NBA and College Basketball Thread

[Mentar]

Give. This. Man. A. Ring. Already.

[justinstrife]

If Miami wins this year, it will be very bad for the NBA... The entire league is rooting against them, and for good reasons.

Also, Dirk and Kidd deserve a ring more so than anyone still playing in the Finals. This might be their last chance at it.

[Elo the Blue]

Originally Posted by justinstrife

If Miami wins this year, it will be very bad for the NBA... The entire league is rooting against them, and for good reasons.

Also, Dirk and Kidd deserve a ring more so than anyone still playing in the Finals. This might be their last chance at it.

How exactly would Miami winning it all be "very bad" for the NBA? In my opinion, the reasons people are rooting against them are pretty flimsy.

I'll give you Dirk but I don't see how Kidd necessarily deserves a title more than anyone else. He's been around forever. Is that it?

[justinstrife]

Originally Posted by Elo the Blue

How exactly would Miami winning it all be "very bad" for the NBA? In my opinion, the reasons people are rooting against them are pretty flimsy.

I'll give you Dirk but I don't see how Kidd necessarily deserves a title more than anyone else. He's been around forever. Is that it?

Jason Kidd is one of the best players of his position period, and also one of the oldest players to be still playing the game. It isn't just because of how long he's been playing, but how much he has contributed.

As for Miami winning being bad for the NBA, it's bad because it sets up a formula, that all you need is 3 superstars thrown in together, and you can win a title in your first year, without having to work for it. There's no more, a team working at getting that title over several years, working on overall team cohesion, no more focus on everyone contributing. All you need is three guys to do it all. The NBA becomes less of a team game. Michael Jordan didn't win his first title for years while he was with the Bulls. It took time with the team he spent the most of his career on.

It no longer becomes how deep is your team, but who has the most super stars. THAT is bad for the NBA, and bad for the majority of teams who will now become nothing more than a side show for the 3-4 teams who will have this new formula.

[Elo the Blue]

Originally Posted by justinstrife

Jason Kidd is one of the best players of his position period, and also one of the oldest players to be still playing the game. It isn't just because of how long he's been playing, but how much he has contributed.

As for Miami winning being bad for the NBA, it's bad because it sets up a formula, that all you need is 3 superstars thrown in together, and you can win a title in your first year, without having to work for it. There's no more, a team working at getting that title over several years, working on overall team cohesion, no more focus on everyone contributing. All you need is three guys to do it all. The NBA becomes less of a team game. Michael Jordan didn't win his first title for years while he was with the Bulls. It took time with the team he spent the most of his career on.

It no longer becomes how deep is your team, but who has the most super stars. THAT is bad for the NBA, and bad for the majority of teams who will now become nothing more than a side show for the 3-4 teams who will have this new formula.

Kidd is still a good player but it isn't among the best PGs anymore. Paul, Rondo, Williams and Nash are all clearly ahead of him in my opinion and you could make a strong argument that Westbrook, Billups, Parker and even Nelson are better right now.

I completely disagree with your second and third paragraphs. Frankly, your reasoning is weak.

The NBA has always been a superstar-driven league. I challenge you to name five championship teams that didn't have at least two superstars. The Lakers won titles the two previous seasons not only because of Kobe and Gasol but also due to them having supreme talents in Odom and Bynum, in addition to a when-focused, deadly player in Artest. The Celtics won it all the year before primarily because of Pierce, Allen and KG, along with a great supporting cast. It's no surprise they've continued to be successful as Rondo has grown into an All-Star.

Going back further, the Spurs built their dynasty with three studs in Duncan, Ginobli and Parker. The Bulls won one of their three-peats with MJ, Pippen and Rodman. The Lakers of the 80s had multiple All-Stars beyond Magic and Kareem.

Although they won nothing, Barkley, The Dream and Drexler teamed up towards the ende of their careers.

There's a chance Paul and Howard will join quality teams in the coming seasons but how teams are built won't change drastically if Miami prevails. For one, superstar players aren't floating around every off-season and not every organization will be willing to blow up their team and roll their dice with a top-heavy but shallow squad.

[Dilla]

The NBA has never been a league of parity. Like Elo said, the Celtic and Laker teams of the 80s had multiple Hall of Famers on one team. And the fans, no matter what they say, like it like this. More people have watched the NBA more this year than previous and the most watched team have been the Miami Heat.

