About Shinn and Kira...

[wingdarkness]

The only posts I that I was able to remember saving were posts that involved long posts about Shinn and Kira, so If you have similiar posts about Shinn and Kira please post them here...

Originally Posted by justinstrife

And you guys keep bringing up the pwnage of Destroy in 32. That was a plot device in and of itself. That episode was a total joke. For Destroy, AND Kira. Oh and Chaos too for being the first and only Gundam in the C.E. Universe, NOT to be taken out by another Gundam.

Shinn taking out the Orb Fleet by itself... Whoop dee doo. I'd like to think a Zaft Coordinator Ace with a Gundam, could take out a Natural's fleet rather easily. It happened in SEED. What makes Shinn and Impulse any different? It's a given that EA/Orb Naturals get PWNED every episode by Zaft forces. We've seen it for 100 episodes. I'd think Kira wouldn't need to acknowledge or give praise to Shinn for doing that. It'd be EXPECTED OF HIM.

Name one ZAFT pilot that has done what Shinn did?? ONE?!?!?!? Not even the great Rau or Athrun has as many kills (yes kills, see Tomino)or has been as important to his military's war-survival...You continue drinking the haterade don't you?? Also lets not forget ORB pilots, some of them are Coordinators (I suspect many of them are like Baba who are extremely skilled)...The reason Shinn OWNs DESTROY while Kira cannot is because Kira is a ranged fighter trying not to kill while Shinn is a melee/close-quarters fighter trying to kill...Kira should have taken out DESTROY...I have no problem with that...Perhaps he was thinking more non-sensical theories and ignoring the abilities of yet another pilot while hundreds of thousands continued to die...

So I think I finally understand you fans...Kira is above normal human thinking...nominal battle reasoning...average processing skills (in terms of the actual battle-situation)...So ya'll basically saying he's some sort of idiot-savant (for those don't know idiot-savant's are intelligence's contradictory enigma, which basically means he's smart enuff to think of war on a heightened-plane, but not smart enuff or plain ignorant to understand the Mobile Suits in the path of his heightend understanding needs to be examined to be beaten, when he was incapable of beating them thanks to this heightened plane of thinking)...I'm not calling him "Rain-man", but based on the logic of some of your defencing of him(4tran and Demongod aswell) I do bellieve he may fall into this category...which means some of you think Kira is somewhat retarted...I don't believe this at all...But to ignore the obvious points I've been raising he'd almost have to be...has)...

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by FalconX2000

You guys are turning this into an anti-Kira thread. Keep your heads cool before Mr Paper puts the thread on ice, permanently.




Where was it shown that Kira knew through newtype abilities that Shinn was piloting Impulse?

First-off it's psuedo-NEWTYPE, which means these abilities I speak of don't exist, Secondly right after Shinn disconnects IMPULSEs mid-section and thrashes Kira from the backside Kira seems to flashback to when he and Shinn first met at Orb, then he says something along the lines of "Such a..., is this?" right as his beam-rifle gets tagged....So from that I believe he has sensed who he's fighting...

And yes, it would have been way better if Kira and Shinn were able to interact through dialogue. Not only would it have improved the story, but it would make Shinn seem like a somewhat more rational character by explaining his reasoning to the viewers.

I started to dislike Shinn the moment he badmouthed Cagalli. Don't get me wrong, its not the insulting of Cagalli that really ticked me off. Its that he was an enlisted officer aboard a military vessel, during a state of emergency, and he insulted the head of a foreign allied country, in plain view of everyone including the chairman himself, then floated off into a corridor as if he'd done nothing wrong. This was repeated over and over till they reached Earth. He also had this really irratonal mentality, as was displayed fully in episode 6 when he was impressed with Athrun's bravery and strength: "why is someone like you in ORB?"

I did, however, still have sympathy for his character until episode 28. He still had his ups to go with the downs until that point, and I was even growing a little fond of him till that episode.

