[Manga] Chapter 515 Discussion

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

And you honestly see no problem with that?

Not really, no. That's just the way these stories are told. Every Shounen series eventually reaches the point where the fights seem almost unbelievable. It's whether the fights are still enjoyable that really matter, not whether they are believable or not...

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Yeah, because ninjas and wizards are SO totally the same thing.

To Kishimoto they are the same thing. Honestly, has Naruto every done anything that could be described as ninja-esque? And even going beyond the titular character, how many of the characters actually act like ninjas? There are certainly characters that can, on occasion, be sneaky, but actual ninjas...4? 5?

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

I don't care what kind of rules a fantasy world sets up. Characters can get their power from chakra, ki, magic fruits or magic toenails for all I care. What pisses me off is when the author starts contradicting the rules he/she has set up without any sort of explanation.

What's been contradicted here? So far in the series, the Perfect Izanagi is the only technique that goes against all known rules, and since the technique is literally described as being godly, that only makes sense. Everything else falls within the realm of possibilities (even understandability) within the series' conventions and explanation.

Personally, I think you are confusing a lack of an explanation with contradiction once again...

[Ashaman]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

-

Got no problem with older Naruto pulling off larger summons (what was that? B-rank? A-rank?). What I do have a problem with are extremely powerful S-rank jutsus, which were established to be quite taxing even for the most experienced ninjas, being pulled off with seemingly no consequences whatsoever.

Those examples are all from part one. You know, when Naruto was good, and the energy and power balance was relatively fair. Also, those examples were used by relatively powerful ninja, and Naruto when he was tapping into the Kyuubi's power.

I don't care what kind of rules a fantasy world sets up. Characters can get their power from chakra, ki, magic fruits or magic toenails for all I care. What pisses me off is when the author starts contradicting the rules he/she has set up without any sort of explanation.

That is literally one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. When your tank is running on empty it doesn't just magically fill up with gas just because you want it to. A ninja using a high-level jutsu when they're low on chakra makes no sense and is a total contradiction to the rules.

So far, within characters, its been fairly consistent.

You're over looking control. Different characters have different levels of control, so what is very taxing for one person is not neccessarily taxing for another.

What happens when a ninja tries to use a Jutsu when they don't have the energy for it is actually addressed pretty early on, when Sasuke first used the chidori.

Go past you're limits, and the most likely outcome is your death. If you're lucky, the Jutsu will still work though.

So far, I've only seen this situation pop up three or four times.

Sasuke vs Gaara: Cursed Seal prevented him from dying

Naruto: Jinchuuriki, so has reserves.

Kakashi vs Pain: He died there.

From what I can tell, you're main complaint is Edo Tensei, right?

Here is something you keep over looking. I know both me and Hunter have said this before, and possibly a few others too - Edo Tensei requires a human sacrifice!

One life to bring back another (as a Zombie) Dude, This is Equivilent Exchange in action!

Those last three pages alone indicates the death of over 20 people.

How much chakra it takes to control and/or maintain the zombie? Dunno.

But I imagine someone who claims to have mastered the technique to a greater degree than both Orochimaru and its very own creator has managed to migate the cost to the user. Most likely by a lot. The best bet here is to wait and see until we can get an actual read of how much it costs before you got into rant mode.

Apart from Edo Tensei, there haven't really been any other S rank moves recently. Especially ones with no cost to the user. Nagato died. Rasenshuriken has a limit use of about two without a recharge(with the chakra beast known as Naruto I might add), Sasunoo has recently eaten Sasuke's ability to see, the Zetsu clones seem to have been a long term thing - with Bjuu batteries,

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by james0246

Not really, no. That's just the way these stories are told. Every Shounen series eventually reaches the point where the fights seem almost unbelievable. It's whether the fights are still enjoyable that really matter, not whether they are believable or not...

So you're telling me it's perfectly all right for Kishi to act on a whim and have the characters do whatever is convenient for the plot, even if it makes no sense inside or outside the stories universe? Wow.

To Kishimoto they are the same thing. Honestly, has Naruto every done anything that could be described as ninja-esque? And even going beyond the titular character, how many of the characters actually act like ninjas? There are certainly characters that can, on occasion, be sneaky, but actual ninjas...4? 5?