[Last Sinner]

Furthermore, Miami was not a big basketball city. Even after 2006, things weren't going great for them financially. This is a long-term investment by Pat Riley to not only win championships but to boost the status of Miami so that there will be a healthy fanbase once James, Wade and Bosh have finished their careers.

Only 8 of 30 teams made money this year. The other 22 lost money. NBA lost $300 million this year.

THAT should be your concern in terms of the league.

As for players who 'deserve' championships - that argument could extend to PLENTY of people who were Hall of Famers/superstars but didn't get that ring. Karl Malone, Patrick Ewing, Charles Barkley, Reggie Miller, Allen Iverson - you could go on all day.

But that's sport. Only a minority of those that 'deserve' a ring/championship get one. It happens in all sport. That's the consequence of having so many teams in a sport where only one can be champion.

[weaponX]

First let me get this off my chest:

ZOMG DIRK! DIRK! DIRK! DIRK! YEESSS!

Ok, now that that's out of my system, I want to address some of the previous posts and my thoughts.

Originally Posted by justinstrife

If Miami wins this year, it will be very bad for the NBA... The entire league is rooting against them, and for good reasons.

Also, Dirk and Kidd deserve a ring more so than anyone still playing in the Finals. This might be their last chance at it.

I don't like Miami either, but the fact of the matter is, regardless if Miami or Dallas wins, it is good for the league because of the storylines involved, and having compelling storylines is important to getting ratings. Dallas is the team of talented nice-guy veterans trying to win it all, and Miami are the "villians" so to speak which most people like to root against. And the NBA will take whatever help it can get to boost ratings.

Originally Posted by justinstrife

As for Miami winning being bad for the NBA, it's bad because it sets up a formula, that all you need is 3 superstars thrown in together, and you can win a title in your first year, without having to work for it. There's no more, a team working at getting that title over several years, working on overall team cohesion, no more focus on everyone contributing. All you need is three guys to do it all. The NBA becomes less of a team game. Michael Jordan didn't win his first title for years while he was with the Bulls. It took time with the team he spent the most of his career on.

It no longer becomes how deep is your team, but who has the most super stars. THAT is bad for the NBA, and bad for the majority of teams who will now become nothing more than a side show for the 3-4 teams who will have this new formula.

People don't root for Miami because they put a bunch of superstars together, people don't root for them because of the way the team was put together. At its simplest, Miami added players in the offseason, as any team does, and 2 of them happened to be really good. The players in question don't have criminal records, did not say anything really politically incorrect, and are really talented players. From that perspective alone, Miami did what any team strives to do: put together the best team possible, and for that, Miami is not guilty of anything, nor are the players for exercising their right to sign where they please.

At issue is how those players came together. Chris Bosh really left in a classless way from Toronto in the way he would tweet any random thought that came into his head about where he wanted to go, almost kind of taunting Toronto that he's leaving, and there's nothing they can do.

In LeBron's case, he had several things going against him. First, he was the hometown boy. He was supposed to be the local kid who could bring a title and hope to a franchise and a city that desperately needed it. And it was not just the fact that he left. He promised, on national television, that he would deliver a title to Cleveland, and now he reneged on that promise with out even so much as an apology or an explanation. Second, he did it, holding out for weeks without telling anybody, and then had a special to do it. Maybe the act of leaving wasn't bad, but how he chose to do it was. this is why people do not like rooting for Miami.

Originally Posted by Elo the Blue

The NBA has always been a superstar-driven league. I challenge you to name five championship teams that didn't have at least two superstars. The Lakers won titles the two previous seasons not only because of Kobe and Gasol but also due to them having supreme talents in Odom and Bynum, in addition to a when-focused, deadly player in Artest. The Celtics won it all the year before primarily because of Pierce, Allen and KG, along with a great supporting cast. It's no surprise they've continued to be successful as Rondo has grown into an All-Star.

Going back further, the Spurs built their dynasty with three studs in Duncan, Ginobli and Parker. The Bulls won one of their three-peats with MJ, Pippen and Rodman. The Lakers of the 80s had multiple All-Stars beyond Magic and Kareem.

Although they won nothing, Barkley, The Dream and Drexler teamed up towards the ende of their careers.