You guys...So a new character is introduced in a new series...First episode it's shown his family dies BRUTALLY (Courtesy of FREEDOM BTW which Fukuda changed to FORBIDDEN in the Shinn flashback ep as not to stain his hands) and because of this he has a misguided hatred toward the nation that allowed this to happen...He gets pi$$ed at an old cast member for saying something that hurts him to the core...He has no clue what Cagali has gone thru or the situations she's seen, he being bull-headed yet pure in his statements...I say so what? Give his character a chance...If that's what made you dislike Shinn in the beginning you must hate Cammille who talked straight trash to everyone on Argama until he realized his purpose, and Mr. Wong "corrected" his a$$...He isn't the first uniformed GUNDAM pilot to pi$$ others off and not go by the books and he won't be the last hopefully...Some of you guys just want everything to go smooth sailing for "Your side"....Conflicts, misunderstandings (In terms of ideals and motivations) is what makes Gundam great...and further makes this series a failure for Shinn, but suprisingly enuff for Kira aswell...


As for ep 28 it remains the best overall episode in the series IMO (Who knew it would be the last truley great episode of this entire series though) It's like you guys don't want any conflict or diverging dynamics (The stuff that has always made GUNDAM great)..If Shinn doesn't fire on Cagali you get a stale-a$$ boring-ass sequence of events instead of the great unpredictabilty and drama that episode produced...Your being a fan, I'm sorry...You want the AA side//Kira-Cagali side to be pampered and not challenged...Don't forget Heine and the victim's of the Taunhauser explosion who Shinn holds dear to his heart as he fire upon this unpredictable force who would become an established enemy of ZAFT...Shinn ain't got time to be listening to no speeches with Auel doing sub-water backstrokes beneath him...Your being bias...ofcourse it suprised me what he did, but that's what made that episode so great because it was the one episode in this entire series (besides the first 8) that was suprising and surpassed expectations...I don't know anybody that doesn't like ep 28 as an episode..During the episode discussion countless members talked how they watched this ep over and over 5-10 times over (I was one of them, thanks to Shinn's impulsive actions)...

What Shinn is guilty of is nursing his irrational hatred of ORB, his blatent and repeated disregard for authority he doesn't like, his ridiculous grudge against the Freedom pilot for killing the rampaging Stellar, his refusal to let Lunamaria take any of the blame for Djibiril get away, his attempt to kill Lunamaria just to get at Athrun, etc. Being manipulated by Rey can only partially take away Shinn's fault in these incidents.

What Shinn is truley guilty of is being sidelined because of these flaws that make him a different character than many people would want to accept...A character with boiling hatred for the country that allowed his love-ones to die (Don't discount the impact of seeing your family die in the most brutal of ways does to you, it's not like seeing a MS or building explode) ...His warped veiw of protection and the motivations of why he protects those he cares about over even rational perceptions...His pursuit to be the best ( Rau's conclusion that will never go away) by beating an enemy suit (FREEDOM) to his military and country... Once again I say Lunamaria choosing EPISODE 50 OF ALL TIMES to realise what she should have realised in ep 38 deserves to die for jumping in front of Shinn while he in a mad-rage fighting to PROTECT HER...My only regret that she didn't get blown out of existence because she was feeble-minded character (almost worst than Steller in some ways)...Another regret is that because Shinn was tossed aside like an empty milk-carton, we'll never see what he could have been, which isn't what you want...

[Eagles]

taken from this thread.

Originally Posted by Paladinoras

Well, technically, in the Second Battle of ORB, Kira could have killed Shinn. He just didn't, being the saint that he is.

I don't see the point of taking 'could have' into account. Shinn fights against Kira knowing Kira won't kill, if Kira wasn't such a saint, then Shinn would fight differently. I also remember Kira catching Shinn's sword using his Gundam's hands and Shinn being forced to retreat because his battery was low (later acknowledged as a serious error). So considering how inconsistant CE can be, I'm going to say that unless Kira actually took Destiny out it was a tie.

And Shinn never beat Athrun, unless you consider a GOUF vs Destiny AND Legend fight fair. When Athrun finally get his mind straight and goes into SEED mode, he is untouchable. I always considered Athrun to be the best pilot in CE. Kira may have more skill, but Athrun doesn't necessarily always disable and can kill.

I never said it was a fair fight, but Shinn did beat Athrun. But then how many fair fights were there? Even when Athrun beat Shinn in the final battle, Shinn was halucinating visions of Mayu and Stella which caused him to go into some mindless rage rather than use his head like he did against Freedom.

And I agree that Athrun is probably the best, what with being undefeated in SEED mode and all. But I wouldn't say Kira is more skilled, I mean Kira just does the same tactics over and over. And as soon as anyone dodges he gets a look of shock on his face and finds himself troubled.