So you're agreeing with me? It's pretty much an insult to real ninjas to call anyone in the Naruto world a ninja. Oh, and also, source for Kishi wanting to make a wizard series or it didn't happen.

What's been contradicted here? So far in the series, the Perfect Izanagi is the only technique that goes against all known rules, and since the technique is literally described as being godly, that only makes sense. Everything else falls within the realm of possibilities (even understandability) within the series' conventions and explanation.

The prime example of this is the wrap-up of Deidara vs. Sasuke. How in the fuck could an extremely-low-on-chakra Sasuke summon Manda, one of the three grand summons, hypnotize him with his Sharingan, hide inside his body and then, I think, transport away all while an explosion is occuring? This move is so unbelievably stupid that it not only contradicts the laws of chakra, but also the laws of physics (heck, even cartoon physics).

Personally, I think you are confusing a lack of an explanation with contradiction once again...

Neither are desirable. Well, lack of explanation is okay in some cases, but you can't have characters doing things for no reason or, heck, even doing things that make no sense.

[Ashaman]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

So you're agreeing with me? It's pretty much an insult to real ninjas to call anyone in the Naruto world a ninja. Oh, and also, source for Kishi wanting to make a wizard series or it didn't happen.

The prime example of this is the wrap-up of Deidara vs. Sasuke. How in the fuck could an extremely-low-on-chakra Sasuke summon Manda, one of the three grand summons, hypnotize him with his Sharingan, hide inside his body and then, I think, transport away all while an explosion is occuring? This move is so unbelievably stupid that it not only contradicts the laws of chakra, but also the laws of physics (heck, even cartoon physics).

Yeah, not much ninja'ing going on here. I always lol whenever I realise Naruto is one of the most ninjay fighters. Winning through trickery and surprise more often than not.

Yeah, the Sasuke vs. Deidara end was a bit messed up.

But one thing most people forget is that, from an inuniverse point of view, it was a planned escape. Karin was clearly told to do such and such to summon Manda, implying that Sasuke had done the neccessary preparations to use Manda at a split second to escape if needed.

What good is an escape if it needs a tonne of chakra? No good. Therefore, most likely, Sasuke had made preparations to summon without high chakra consumption.

Not a great argument, but it explains alot.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

So you're telling me it's perfectly all right for Kishi to act on a whim and have the characters do whatever is convenient for the plot, even if it makes no sense inside or outside the stories universe? Wow.

That is absolutely not what I said at all, and how you arrived at such a conclusion is baffling. Nothing I said had anything to do with character development or story advancement. Instead, I said, to put it more simplistically, worrying about the ever advancing power level/abilities in comparison with previous abilities/powers is pointless (which is what you are doing). And to single out Naruto, even though nearly every Shounen series does the same thing, makes little to no sense (if you want to condemn them all, then go for, just don't pick and choose).

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

The prime example of this is the wrap-up of Deidara vs. Sasuke. How in the fuck could an extremely-low-on-chakra Sasuke summon Manda, one of the three grand summons, hypnotize him with his Sharingan, hide inside his body and then, I think, transport away all while an explosion is occuring? This move is so unbelievably stupid that it not only contradicts the laws of chakra, but also the laws of physics (heck, even cartoon physics).

Why are you so worried about an event that took place 150 chapters ago ? Especially considering nothing going on currently is comparable to what you described.

Besides, since the beginning of the series (way back during the Kakashi v. Zabuza fight), the characters have always pulled out large techniques at the drop of a hat, even if they are already exhausted. And what happens the majority of the time afterward? They collapse from exhaustion (Sasuke did it in this battle). Nothing was "broken" and nothing was "contradicted" (though I acknowledge how the fight borders on being unbelievable, I do not see how that in any way makes the event in question contradictory to the story being told (or the in universe power system (which also allows scrolls to be used to summon...which Suigetsu did after the fight, so why couldn't Sasuke do the same thing?)) or the characters being shown).

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Neither are desirable. Well, lack of explanation is okay in some cases, but you can't have characters doing things for no reason or, heck, even doing things that make no sense.