There's a chance Paul and Howard will join quality teams in the coming seasons but how teams are built won't change drastically if Miami prevails. For one, superstar players aren't floating around every off-season and not every organization will be willing to blow up their team and roll their dice with a top-heavy but shallow squad.

The league is superstar driven, and as I said before, Miami just did what every team strives to do, which is field the best possible squad. And people do like watching good teams. Be honest here, what team would you rather watch, the Celtics or the Tmberwolves? The Lakers or the Kings?

Originally Posted by Last Sinner

Furthermore, Miami was not a big basketball city. Even after 2006, things weren't going great for them financially. This is a long-term investment by Pat Riley to not only win championships but to boost the status of Miami so that there will be a healthy fanbase once James, Wade and Bosh have finished their careers.

Only 8 of 30 teams made money this year. The other 22 lost money. NBA lost $300 million this year.

THAT should be your concern in terms of the league.

As for players who 'deserve' championships - that argument could extend to PLENTY of people who were Hall of Famers/superstars but didn't get that ring. Karl Malone, Patrick Ewing, Charles Barkley, Reggie Miller, Allen Iverson - you could go on all day.

But that's sport. Only a minority of those that 'deserve' a ring/championship get one. It happens in all sport. That's the consequence of having so many teams in a sport where only one can be champion.

A couple things to note here. First, perhaps the league really is losing that much money, but its management's fault, not the players. If you look at the Spurs, they are a small market, but have won 4 titles, and aren't in dire straights because they draft well, and make shrewd but good moves to build championship caliber teams, without going over the cap or going far over the cap. As much as I don't like them, you have to admire the way they are managed.

I don't think I need to supply a history lesson of outrageous contracts given to players. The fact is, you should be paying a player based on what they should do in the future, not what they have done, and many GM's have not learned this lesson. Even good players can be vastly overpaid. Look at Rashard Lewis and Orlando. He's a heck of a player, but there's no way he was worth over 100 mil when he was first signed by them. Further, they could have had him for much less. And when you look at the magic now, they don't have the financial freedom to vastly re-shape their roster without drastic trades, which isn't easy to do. Recently, even Derek Fisher was quoted as saying that an owner had came to him and said "we need to be protected from ourselves." That's not the players fault, it's the owners.

Finally, It's true. a lot of players "deserve" titles, but that's not how the NBA works, or how life works for that matter. Life is not "hey everyone participated! TITLES FOR EVERYONE!" It's that kind of mentality that is just one of America's problems. Everyone thinks they are entitled to something, or something better. Fact is, you have to work for it, and work hard. And sometimes, even very deserving players will not win anything. That's what makes the title so special. If we gave it out to everyone we thought "should" have it, it would only lessen its meaning and value greatly. Champions are champions for a reason, and as the Jordan commercial goes, there are no Cinderellas.

[yeahitschris]

seems like Wade and LeBron celebrating caused them the lost

Jason Terry: LeBron and D-Wade Celebration Was Turning Point Of Game 2

Dallas ended Game 2 on a 22-5 run, which said plenty about their mental toughness and a little about Miami as well. The Heat was done in by a lethal combination of premature celebrating and inexplicably settling for long jump shots.

"Every team when they go on a run does something," Dwyane Wade said. "Celebration is confetti and champagne bottles. There wasn't a celebration. If it pumped them up ... they won the game."

The Mavs appeared to be done when Wade completed an emphatic 13-0 run with a 3-pointer. He and the Heat celebrated like the game was over, a moment that was not lost on the Mavs.

"It was the turning point of the game," said Jason Terry, who scored eight of his 16 points in the fourth. "If we don't score, we're pretty much dead."

After the Heat took an 88-73 lead with 7:15 left to play, Miami missed 10 of its last 11 shots. Seven of those shots were 3-pointers, including Wade's runner from behind the arc that hit the back rim as time expired.

[Elo the Blue]

Getting excited after a big run didn't lose Miami the game. Trying to milk clock and running iso plays doomed them.

[Mentar]

It's not meant as disrespectful trolling, but I found this just too funny (and true) to ignore it: ^_^

[justinstrife]

You guys didn't even read what I typed.

I said it was the immediate success that Miami is enjoying, that people don't like. They want the team to work for it. Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, and other super stars had other super stars around them of course. But they also didn't win the first year they got together. They had to go through wins and losses like every other team and build cohesion.