Well, Shinn is a good character at the start of GSD, but he just makes himself so easily hated at the later parts of GSD. I personally don't like him cause he just screams way too much and have freaky facial expressions at times.

I never minded Shinn's rage, its much better than Kira's emotionless nature in GSD, especially when Kira's throwing himself into a conflict like an idiot and shooting at anyone who won't listen to Cagalli.

But I admit that he is a good pilot and his piloting of Impulse was just amazing. But he is just too damn easily manipulated.

I don't really think Shinn was being manipulated that badly at all. He chose to fight for ZAFT because he thought it was the right thing to do. He followed orders like any other soldier, and fought against enemies of ZAFT.

Kira isn't any different, infact he's probably been manipulated more, what with Flay making him more aggressive and Lacus putting Freedom in hands, at which point he just goes on to fight for Lacus' ideals for the rest of his screentime.

Same can be said for Athrun who finds himself fighting for Lacus' ideals in the final quarter of both series.

[Eidolon Sniper]

From the thread Eagles posted/linked to.

Originally Posted by Neku

Plus, the emotional, barbaric Shinn who lost to both Kira and Athrun. What's so flawless or rewarding about him when she already has two Aces in your-so-called her personal army?

Um, I never get it why some people think Shinn is barbaric. Same choice of fighting style? Blame it on Fukuda. "One-dimensional" character? Blame it on Morosawa.

Seriously, Shinn was never barbaric about how he fights. Or how he is, in entirety.

• LOL Windam massacre. You DO realize that Athrun was helpless at that point in time (he was still confused), coupled with the fact that his other teammates have been seriously compromised and that the Minerva basically was open for attacks from the enemies swarming around them.
  
• Shinn sniping on Cagalli. He was pretty honest about what he feels and he tells it like it is. I mean, frank people also get their share of from people, but why is Shinn's frank attitude so shocking? He sees the Orb representative spouting nonsensical stuff about peace and war, but it was those nonsensical things that burned down the Orb he so trusted, and has killed his family right in front of his eyes. It was natural for him to be angry. He felt betrayed, and Cagalli saying those words as if she REALLY believes all those words she says and that it could stop a war from happening really made him explode like that. It was kinda weird for Cagalli to say those things because it was what led to her losing a lot in that war too, and ultimately, this was also what happened in later beginning to mid eps of Destiny.
  
• Shinn and his hatred of authority figures. He always had trouble keeping his temper down when speaking with people of higher authority doesn't he? It's not like Shinn outright hates authority figures, he really is just some kid who lost a lot (losing a family in the blink of an eye + he has to learn to live by himself which he has problems dealing with) and is trying to deal with it through going against authority figures. Maybe it's because of the trauma he had in Orb? Seriously though, even if he snipes at authority figures, he also gets reprimanded or warned on his behavior, and he also accepted his stupidity (for bringing Stellar back to the EA) like a man. His friends know the trauma he went through, as well as some of his superior officers, that is why they don't actually take on him or getting him Taliaslapped, because of course, emotional Shinn is, he might turn out worse. And Shinn doesn't emo on anyone randomly, he knows when to keep his emo in check.
  
• One trick pony. Destiny was built for speed. It's not like Shinn can't think of anything else. It was seriously built for speed, and it was sidelined because SF does not look cool in comparison, and by all means SF must be the cooler of the 2. This became more pronounced when Shinn seemed to have forgotten about the capability of his Destiny Gundam (WoL) and that his Gundam suddenly ran out of batteries (which, theoretically speaking, as it shares the same engine with SF, IJ and Legend, should NOT). Unlike Kira, Shinn's intent is to end the fight quickly and he doesn't let fancy ideals get in his way of disabling MS he encounters along the way. He always has to work as if he's on crack because most of the time he was always forced in situations wherein he is the only one the Minerva can count on (mainly because Athrun was so out of it for the most part) and that he has to act quickly and get the entire fight over with. He uses SEED to the surprise of Kira in ep 28, and used Impulse in ways one couldn't have imagined and I believe the idea for this was taken off from V Gundam (Usso using half his Gundam for fighting, etc.). SF uses the pretty rainbow spams more than Shinn uses his ASS Melee RAGE, or even equally to Shinn, but what's funny is that Kira never gets reprimanded for being the one trick pony that he is as much as Shinn does.

Originally Posted by Paladinoras

Well, Shinn is a good character at the start of GSD, but he just makes himself so easily hated at the later parts of GSD. I personally don't like him cause he just screams way too much and have freaky facial expressions at times.

