku explained senjutsu training isn't about talent, it's about determination and having a huge amount of chakra.

Naruto isn't a jutsu sponge who quickly soaks up any technique he wants and makes it his own. Jiraiya flat out refused to teach Naruto genjutsu (even when he asked to learn it) because he realized he had no talent for it and it would be a waste of time. Naruto has unlimited amount of determination, and near-infinite, stamina and chakra. Given that someone can plainly lay out the mechanics of a jutsu for him, he'll usually figure out how to make it work. But he doesn't learn jutsu effortlessly and his teachers realize he needs to focus on the jutsu that best suit his tremendous power.

[Ashaman]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Jiraiya was frustrated because Naruto sucked so bad at chakra control that he couldn't summon anything bigger than a tadpole with normal chakra because of all the energy he wastes.

Erm, no. Jiriya wanted him to learn to access the Kyuubi's chakra there, and so forced Naruto to drain his chakra with shadow clones and water walking.

Whenever Naruto summoned during the month, it was with very low chakra.

THat was why he got tadpoles. When he did have chakra, he got Gamamichi

Ero-Sennin was frustrated becasue Naruto wasn't using the kyuubi's chakra.

[herculan]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Kuchiyose is a C-rank jutsu. Summoning someone as powerful as Gama Bunta is an amazing feat because it requires a large amount of chakra, which Naruto has in abundance when he uses the Kyuubi. The basic technique itself isn't too difficult if you have any kind of decent chakra control. Jiraiya was frustrated because Naruto sucked so bad at chakra control that he couldn't summon anything bigger than a tadpole with normal chakra because of all the energy he wastes. Similarly, Fukasaku explained senjutsu training isn't about talent, it's about determination and having a huge amount of chakra.

Naruto isn't a jutsu sponge who quickly soaks up any technique he wants and makes it his own. Jiraiya flat out refused to teach Naruto genjutsu (even when he asked to learn it) because he realized he had no talent for it and it would be a waste of time. Naruto has unlimited amount of determination, and near-infinite, stamina and chakra. Given that someone can plainly lay out the mechanics of a jutsu for him, he'll usually figure out how to make it work. But he doesn't learn jutsu effortlessly and his teachers realize he needs to focus on the jutsu that best suit his tremendous power.

You do make a lot of assumptions, for example:
Fukasaku said senjutsu was about determination and a lot of chakra indeed, but he never mentioned you didn't need talent...
Same goes for teaching naruto genjutsu..
and I based the difficulty level of kuchiyose on the fact that 0 other age mates of naruto have been able to master the technique...
Furthermore, I'd like to add that even WITH all these assumptions... In the end its just kishi who decided naruto shouldn't have more jutsu's and thats where I don't completely agree with how he made his main character...

[naruske]

I really think at this point, Naruto and Sasuke's match up would be quite even. If you see how Sasuke has fought in the last couple of battles, lightning techniques are going to be out of the question because of Naruto's wind nature. Sasuke relies on his eyes for power. We'll have to see what's different with his new eyes. Naruto is now mastering the kyubi stuff which has really increased his speed and strength.

[Ulquiorra]

Originally Posted by naruske

I really think at this point, Naruto and Sasuke's match up would be quite even. If you see how Sasuke has fought in the last couple of battles, lightning techniques are going to be out of the question because of Naruto's wind nature.

Good thing for Sasuke that he also has katon which Naruto's fuuton is weak against.

[Shiryuu]

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

Good thing for Sasuke that he also has katon which Naruto's fuuton is weak against.

I doubt that will matter against pure kyuubi chakra.

[Kafriel]

How about pure evil chakra of darkness amaterasu enton or whatever else Sasuke pulls? Which is kinda confusing, because it's an ocular jutsu but still of fire element.

[Shiryuu]

Ameterasu won't doing anything against TBB. At best it'll wrap black fires around it, then explode all over Sasuke and burn himself.

[LadyKikyo91]

[QUOTE=kitten320;3377241]There are 2 of them now.[/QUOTDamn you make me wanna see it now where is it at?

Originally Posted by Frenchie

... Wait, you're saying that Naruto should have more jutsu, or at least enough to compete in numbers with Sasuke, the guy with the jutsu-copying eye?

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha... Hah.

Naruto has never shown a very easy disposition to training. He had to find a creative way to make Rasengan work, he had to be pushed into a huge pit to get Kuchiyose right. His training on Rasen Shuriken needed a few thousand clones and advice from three different jounin's, his training on Sage jutsu got him completely beat up by the toad's stick. The only thing that broke continuity was the first jutsu he learned: Kage Bunshin.

Otherwise he's been hopeless. He's a single-minded guy, I don't see him as the type to use different jutsu the way Kakashi or Sasuke do. That's just not Naruto. I'm happy when he comes up with a Shadow Rasen Shuriken on a big bad, because that's about how much versatility I want on him.

But still you can't disagree that it wouldn't hurt for him to be able to more variations with the rasengan or perhaps be able to use it one hand.Sauce has like ten thousand ( overexaggerated number) jutsu and naruto uses the same basic tricks all of the time. You get pretty predictable when you use the same tricks over and over again and it amazes me that noone in the manga has picked up on that. If he goes in doing that same thing in that battle against Sasuke not only is the battle going to be boring but by all logic it isn't going to go so well for him. Sasuke has a major advantage in that he is skilled with Genjutsu so how is Naruto going to defend himself against that. We need to see more than just simple minded rasengans this is a genius he is going up against basic traicks won't work against him and it sure as hell won't work against Madara Uchiha who is like 180 years old and has seen every trick in the book. He needs more than a big rasengan to make his inevitable victory at the end of the series believable.