"Lack of explanation" only matters if the author provides none later on. Right now, Edo Tensei annoys many people because there is no sufficient explanation as to how it is performed or how it truly works. But, you, and many others, confuse a current lack of explanation with an actual contradiction or, to use the buzz word, deus ex machina.

[Slave0fLife]

Just to comment on one thing regarding the end of Deidara fight, didn't Sasuke appear to be tired because of his chidori-on-himself move to save himself from the bombs? Nothing he did in that battle seemed to require lots of chakra, if I remember correctly - at least at that point in the story it wasn't a relevant amount. I understood that he chidori-d himself, and was physically beat up because of that - but his chakra level was ok.

[Ashaman]

true enough, but Deidara at least seemed to think Sasuke was exhuasted.

Most people take Deidara's word for it.

Also, nothing he did(apart from snakey) seemed to use loads of chakra, but lots of mid-chakra techs will tire someone out too. And that is what Sasuke had done

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

And you honestly see no problem with that?

No I don't. I don't read Shounen for realism but for entertainment. A little consistency is required to hold a suspending of disbelief but since nothing particulary out of top happened when you compare it to the rest of the story, I dont have a problem with that.
Now you may dislike this turn of event and think that making zombies out of past characters is cheap, ridiculous and whatnot and I would understand that. But crying about it because it's supposed to break some rule you made up on your own? No.

Those examples are all from part one. You know, when Naruto was good, and the energy and power balance was relatively fair. Also, those examples were used by relatively powerful ninja, and Naruto when he was tapping into the Kyuubi's power.

Of course they are all from part one since that was my point in the first place. This world is such since the very beginning and all those feats back then were done by ninja considerably weaker than those we are witnesssing right now -even without taking into account power inflation which is to be expected after more than a decade of storyline.

Yeah, because ninjas and wizards are SO totally the same thing.

In this story? Yes they are.
Or are you actually saying Naruto's characters have ever acted and fought like regular ninja? And if not then why are you acting all surprised about it 515 chapters later?

I don't care what kind of rules a fantasy world sets up. Characters can get their power from chakra, ki, magic fruits or magic toenails for all I care. What pisses me off is when the author starts contradicting the rules he/she has set up without any sort of explanation.

And again, what rules? You have offered no example that is supposed to break a so called yet never mentioned rule except stating Edo Tensei was free because you had forgotten that it required to sacrifice an human being.
Ah yes and the Sasuke vs. Deidara fight because something so completely irrelevent to the current events that happened more than 150 chapters ago apparently still drive you mad. But really even this event didn't break any so called rule despite the fact it was indeed very badly presented.

[7thFonon]

You guys are trying to make sense of Naruto fights?? Most Naruto fights have never made any sense at all.... Logic / common sense can't really be applied to them.

I'll summarize some battles.... Just an example of how much sense Naruto fights make :



Taking it back as far as Naruto+Sasuke vs Haku. What kind of idiot would throw "thousands" of needles at his opponents' arms and legs instead of just throwing "one" to the Head and ending it all?? And during battle Haku states that his technique drains a lot of chakra.... so what does he do? He decides to sit in his ice mirror and chat while he wastes energy on his chakra-heavy technique. Genius.

Haku vs Kyuubi Naruto.... Haku realizes he's in danger, so he throws about 20 needles into Naruto's back. The attack doesn't even affect Naruto. Why even bother throwing them in his back?? Then Haku decides to aim for Naruto's back "again".... but this time with 1 needle (because I guess 20 is less effective than 1....). Not to mention Haku randomly decides to leave his mirror completely for this single needle attack, allowing Naruto to dodge and grab his arm.




Sasuke vs Deidara..... So Sasuke and Deidara look pretty tired at the end of their battle. Now... If Deidara has enough Chakra to make an explosion that is like 10 Kilometers in diameter, why not just make another Clay Dragon/Bird?? The bird could easily pick Deidara up (who can barely move at this moment) so he could continue the fight from the air. As tired as Deidara was, there's no excuse for not coming up with another option when he had that much energy left to make a 10 kilometer explosion.