Shinn never did anything wrong in my opinion, it's just that he has to make way for Kira mid series, and his show was hijacked from him. This is the only anime I have seen wherein it gets hijacked from the main character...except of course that this now applies to Naruto manga in the same sense. There really is no way that SF could be introduced into Destiny if the show was about Shinn, right? His devolution as a character from the mid eps to the end is the worst character "non-development" or whatever it was I have ever watched in an anime series.

[Neku]

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Um, I never get it why some people think Shinn is barbaric. Same choice of fighting style? Blame it on Fukuda. "One-dimensional" character? Blame it on Morosawa.

I feel the same.
I never get why people get so worked up just because of one mere opinion.

By the way, I'm still interested if you're gonna explain to me how flawless Shinn is next to Kira; I'll save you from talking about Athrun, otherwise it'd be off-topic.

Erm...you did say he was barbaric in this post. Which he isn't, really.

Yes, I did. But I never said he was useless or

a threat to the CF taking full charge of all positions of power in PLANTs and Earth.

Where did you get Shinn being barbaric?

..because I think he is?

Also, what were those paragraphs for? You can read my mind? You know why I think Shinn is barbaric? But apparently, you didn't hit.

Originally Posted by Eagles

Shinn also beat those two aces. Although in Athrun's case almost anyone would lose. But with Kira? Shinn lost to him once in the earlier episodes of GSD. And then in ep. 34 Shinn took out Freedom. After that the fights between Kira and Shinn ended in ties.

He managed to destroy Freedom because Kira was distracted. The Special Editions kept the scenes/emphasized that when Shinn was about to charge against Freedom, Kira was ready to engage with his attack. At the same time, Archangel was hit. Kira got distracted and by the time he looked back, he was too late. It was hardly a fair fight. Sure, you can put it that Shinn won. But towards the end, he lost. What do you think he was angry about when he said to Kira "If that was a beam attack, I would have already died. Is that what you're trying to say!?"?

Basically, in a fair fight. He lost. He could've died and he never won back.

[Eagles]

Originally Posted by Neku

He managed to destroy Freedom because Kira was distracted. The Special Editions kept the scenes/emphasized that when Shinn was about to charge against Freedom, Kira was ready to engage with his attack. At the same time, Archangel was hit. Kira got distracted and by the time he looked back, he was too late. It was hardly a fair fight. Sure, you can put it that Shinn won. But towards the end, he lost.

While it wasn't a completely fair fight, it's about as fair as you can get against Kira. Kira imposed every disadvantage onto himself. It's his own fault for falling into predictable fighting patterns. It's his own fault for flying backwards when his wings were damaged. It's his own fault for underestimating Shinn. Even if you want to argue that Kira may still be better than Shinn (which is a valid argument, although I'd disagree with it), the fact still stands that Shinn is capable of putting down Kira. And again, theres no loss I see, CE is way too inconsistent for me to take anything other than an actual loss as a loss.

What do you think he was angry about when he said to Kira "If that was a beam attack, I would have already died. Is that what you're trying to say!?"?

Basically, in a fair fight. He lost. He could've died and he never won back.

You're going to need to show me an official clip of this (aka not fansubbed). Plus I remember Shinn missing some of his weapons. And ofcourse theres the fact that the guy he had just killed had come back to life, so obviously hes not going to be in the best state of mind. So following your logic I'm going to say it wasn't a fair fight, because Shinn was made (more?) unstable and was generally just caught offguard by seeing Kira come back to life. Ontop of all this, it still stands that Shinn didn't lose and didn't die, Shinn would fight differently against someone who does go for MS kills.

[2H-Dragon]

I didn't read the whole thread, but isn't the point that Kira is god himself in the Gundam series. Shinn is just another emo kid. Sure Kira was emo too, but hey you tend forgive someone with God mode. =o That and shinn also failed since he was the main character and got outshined/outclassed by the old cast. Either way shinn loses.

[Demongod86]

Originally Posted by Eagles

You're going to need to show me an official clip of this (aka not fansubbed). Plus I remember Shinn missing some of his weapons. And ofcourse theres the fact that the guy he had just killed had come back to life, so obviously hes not going to be in the best state of mind. So following your logic I'm going to say it wasn't a fair fight, because Shinn was made (more?) unstable and was generally just caught offguard by seeing Kira come back to life. Ontop of all this, it still stands that Shinn didn't lose and didn't die, Shinn would fight differently against someone who does go for MS kills.

