[Manga] Naruto Chapter 621 Discussion Thread

[DoubtGin]

a flashback IN my flashback?!

[mrShady]

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

These type of overpowered DBZ level fights don't really work in the manga and can really only be appreciated in the anime. It is just hard to follow the action. I am actually glad it is over.


Kishi has been in fanservice mode for a while.

Betting anything Mito becomes important in the next chapter. You got the goofy guy with the heart of gold and the genius. Time for the girl they both like.

He should finish it up with Sakura being a distant relative of Mito
Minato a distant senju offspring (possible illegitimate gran kid of Tobirama)
And Sasuke the great grandson of Madara's brother (izuna?) and we're all set.

[felix]

I don't mind the retcons, it be more of a drama series otherwise.

[ranchan13]

It's just what I always wanted in my manga!!!!
A flashback in my flashback!
How did you know Kishi???

/sarcasm

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime

i dont really understand retconning...
did the author of DBZ retcon Goku because he wasn't originally introduced as a super saiyan?
hashirama wasnt brought back at his full strength the first time...

IIRC Dragon Ball made some retconning too. I remember when Vegeta first came to earth fighting Goku and got hit by Goku’s kameha-meha, Vegeta said along the lines of “This can’t be happening! I’m number one in the entire universe!” as he was supposed to be during that arc. Yet, after Vegeta’s defeat as we begin to enter Freeza arc, Vegeta was made (read: retconned) into an underling of Freeza’s army all this time (even before Vegeta came to earth). Not to mention that Toriyama also retconned the origin of Piccolo/Kami from a mythical being into an alien from planet Namek when he began to introduce Freeza arc.

I think it's always like that for many long-running fantasy shounen manga/anime. Believe me, the retconning in Naruto manga is not as bad as retconning in Saint Seiya anime.

[mystogan]

finally the Hashirama vs Madara getting progressed, the chapter was nice and i wasn't expecting for any other relation between the two, but i liked the kid versions of both.
it just reminded me of Tsunade when the markings on Hashirama's face appeared, now they really look related with a technique of markings appearing on the body,
the Kurama in Susano armor was good, but din't like the thousand hands, it looked too much big and even though it might be a thousand times powerful of a technique but din't look cool at all

[Dengar]

Retconning doesn't always mean plot hole though.

So far him having Senjutsu does not conflict with the facts.

[2Fast]

This 1000 hand Budha seems very familiar. Remember the episode when Hidan & Kakuza were targetting that monk guy from the fire temple, beause there was a price on it's head? He summoned a spirit version of this Budha thing.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

IIRC Dragon Ball made some retconning too. I remember when Vegeta first came to earth fighting Goku and got hit by Goku’s kameha-meha, Vegeta said along the lines of “This can’t be happening! I’m number one in the entire universe!” as he was supposed to be during that arc. Yet, after Vegeta’s defeat as we begin to enter Freeza arc, Vegeta was made (read: retconned) into an underling of Freeza’s army all this time (even before Vegeta came to earth). Not to mention that Toriyama also retconned the origin of Piccolo/Kami from a mythical being into an alien from planet Namek when he began to introduce Freeza arc.

I'd only really count the Piccolo/Kami thing as a retcon. You can attribute Vegeta's thing to arrogance, and even if not, changing something like 10 chapters later isn't that big of a deal. 300 chapters, yes; 10, no.

But it's not like this is the first retcon in Naruto. Danzou, anyone?

[Kowai]

So it's likely that hashirama was the first "ninja" to enter sage mode...
Juugo who is an uzumaki is heavily connected with sage mode.
I am interested to see where the senju and uzumaki intersect and that is prob going to be a flashback to the whirlpool village. Did Oro help crush it? How did he get juugo?

I would t consider hashi having sage mode to be an asspull since he "has the body of the sage"

I think Kishi f*cked up by having 3 clans involved in this, it would be fine to have just the 2 senju an uhichiha, but that wouldn't make sasuke and naruto destined rivals.. Adding the hyuuga would be more satisfying for me, like hyuuga is a branch/offshoot of uchiha and uzumaki is a branch/offshoot of senju.

[Artimus_Prime]

thanks every time i hear retcon i feel like its being touted as something negative, like the writer is moving the story along week by week without the complete story in mind…
i mean chapter one, a great ninja seals the nine tails in a newborn baby. 500 chapters later, it was his son!!! did kishi not originally ntend for them to be related? is that a retcon?