I'm not the only one who feels the way I do, and the sports world has more people that agree with me than not. So say what you want about my arguments, but I wouldn't give yours anymore credibility than you've given mine. Since you don't bother to read them.

[Elo the Blue]

Originally Posted by justinstrife

You guys didn't even read what I typed.

I said it was the immediate success that Miami is enjoying, that people don't like. They want the team to work for it. Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, and other super stars had other super stars around them of course. But they also didn't win the first year they got together. They had to go through wins and losses like every other team and build cohesion.

I'm not the only one who feels the way I do, and the sports world has more people that agree with me than not. So say what you want about my arguments, but I wouldn't give yours anymore credibility than you've given mine. Since you don't bother to read them.

I don't want to speak for anyone but I read what you wrote and responded appropriately. I felt your initial point that it would be "very bad" for the NBA if Miami won a title this year because it would given other teams a championship blueprint was just dumb.

Now you say people don't like the Heat's immediate success. Fair enough. They're entitled to their opinions but it just reinforces my feeling that the dislike for the Heat outside of Cleveland is rather fickle.

People may not like it but did they really think arguably the most physically talented player in NBA history, one of the better players of this generation and a really good offensive big man wouldn't be able to gel their first season together?

Boston's Big Three won't it all their first year together. Did they not work for their title? Where was the hate then? Then reality is people disliking the Heat boils down them disliking LeBron, The Decision, the off-season celebration and media hype.

I also forgot Magic won a title his first year with Kareem. I highly doubt basketball fans around the country were upset they didn't go through trials and tribulations to win that championship.

[yeahitschris]

[Last Sinner]

Despite all the hate towards Miami and Lebron, face it - if Miami hadn't done what they did, thre wouldn't have been as much hype about this season and the finals. Despite Lebron's mishandling of 'The Decision', his Miami jersey is the highest selling jersey this season. There's a new wave of interest in the NBA because of Miami. And I'll be honest - I started watching the NBA again because of what Miami did. I could never properly respect Boston because of Paul Pierce. I could never truly respect the Lakers properly because Bryant's off-court antics are pretty pathetic, O'Neal got greedy and the Buss family are pretty brutal. Couldn't respect Cleveland because they had a top-tier in Lebron and failed over seven years to build around properly. Couldn't respect Orlando because Stan van Gundy runs his mouth off at the worst times possible and his team let him down versus LA when they had opportune moments to take charge - Howard mouthed off way too much that Finals series as well. Dallas - their players are admirable. But Cuban...ergh, for all he does, sometimes he's as much of a deterrent as he is a drawcard.

Miami - Pat Riley knows what it takes. He did great with the Lakers in the 80s and he managed to get a bunch of ring-less top tiers their long awaited ring in 2006. And few people could have turned around that 2006 series like Riley did. 0-2 down, he told them they would win in six and how they'd do it. And they did. As for the negativity about how Miami do business - well, they're doing it to put pressure on themselves. They know that getting no championships is unacceptable. This team has to get championships. Riley is trying to build another dynasty, Spoelstra has done the hard yards for years within Miami and now has his chance.

Miami made me want to watch basketball again. I haven't felt this way about the game since the days of Michael Jordan.

[Alchemist007]

Awesome game, can't believe Dirk missed that last throw. Onto game 4.

[Elo the Blue]

Heat take the historically-significant Game 3!

And Wade continues to show why he's been may favorite NBA player since '04.

[judasmartel]

Only 4 teams swept the middle three games (i.e. Game 3, 4, and 5) of the NBA Finals:

- 1990 Detroit Pistons
- 1991 Chicago Bulls
- 2001 Los Angeles Lakers
- 2004 Detroit Pistons

Among the four teams, only the 2004 Pistons swept their three home games in the NBA Finals. The other three teams swept their three road games.

Probably the reason why Game 3 is important when both teams are tied at 1-1. Middle games sweep are rare though.

[Last Sinner]

Wow, just like last year's Finals, the Game 2 road win is countered immediately with a Game 3 road win. But this time, I think Miami will come out of Dallas with a 3-2 lead.

Kudos to Bosh for coming back despite getting that poke in the eye, still making a decent contribution and hitting the game winner.

Mavs certainly missed Haywood.

Kidd said a very telling thing in his press conference - 'Someone else other than Dirk has to score for us.'

[Dilla]

Big WTF.

Mark Jackson hired by Warriors as head coach despite having ZERO coaching experience.