GSD ep 43 Shinn charges with his RAWR CHARGE attack, Kira tosses up Freedom's two guns, catches Shinn's overhead slash, and smashes the big sword with his railguns. He instead could have just fired off Freedom's body cannon right then and there and shot a hole right through the center of Destiny, with Shinn himself eating the beam.

As for GSD 34, Kira himself stressed that he wasn't remotely at his best in that fight. And while a lot of Shinn apologists called BS on that, Shinn from then on simply got trashed any time he saw Kira or Athrun.

Shinn vs. Kira in space, also, is just flat out unfair. If Kira stomped Shinn on earth, then Kira + dragoons = owned.

[Eagles]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

GSD ep 43 Shinn charges with his RAWR CHARGE attack, Kira tosses up Freedom's two guns, catches Shinn's overhead slash, and smashes the big sword with his railguns. He instead could have just fired off Freedom's body cannon right then and there and shot a hole right through the center of Destiny, with Shinn himself eating the beam.

lol I think you got the episode wrong, 42 is when Kira catches the sword (with no recoil I might add ), I was asking for a clip of the dub or bandai subs, because I don't feel like looking for them. But I don't care anymore, I noticed Shinn wasn't in SEED mode when that happened, while Kira was, something that has been shown to make a huge difference (just look at Athrun - undefeated in SEED mode, basically stands still and gets 'saviored' outside of it). Once Shinn gets into SEED mode he finds himself in a stale-mate shootout (missing most of his weapons IIRC) with Kira at which point he retreats because his battery is low (animation mistake).

As for GSD 34, Kira himself stressed that he wasn't remotely at his best in that fight. And while a lot of Shinn apologists called BS on that, Shinn from then on simply got trashed any time he saw Kira or Athrun.

Care to show me a clip of when Kira says this (official tranlations and all). And I don't remember seeing Shinn get trashed by Kira after 34 , I hope that sword catch isn't your basis for argument. Athrun however was able to cut off Shinn's arm in 43, however IIRC Destiny is still missing most of its weapons, and of course Athrun showing up from the dead probably didn't put Shinn in the best mental state for combat. In the final battle, Shinn starts halucinating visions of Mayu and Stella, again not the best condition to be fighting in. If Shinn were to fight using his head like he did against Freedom in 34, I have no doubt he would at least give Athrun a run for his money. Of course Shinn might still lose, Athrun's a very capable pilot, and since Shinn generally favors melee Athrun has the advantage since Infinite Justice is a melee oriented suit.

Shinn vs. Kira in space, also, is just flat out unfair. If Kira stomped Shinn on earth, then Kira + dragoons = owned.

I don't know how much difference the dragoons would make, considering Rau only managed to hit Kira once when Kira was docked with METEOR and out of SEED mode, until Kira decided to go in for the kill and basically forgot about his defence. If Kira can dodge mind-controlled dragoons, I would think Shinn can dodge AI-controlled dragoons, especially since the Destiny creates an afterimage (good game autotarget?).

[Derringer]

There are no mind controlled weapons in CE as of now. The difference between the DRAGOON pods on the Providence and later models was that the Providence required its user to have a fairly good understanding of an x,y,z plane that is constantly changing according to one's own position. This is the "heightened spacial awareness" requirement. Later models have upgraded software that deal with the calculations.

The point is, the user is still having to position the pods and fire him/herself with controls inside the cockpit. This is a different concept from the funnel/bits in other Gundam universes that react to the pilots brain waves and moved as if they were extensions of that person's body.

Keep in mind that the only sort of Newtype ability Kira had was when he somehow knew that Mwu was in that windam when it crashed.

[kk2extreme]

get kira infected with dg cells, not thats a god.

[Neku]

While it wasn't a completely fair fight, it's about as fair as you can get against Kira. Kira imposed every disadvantage onto himself. It's his own fault for falling into predictable fighting patterns. It's his own fault for flying backwards when his wings were damaged. It's his own fault for underestimating Shinn.

So you're trying to say that if Kira kills, Shinn would've been dead.

Even if you want to argue that Kira may still be better than Shinn (which is a valid argument, although I'd disagree with it), the fact still stands that Shinn is capable of putting down Kira. And again, theres no loss I see, CE is way too inconsistent for me to take anything other than an actual loss as a loss.