Originally Posted by mrShady

He was never said to be the strongest Hokage nor did anyone ever mention him as something god like (only his wood powers and him dividing the bijuus was mentioned). Yet here we are with these land changing jutsus that are completely dwarfing pain's destruction of Konoha. So yes it's retconning to the extreme.
I like the action, but it's just weird how powerful these 2 are.

i just feel like everything doesn't have to be said… sure his power wasn't mentioned but that doesn't mean the author didn't originally intend for him to be as powerful as he is…the manga is only like what 10 pages lol

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

hashirama's strength is a retcon and so is/will be the injection of the senju clan. it's a retcon since it alters what we know of the past. namely that hashirama wasn't that strong when orochimaru ET'd him. retcons aren't bad necessarily, they just shed new light on what has already been shown to us in the past. itachi's good nature was also a retcon, but it works out pretty well considering how many chapters had already passed in the manga. the senju stuff though, is a bit much and doesn't entirely make sense. i think kishi did write himself into a hole with that one. he never should have made hashirama the only senju to use mokuton and have that lifeforce. it's fine if he was the best, but he shouldn't have been the only. and his power is too overwhelming. the story began with each generation surpassing their elders. this is the exact opposite. and we still need a retcon explanation for what happened to the senju

right. because everything can't be explained to us right then and there. we are left to our imagination until the appropriate time to inject such things comes around…at least thats how i see it

Originally Posted by GDB

I'd only really count the Piccolo/Kami thing as a retcon. You can attribute Vegeta's thing to arrogance, and even if not, changing something like 10 chapters later isn't that big of a deal. 300 chapters, yes; 10, no.

But it's not like this is the first retcon in Naruto. Danzou, anyone?

i think you can reveal something 300 chapters later if the story is appropriately written

Originally Posted by Kowai

So it's likely that hashirama was the first "ninja" to enter sage mode...
Juugo who is an uzumaki is heavily connected with sage mode.
I am interested to see where the senju and uzumaki intersect and that is prob going to be a flashback to the whirlpool village. Did Oro help crush it? How did he get juugo?

I would t consider hashi having sage mode to be an asspull since he "has the body of the sage"

I think Kishi f*cked up by having 3 clans involved in this, it would be fine to have just the 2 senju an uhichiha, but that wouldn't make sasuke and naruto destined rivals.. Adding the hyuuga would be more satisfying for me, like hyuuga is a branch/offshoot of uchiha and uzumaki is a branch/offshoot of senju.

juugo not an uzumaki

@the poster mentioning Mito. she definitely will have a role. it has already been revealed that she sealed the nine tails in herself. it would be funny if madara was in love with her…he did give his eyes to an uzumaki…

Originally Posted by Dengar

Retconning doesn't always mean plot hole though.

So far him having Senjutsu does not conflict with the facts.

this

[Poetic Justice]

Was it ever stated during part 1 that Orochimaru brought back 1st and 2nd at full strength?

[Artimus_Prime]

Originally Posted by Poetic Justice

Was it ever stated during part 1 that Orochimaru brought back 1st and 2nd at full strength?

no but apparently it should have been in order for his strength to be believable...i dont know half the captain bankais in bleach, but when we finally learn what they are, will that be a retcon? (not trying to discuss bleach, just wanted an example)

[mrShady]

Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime

thanks every time i hear retcon i feel like its being touted as something negative, like the writer is moving the story along week by week without the complete story in mind…
i mean chapter one, a great ninja seals the nine tails in a newborn baby. 500 chapters later, it was his son!!! did kishi not originally ntend for them to be related? is that a retcon?

i just feel like everything doesn't have to be said… sure his power wasn't mentioned but that doesn't mean the author didn't originally intend for him to be as powerful as he is…the manga is only like what 10 pages lol

right. because everything can't be explained to us right then and there. we are left to our imagination until the appropriate time to inject such things comes around…at least thats how i see it



i think you can reveal something 300 chapters later if the story is appropriately written

juugo not an uzumaki

@the poster mentioning Mito. she definitely will have a role. it has already been revealed that she sealed the nine tails in herself. it would be funny if madara was in love with her…he did give his eyes to an uzumaki…



this

Retcon: Adding or altering information regarding the back story of a fictional character or world, regardless of whether the change contradicts what was said before.

So has this happened?
Yes. So I don't know why you are being so defensive, I just made an observation and then stated my opinion by calling it a plot hole introducing change. I don't care if you don't agree with me. However you shouldn't make false accusations claiming that everybody here is misusing the term retcon just because you don't consider it a bad story development.

[Artimus_Prime]

Originally Posted by mrShady

Retcon: Adding or altering information regarding the back story of a fictional character or world, regardless of whether the change contradicts what was said before.