I like Naruto, but I gave up trying to actually make sense of the fights.

[Frenchie]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

-Chakra is an energy source that's been around pretty much since day one. It was well established that ninjas are only able to perform ninjutsu and genjutsu by tapping into and using their chakra reserves. When their tank is on empty, they're pretty much fucked.

-Haki only came into play relatively recently in One Piece and it's never been tied to a person's ability to fight. Not everyone has Haki. Those who have and can manipulate Haki tend to have a distinct advantage over those who don't, but it's never been a necessity. Luffy was doing quite well for a while without it.

Actually, everyone has a dormant version of Haki. Whether they can awaken it or not is the issue.
If you don't want to put a name on it, we can call it One Piece's power levels. And to me it was absurd that Crocodile would leave Luffy to die twice only for him to return for his rematch, or that Zoro somehow survived all of the damage/stress/tiredness that Luffy had taken on Moria's ship, on top of his own.

-Ki, from what I can remember, is pretty much the same as chakra. You need to be able to fly and shoot energy beams and all that stuff, but the difference is that Toriyama was mostly fair about it. Also, Ki wasn't implemented into summons, genjutsus, and eyeball powers.

There's so much enjoyment I can get from watching people power up for over an entire episode only for the target to mirror image away from the big blast. I prefer a little diversity to a 'Who's got the bigger penis' contest.

Got no problem with older Naruto pulling off larger summons (what was that? B-rank? A-rank?). What I do have a problem with are extremely powerful S-rank jutsus, which were established to be quite taxing even for the most experienced ninjas, being pulled off with seemingly no consequences whatsoever.

Actually, there are consequences. A lot of people were sacrificed for those Edo Tensei's. As for it being taxing, sure. But it doesn't mean you're going to see Kabuto pant after all that. As I said, he's got the white snake's power and is clearly one of Naruto's powerhouses, a force to be reckoned with that Madara needs to stay aware of. I don't think we'd reach that same conclusion if Kabuto was on his knees gasping for air.

Motoi's dad and the other guy are two different characters. There. I was wrong. I admit it. And it was very foolish of me to confuse the guy whose hair looks very similar to Motoi's with the guy who got one panel of screen time.

Well, no it wasn't foolish. But it's the way you said it, like you were the master of the universe and us puny peons were wrong all along.
Also, "got one panel of screen time" seems normal. He's a new character, he -just- got introduced amidst a bunch of other people.

It all depends on how well the author manages the story. There are many other series that have been fair about power levels and energy.

For a shounen series, Naruto has been very fair with its power levels. Jiraiya vs Pain, even with sage jutsu, Jiraiya eventually ran out of gas. No, the series has been fair, you just choose not to see it.

I don't care what kind of rules a fantasy world sets up. Characters can get their power from chakra, ki, magic fruits or magic toenails for all I care. What pisses me off is when the author starts contradicting the rules he/she has set up without any sort of explanation.

Kishimoto hasn't contradicted any rules with Edo Tensei. Kabuto has mastered the technique Orochimaru has devised. This could mean any number of things. Since we know that the technique can bring out almost anyone, Kabuto improved it on other aspects. Perhaps chakra consumption, or the ritual for the bodies?

He hasn't contradicted anything because he hasn't given any details on the technique yet. You're just bigoted.

[Nobodyman9]

All right, compromise time. As far as Edo Tensei is concerned, I still think it's stupid. I think the way Kishi is using it now is a cheap cop-out so he can recycle a bunch of old characters rather than create new ones. As for how it works, I don't know. So apparently, from what we can gather, you just have to sacrifice a human life and perform a ritual to somehow bring a dead person's soul into an artificial body. One thing that still bugs me about it though:

Where does the energy for this technique come from? Some have speculated that you use the chakra of the human sacrifice. If so, would that really be enough? Could the cumulative chakra from any fodder ninja really be enough to activate the ritual? If not do you make up the difference with your own chakra? Does it require chakra to keep the souls attached for long periods of time?