When did Shinn put down Kira when he reappeared again with Strike Freedom?

Actual loss or not, it's futile. The fact that you agreed that the fight in Phase 34 was an unfair one(with Kira being at fault) already means that there is no actual loss there too.

You're going to need to show me an official clip of this (aka not fansubbed).

So are you proclaiming that there might be errors with the translations?

Anyways, I'm not interested to find you a clip.
I only know that he did say that. If you want to disprove me, you're the one that's in the liberty show me that he did not say that.

Plus I remember Shinn missing some of his weapons. And ofcourse theres the fact that the guy he had just killed had come back to life, so obviously hes not going to be in the best state of mind. So following your logic I'm going to say it wasn't a fair fight, because Shinn was made (more?) unstable and was generally just caught offguard by seeing Kira come back to life. Ontop of all this, it still stands that Shinn didn't lose and didn't die, Shinn would fight differently against someone who does go for MS kills.

How unfair was it? Best state of mind? He was just frustrated that someone he thought was dead was alive. From what I see, he was just angry. Even when he destroyed Freedom, he was also angry. Your point? Unstable? Give me a break..

He didn't die, doesn't mean he didn't lose.
Fight differently? All he does is use his ASS and flung it everywhere where it hits. Oh yeah, and his boomerangs that always seem to only hit grunts.

...and he didn't even figured the strategy to beat Freedom by himself. Rey was the one who pointed it out to him and he trained himself with simulation battles.

You're making me laugh when you say that you'd disagree that Kira is better than Shinn. Back in SEED, did Kira ever had a chance to train in simulation battles to face Athrun, Yzak, Dearka and Nicol?

[Eagles]

Originally Posted by Neku

So you're trying to say that if Kira kills, Shinn would've been dead.

When have I said that? All I said is that Kira imposed every disadvantage onto himself. Although Kira may have been able to win if he was willing to kill, I have my doubts. Chances are higher if he would simply would use new tactics and not make obvious mistakes such as flying backwards with broken wings, which is a show of skill. And if I take your point of view and look at it as 'Kira is more skilled' then it comes down to the fact that Kira lost (yes lost, as in his Gundam blew up and by all he means he should have died) to an inferior pilot, which itself does not look to good for dear Kira.

When did Shinn put down Kira when he reappeared again with Strike Freedom?

The setting in Impulse vs. Freedom is not that extreme, Kira still doesn't go for MS kills, and he still uses the same tactics over and over. Hence why wouldn't Shinn be able to put Strike-Freedom down? It's not like Kira showed any more skill in SF than he did in Freedom.

Actual loss or not, it's futile. The fact that you agreed that the fight in Phase 34 was an unfair one(with Kira being at fault) already means that there is no actual loss there too.

Except Freedom went down, so it is an actual loss, fair fight or not.

So are you proclaiming that there might be errors with the translations?

Anyways, I'm not interested to find you a clip.
I only know that he did say that. If you want to disprove me, you're the one that's in the liberty show me that he did not say that.

If you're going to base an argument of something Shinn said, you might want to rethink your attitude there. Why should I have to to look for clips of something that you are trying to prove? But anyway, I've already said I don't need the clips anymore a few posts up. Shinn wasn't in SEED mode when that happened, the battle wasn't fair by your definition.

How unfair was it? Best state of mind? He was just frustrated that someone he thought was dead was alive. From what I see, he was just angry. Even when he destroyed Freedom, he was also angry. Your point? Unstable? Give me a break..

Fighting Freedom he used his head. He threw his shield and reflected a beam of it to hit Freedom's wings. He used his old parts in a creative way. Whereas in the battle of ORB and the final battle he simply charges in without any sort of tactic. I should also point out that he was fighting Kira to a standstill in this state of mind, because yes, I don't count Kira gaining an advantage when he's in SEED mode and Shinn isn't as a fair fight. Athrun on the otherhand is clearly able to win against Shinn when Shinn just charges in without using his head.

He didn't die, doesn't mean he didn't lose.
Fight differently? All he does is use his ASS and flung it everywhere where it hits. Oh yeah, and his boomerangs that always seem to only hit grunts.

Episode 34 of GSD has Shinn doing more than just taking out grunts. Not to mention he takes out grunts in a much more spectacular fashion than Kira ever did. I can make similar statements about Kira. Kira - all he ever does is fly around auto-target beam-spamming and luckily for him grunts in CE never seem to move (and quite often named pilots won't either when fighting Kira).