So has this happened?
Yes. So I don't know why you are being so defensive, I just made an observation and then stated my opinion by calling it a plot hole introducing change. I don't care if you don't agree with me. However you shouldn't make false accusations claiming that everybody here is misusing the term retcon just because you don't consider it a bad story development.

i do thank you for that definition. i prolly shouldve just looked it up from the beginning..
im not defensive, just not in line with your opinion i.e. i dont think hashiramas strength is a plot hole...

its not about caring...we are sharing opinions are we not?

and i didnt make an accusation (intentionally that is)...simply stated that it feels like the use of word retcon surfaces only to suggest a contradiction has been made. but since reading the definition you provided, my stance is now moot...retconning happens. in this instance i jsut feel like hashirama didnt have to go in to sage mode the first time he was onscreen in order for the appearance now to be believable

[GusGus]

At this rate, this year will end before Naruto's fight.

Retconning or not, it's clear that the power ups has gone too damn far in this manga, and now they're just painful to watch. I suppose that the first edo Hashirama had like the 1% of his true power

[mrShady]

Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime

i do thank you for that definition. i prolly shouldve just looked it up from the beginning..
im not defensive, just not in line with your opinion i.e. i dont think hashiramas strength is a plot hole...

its not about caring...we are sharing opinions are we not?

and i didnt make an accusation (intentionally that is)...simply stated that it feels like the use of word retcon surfaces only to suggest a contradiction has been made. but since reading the definition you provided, my stance is now moot...retconning happens. in this instance i jsut feel like hashirama didnt have to go in to sage mode the first time he was onscreen in order for the appearance now to be believable

I understand I just get a little annoyed if people disagree with a fact. So let's stop the arguments over this small misunderstanding. No hard feelings. And keep the discussion focused on our opinions.

Originally Posted by GusGus

At this rate, this year will end before Naruto's fight.

Retconning or not, it's clear that the power ups has gone too damn far in this manga, and now they're just painful to watch. I suppose that the first edo Hashirama had like the 1% of his true power

I agree, though there's nothing we can do about it, it's just a shame it detracts from the overall story.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime

i think you can reveal something 300 chapters later if the story is appropriately written

Reveal, yes. Completely change, no. Using DBZ as an example, Goku being a Saiyan is a reveal. Piccolo being Namekian instead of a Demon, however, is a change/retcon. Using Naruto, Danzou is a retcon, since if he were as much of a Warhawk who valued the safety of the village above all else as they said, he wouldn't have ignored Orochimaru's attack, not would he have just sat back while they picked a new Hokage without him being in the mix.

[Owlman]

The third Hokage was said to be the strongest ever, and now its retconned as the first. Considering we haven't seen much from either of them, Hashirama being the strongest shinobi doesn't damage any elements of the story that I can think of, so whats the problem? I don't see the big deal here, I mean wasn't he a legendary Hokage anyway? I wonder if it was the fourth Hokage who was retconned as the strongest ever, would we be getting all these complaints?

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

If it’s true then I wonder from what animal he learned it from. From Katsuyu’s slug tribe? Or maybe he learned it by himself?

Kabuto mentioned that there are 3 legendary places to learn sage mode, we already know about 2, so maybe the 3rd is where Hashirama learned it. Or he has that naturally, since he inherited the body of the Sage of 6 paths. We already know that Juugo has some kind of degenerate sage mode simply as an ability, so it's possible to have it without going to magical places and do extreme training.

It seems that the Hashirama-Madara rivalry relationship is the opposite of the Naruto-Sasuke one: Hashirama being the genius type and Madara being annoyed by that

Originally Posted by owlman

The third Hokage was said to be the strongest ever, and now its retconned as the first.

I remember somewhere it was also said that the 4th hokage was the greates ever, it's just the usual hype when one person comes in the spotlight. But indeed there is some retconning going on, since when the 1st and 2nd fought the 3rd there was never mentioned that the 1st was severely weakened. At least the 3rd hokage should have mentioned it, but of course in these type of shonen manga when an epic fight has to be hyped up it's not really a good idea to expect remarks which say that the fighting guys aren't really that strong. So considering how good an explanation was given in this chapter i'm ok with how the story goes. And the explanation even involves the fact that a full powered Hashirama can easily break the Edo-Tensei binding of a powered up Orochimaru.

And most importantly now we know why was Madara bragging to the 5 kages that their fight was nowhere near the one that he had against Hashirama. And because of that it's becoming obvious that even if the completely exhausted alliance manages to win against Obito it will only lead to the fight against Madara which they cannot win. Madara's only concern is how to make Obito sacrifice himself to revive him, so i guess he doesn't really want to help Obito, rather he would like Obito to lose and then tell him that he can execute the plan if Obito revives him.