But at any rate, the actual workings of the techniques don't bother me too much. After all, Orochimaru used it before and it didn't really bug me then (though he didn't use it in abundance and it was sort of a trump technique). It bugs me moreso from a story standpoint in that I think it was very out of left field and unnecessary, at least in the abundance that it was used. And yeah, it is still kinda hax.

That being said...

Originally Posted by james0246

Why are you so worried about an event that took place 150 chapters ago ? Especially considering nothing going on currently is comparable to what you described.

Are you fucking kidding me? You're saying I shouldn't worry about something just because it happened 150 chapters ago? (which, BTW, isn't really that long ago, relatively speaking). The end of Sasuke vs. Deidara is one of the worse asspull victories in the history of Shonen manga. It doesn't matter if it was one chapter, 150 chapters or 300 chapters ago, it's still another crap stain on this absolutely detestable manga.

Originally Posted by Hunter

In this story? Yes they are.
Or are you actually saying Naruto's characters have ever acted and fought like regular ninja? And if not then why are you acting all surprised about it 515 chapters later?

I have acknowledged that the characters of Naruto have been very un-ninja-like in nature for quite some time. What baffles me is your willing acceptance of it.

Originally Posted by Frenchie

Actually, everyone has a dormant version of Haki. Whether they can awaken it or not is the issue.
If you don't want to put a name on it, we can call it One Piece's power levels. And to me it was absurd that Crocodile would leave Luffy to die twice only for him to return for his rematch, or that Zoro somehow survived all of the damage/stress/tiredness that Luffy had taken on Moria's ship, on top of his own.

In any case, haki is still not an energy source like chakra or ki that people need to be able to fight and make energy beams.

Well, no it wasn't foolish. But it's the way you said it, like you were the master of the universe and us puny peons were wrong all along.
Also, "got one panel of screen time" seems normal. He's a new character, he -just- got introduced amidst a bunch of other people.

The "one panel of screentime" guy I was referring to was Motoi's dad. The zombie guy's hair looks similar to Motoi's so I just made that assumption. Couldn't really remember what Motoi's dad looked like after 15 chapters and seeing one panel of him. But I'm dropping this subject now.

For a shounen series, Naruto has been very fair with its power levels. Jiraiya vs Pain, even with sage jutsu, Jiraiya eventually ran out of gas. No, the series has been fair, you just choose not to see it.

Tell that to the entire population of Konoha who ultimately couldn't permanently defeat a single Pain, whereas Naruto pwnd them all in a matter of minutes. So yeah, Naruto is officially stronger than the rest of the village combined.

He hasn't contradicted anything because he hasn't given any details on the technique yet. You're just bigoted.

LOL

[Frenchie]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Tell that to the entire population of Konoha who ultimately couldn't permanently defeat a single Pain, whereas Naruto pwnd them all in a matter of minutes. So yeah, Naruto is officially stronger than the rest of the village combined.

I don't think you were paying attention, but the only reason Naruto won was because the entire village as well as the cipher team pooled together their info for him to defeat Pain. All the info he needed was relayed via Katsuyu. Every two panels, the slug explained which types they were, which power they had, how the Rinnegan worked. Pain himself speculated after his fight with Jiraiya that the Ero-sennin could have won if he had known his secret. The key to defeating him lied in the information gathering, and that wasn't something Naruto could ever accomplish.

At the end of the day, Naruto could never have won without everyone else's sacrifices. He may get all the credit for being the guy that put a fist to the guy's face, but it doesn't change the facts.

LOL

I don't see how that's laughable. Kishimoto did not explain how Madara's transportation technique worked for hundreds of chapter until his fight with Konan where we got a little insight. Similarly, many techniques that we don't know about are later explained, when characters aim to defeat the jutsus.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Frenchie

I don't think you were paying attention, but the only reason Naruto won was because the entire village as well as the cipher team pooled together their info for him to defeat Pain. All the info he needed was relayed via Katsuyu. Every two panels, the slug explained which types they were, which power they had, how the Rinnegan worked. Pain himself speculated after his fight with Jiraiya that the Ero-sennin could have won if he had known his secret. The key to defeating him lied in the information gathering, and that wasn't something Naruto could ever accomplish.

At the end of the day, Naruto could never have won without everyone else's sacrifices. He may get all the credit for being the guy that put a fist to the guy's face, but it doesn't change the facts.