...and he didn't even figured the strategy to beat Freedom by himself. Rey was the one who pointed it out to him and he trained himself with simulation battles.

Rey told Shinn that Kira doesn't aim for cockpits. Shinn was the one that came up with creative tactics.

You're making me laugh when you say that you'd disagree that Kira is better than Shinn. Back in SEED, did Kira ever had a chance to train in simulation battles to face Athrun, Yzak, Dearka and Nicol?

Did Kira actually fight those four all at the same time? He always had some backup, Mwu, the AA and later Tolle. Theres also the fact that only Athrun was a threat to post SEED mode Kira. Nicol? He never did anything even close to impressive, infact I remember him running into Kira's beam sword. Dearka? Great character, but never does anything impressive as a pilot, the only thing I remember him doing vs. the AA was somestimes tie up Mwu. Yzak? As soon as Kira got his SEED mode Yzak fought like garbage against Kira. Infact look how easily Kira took out Yzak the first time he used Freedom. Plus I don't know how useful simulations would be to Kira, I don't remember the four ZAFT pilots falling into repetitive fighting patterns like Kira did.

So have any proof other than Shinn's encouter with Kira while not in SEED mode?

[4Tran]

So are you proclaiming that there might be errors with the translations?

Anyways, I'm not interested to find you a clip.
I only know that he did say that. If you want to disprove me, you're the one that's in the liberty show me that he did not say that.

Originally Posted by Eagles

If you're going to base an argument of something Shinn said, you might want to rethink your attitude there. Why should I have to to look for clips of something that you are trying to prove? But anyway, I've already said I don't need the clips anymore a few posts up. Shinn wasn't in SEED mode when that happened, the battle wasn't fair by your definition.

In this situation, the burden of proof lies on the person trying to claim that the translation was inaccurate. In any case, I don't see how it'd make a difference since it's sort of obvious that if Kira had used his big gun, Shinn would have been toast.

As to the unfairness of Kira's situation when Freedom got impaled, or any unfairness in combat for that matter, I'm not sure how it'd matter. Combat is all about putting your enemy in as unfair a position as possible, so that'd be the optimum tactic in just about any circumstance.

[Eidolon Sniper]

Combat in war has never been about playing fair. But, to some degree, it had to be fair, or else the other side would never have a chance of winning at all. If they were to even the odds out to a degree, or use their own strengths to compensate their weaknesses, that should always be the point. It's going to be the turning point of that war, whether for good or for worse to either side. If it was to be unfair like giving Kira "super skills" with regards to how he treated Shinn and the rest of the "villains" in Destiny, then it's another matter entirely.

[kk2extreme]

give shin some dg cells, he would undoubtly pwns kira hands down, (making his emo side a lot more emoish )

[PzIVf3]

Shinn made the right choice to join Zaft to make revenge against the enemy that invade and killed his parents there's no way he will join Orb with there sugarcoated words and posturing words that's why his angry attitude at Cagalli words were a disillusioned, false belief, distrust.

[Neku]

Originally Posted by Eagles

When have I said that? All I said is that Kira imposed every disadvantage onto himself. Although Kira may have been able to win if he was willing to kill, I have my doubts.Chances are higher if he would simply would use new tactics and not make obvious mistakes such as flying backwards with broken wings, which is a show of skill. And if I take your point of view and look at it as 'Kira is more skilled' then it comes down to the fact that Kira lost (yes lost, as in his Gundam blew up and by all he means he should have died) to an inferior pilot, which itself does not look to good for dear Kira

I guess I misinterpreted what you said.
By the way, I don't have doubts if Kira didn't have any handicaps, because Shinn could've died in Phase 34 as well.

When he magically thrusted Kira with his ASS, Kira could've thrusted/slashed his beam saber through Impulse's cockpit/body. But, he still chose to thrust it through its head. Yep. Kira lost. But only because he still chose not to kill even though he was on the verge of death.

Impose of disadvantage or not, I don't care. I can accept that he lost. But if you were to say he lost to Shinn fairly, then it's debatable.

The setting in Impulse vs. Freedom is not that extreme, Kira still doesn't go for MS kills, and he still uses the same tactics over and over. Hence why wouldn't Shinn be able to put Strike-Freedom down? It's not like Kira showed any more skill in SF than he did in Freedom.