[Frenchie]

But still you can't disagree that it wouldn't hurt for him to be able to more variations with the rasengan or perhaps be able to use it one hand.Sauce has like ten thousand ( overexaggerated number) jutsu and naruto uses the same basic tricks all of the time. You get pretty predictable when you use the same tricks over and over again and it amazes me that noone in the manga has picked up on that. If he goes in doing that same thing in that battle against Sasuke not only is the battle going to be boring but by all logic it isn't going to go so well for him. Sasuke has a major advantage in that he is skilled with Genjutsu so how is Naruto going to defend himself against that. We need to see more than just simple minded rasengans this is a genius he is going up against basic traicks won't work against him and it sure as hell won't work against Madara Uchiha who is like 180 years old and has seen every trick in the book. He needs more than a big rasengan to make his inevitable victory at the end of the series believable.

You should really make paragraphs, it makes your post much more readable.

I don't disagree with the idea of more jutsu, I disagree with the idea of jutsus that take away from the basic mold of the character. By that I mean I don't mind him learning jutsu that assist/enchance his already existing abilities.
Shikamaru is a great example of a guy that could learn a decent amount of jutsu, but he focuses on his shadow techniques. That's where his strength lies and he knows it. Naruto only needs jutsu that reinforces his strengths.

Should I explain?

Naruto expanded the use of power in Rasengan with Oodama Rasengan. Sage jutsu increases that power even further. Elemental training reinforces Rasengan and makes it more versatile by adding an element. Sage jutsu reinforces that elemental jutsu so he can throw it.
In order to use Rasengan, in order to use Sage Jutsu and in order to use elemental jutsu, Naruto has always relied on Kage Bunshin. It's his trademark technique, his taijutsu supplement and his secret cheatcode to learn more jutsu. Naruto isn't a ninjutsu type, or a taijutsu type or a genjutsu type. Heck he's not even elemental. The character concept is based on essentially one technique that he has honed to perfection.
Kyuubi mode has been the only jutsu that has broken that continuity and seems to stand on its own as a power-up, possibly because it's really just a trump card.

Now that this has been explained, I have absolutely loved Kishi showing Naruto use Shadow Shuriken no Jutsu at the same time as Rasen Shuriken. That's a technique I've seen with Itachi vs Sasuke, but Naruto doing it was a pleasant surprise.
That's the only kind of additional jutsu I want to see from the main character. Support kinds or ones that go hand in hand with his pre-existing abilities. Not new, stitched techniques on top of the concept. It doesn't work for me. For example, when Itachi/Kisame fought with Kakashi/Asuma/Kurenai, Itachi used an exploding shadow clone. That would totally work with his basic concept.
Or maybe he could learn wind clone jutsu (there's raiton bunshin, so why not kaze bunshin?) to mix them in with regular Kage Bunshin to confuse his enemy. I would love seeing that from Naruto, that's the kind of support jutsu I want to see from him. Things that go hand-in-hand.

You may think that Rasengan is the recurring jutsu, but that's not really the case. The one jutsu Naruto uses the most is Kage Bunshin. You may or may not like the character being based on that particular jutsu, but that's how it's been from the start and that's how he's won most of his battles.

[herculan]

Originally Posted by Frenchie

You may think that Rasengan is the recurring jutsu, but that's not really the case. The one jutsu Naruto uses the most is Kage Bunshin. You may or may not like the character being based on that particular jutsu, but that's how it's been from the start and that's how he's won most of his battles.

I'm sorry, its simply not true.. Kage bunshin is the jutsu he used to train and do stuff with and its a real good jutsu.. very versatile and all. But rasengan is an attack I never really liked since it resembles the principles of Dragon Ball too much.. And the other offensive jutsus hes gotten are oodama rasengan, chou oodooma rasengan and fuuton rasengshuuriken.... and sage mode is simply nothing more then an extra chakra pool.. its not a fun to see visible jutsu..

its not a question about what jutsu keeps recurring the most, but about the fact that they ALL are recurring....
This is where our opinions differ, but I find naruto in desperate need of more jutsu...
You say it needs to fit in his fighting arsenal.. like a wind clone.. Okay I'm fine with that..
That would be best indeed, but even that is optional.. Look at sasuke.. what does his lightning style have to do with his fire style or with any of his mangekyou techniques or genjutsus...

[Frenchie]

Originally Posted by herculan

I'm sorry, its simply not true.. Kage bunshin is the jutsu he used to train and do stuff with and its a real good jutsu.. very versatile and all. But rasengan is an attack I never really liked since it resembles the principles of Dragon Ball too much.. And the other offensive jutsus hes gotten are oodama rasengan, chou oodooma rasengan and fuuton rasengshuuriken.... and sage mode is simply nothing more then an extra chakra pool.. its not a fun to see visible jutsu..

its not a question about what jutsu keeps recurring the most, but about the fact that they ALL are recurring....
This is where our opinions differ, but I find naruto in desperate need of more jutsu...
You say it needs to fit in his fighting arsenal.. like a wind clone.. Okay I'm fine with that..
That would be best indeed, but even that is optional.. Look at sasuke.. what does his lightning style have to do with his fire style or with any of his mangekyou techniques or genjutsus...

Not true? In order to use Rasengan, he uses Kage Bunshin. It's his trademark technique whether you like it or not. It supplements almost all of his latter abilities.

Sasuke has a style: It's just centered around his sharingan. You know, the jutsu-copying eye. Why is it such a surprise that he's more versatile than Naruto?

[james0246]

New thread started...but no spoilers yet.