So when?

Except Freedom went down, so it is an actual loss, fair fight or not.

If you put it this way, I can concede.

If you're going to base an argument of something Shinn said, you might want to rethink your attitude there. Why should I have to to look for clips of something that you are trying to prove? But anyway, I've already said I don't need the clips anymore a few posts up. Shinn wasn't in SEED mode when that happened, the battle wasn't fair by your definition.

Thanks, 4Tran.

Fighting Freedom he used his head. He threw his shield and reflected a beam of it to hit Freedom's wings. He used his old parts in a creative way. Whereas in the battle of ORB and the final battle he simply charges in without any sort of tactic. I should also point out that he was fighting Kira to a standstill in this state of mind, because yes, I don't count Kira gaining an advantage when he's in SEED mode and Shinn isn't as a fair fight. Athrun on the otherhand is clearly able to win against Shinn when Shinn just charges in without using his head.

So when Kira has the advantage, it isn't a fair fight. But when Shinn imposed the disadvantages to himself, it is a fair fight.

With your first statement, it's like you're saying without preparations, Shinn cannot take on Kira in Strike Freedom. Yet you're still labeling him to be more skilful than Kira. Oh, the irony.

Episode 34 of GSD has Shinn doing more than just taking out grunts. Not to mention he takes out grunts in a much more spectacular fashion than Kira ever did. I can make similar statements about Kira. Kira - all he ever does is fly around auto-target beam-spamming and luckily for him grunts in CE never seem to move (and quite often named pilots won't either when fighting Kira).

How is that relevant?
If you want to compare Shinn in Impulse with Kira, you'll have to compare him with Kira in Strike, not Kira in Freedom.

Rey told Shinn that Kira doesn't aim for cockpits. Shinn was the one that came up with creative tactics.

Shinn still didn't figure that out by himself. The main point is Kira doesn't aim for the cockpit, but only disarms. The main point was pointed out by Rey. If Shinn still couldn't get it, then he's stupid.

Did Kira actually fight those four all at the same time? He always had some backup, Mwu, the AA and later Tolle. Theres also the fact that only Athrun was a threat to post SEED mode Kira. Nicol? He never did anything even close to impressive, infact I remember him running into Kira's beam sword. Dearka? Great character, but never does anything impressive as a pilot, the only thing I remember him doing vs. the AA was somestimes tie up Mwu. Yzak? As soon as Kira got his SEED mode Yzak fought like garbage against Kira. Infact look how easily Kira took out Yzak the first time he used Freedom. Plus I don't know how useful simulations would be to Kira, I don't remember the four ZAFT pilots falling into repetitive fighting patterns like Kira did.

Did Shinn fight any more than one Gundams at the same time too?
You're saying as though Shinn didn't have backup: Rey, Lunamaria, the ability to recharge battery asap, the ability to replace parts as soon as it's destroyed. You don't have to make a comeback saying Strike could too. Yes, Strike could, but only with the aid of the SkyGrasper and it doesn't replace parts as fast as Impulse could.

Also, I could say the same for Shinn. When Shinn got into his SEED mode, the mobile suits were like cannon/ASS fodder.

So have any proof other than Shinn's encouter with Kira while not in SEED mode?

No.. and?

[Paladinoras]

In space, Kira pawned Shinn as well. Anyone here who have watched final plus episode would have seen that Shinn could not even pose a threat to Kira when he uses his DRAGOONs. Again, he was being too much of a saint, so instead of using his DRAGOONs to tear Destiny to pieces, he aimed forward, which is blockable by Destiny's shields. Plus, in that battle, you cannot say that Shinn had a disadvantage because of his mental state, blah, blah, blah, cause he already knows that Kira and Athrun have survived and ready to fight him.

[Rey Za Burrel]

I dun see any points in discussing about someone that has been blessed to become an ultimate god like Jesus Yamato vs a normal being like Shinn
Win or lose , I dont need to know that
Capable of using tactics or not , I dun really sure
Mental state unstable or sth like that....etc , not really care
All I can say is that Kira's fighting abilities is >> than Shinn's ( the way how he treated his enemies was enough for me to see that clearly ) , and that what's the director wanted , they made Kira to become that strong so he cannot lose to anyone in fighting abilites ( correct me if I m wrong )

P.S : all I said was about fighting abilites and only fighting abilites , not tactics or leadership or anything else