There were literally hundreds of people in that village, all of whom Katsuyu had (or should have had) equally easy access to. Even then, there were instances when a bunch of villagers were fighting a single Pain all at once, and they had just as much a chance to figure out how to beat them. Whereas Naruto took on all six at once. Aside from that, knowing their strengths and weaknesses will only take you so far.

Oh, and did you miss those panels where all the other villagers were saying, "No, we should stay out of Naruto's way. We can't do anything to help," despite the fact they were perfectly capable of fighting?

I don't see how that's laughable. Kishimoto did not explain how Madara's transportation technique worked for hundreds of chapter until his fight with Konan where we got a little insight. Similarly, many techniques that we don't know about are later explained, when characters aim to defeat the jutsus.

We'll see. Until then, LOL.

[milan kyuubi]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

There were literally hundreds of people in that village, all of whom Katsuyu had (or should have had) equally easy access to. Even then, there were instances when a bunch of villagers were fighting a single Pain all at once, and they had just as much a chance to figure out how to beat them. Whereas Naruto took on all six at once. Aside from that, knowing their strengths and weaknesses will only take you so far.

And Jiraiya took on all six of them at once to, and if he knew the secrets of Pain and had info on him he would had the chance of beating him.

Edit:

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Magic.

And now you are troling.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Frenchie

...

How do you think they gathered the intel, exactly?

Magic.

Their decision to let Naruto fight after the whole village was obliterated hardly seems difficult to swallow from a storytelling viewpoint.

Here's an idea. Our entire village has been completely obliterated, leaving very little for us to defend. Meanwhile, the guy who did wreck our village is still running rampant, so the best thing we can do is just let our white knight save us and do absolutely nothing to help him because we'd just be in the way.

They weren't even doing anything while they were letting Naruto fight!

EDIT: Let me just say that the Pain invasion was a perfect opportunity for the secondary characters to shine. Pain had six bodies, with varying strengths and weaknesses, which the side characters could have fought and gained a strategic advantage over by employing their own strengths. But no, instead Kishi created a huge power imbalance and the side characters ultimately did nothing.

[Frenchie]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Magic.


Here's an idea. Our entire village has been completely obliterated, leaving very little for us to defend. Meanwhile, the guy who did wreck our village is still running rampant, so the best thing we can do is just let our white knight save us and do absolutely nothing to help him because we'd just be in the way.

They weren't even doing anything while they were letting Naruto fight!

Actually, they were. Did you miss out on the cipher team puzzling out the rest of the code and organising most of the guys that could move through Katsuyu that they would look everywhere in high places for the -real- culprit behind the attack? Ie Nagato? As demonstrated by Shikamaru, not everyone was in a perfect, battle-ready state after the nuke on Konoha.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Frenchie

Actually, they were. Did you miss out on the cipher team puzzling out the rest of the code and organising most of the guys that could move through Katsuyu that they would look everywhere in high places for the -real- culprit behind the attack? Ie Nagato? As demonstrated by Shikamaru, not everyone was in a perfect, battle-ready state after the nuke on Konoha.

And what about everyone else? What about Shikamaru and Kiba and Ino and Shino and Hinata (oh, right...). As far as I could tell they were just standing around while the last Pain was raping Naruto's ass.

[Frenchie]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

And what about everyone else? What about Shikamaru and Kiba and Ino and Shino and Hinata (oh, right...). As far as I could tell they were just standing around while the last Pain was raping Naruto's ass.

What about them? They just barely survived the attack thanks to Tsunade, and that same person, their commander-in-chief, was literally told to step down and go sip on some tea by Naruto (and did, though not sure about the tea part). I don't see this as a failure of the writer, Tsunade has always sought to give Naruto missions and keep him a ninja, and this was a big moment in order to establish the character as reliable (And prove the elders wrong).

As for that particular moment where Naruto got pinned down, a character did step in.

Considering that sage mode was the necessary prerequisite for Naruto to surpass Jiraiya and to be able to defeat Pain, anyone else joining in the fray would have been luggage.

I was one of several readers that wanted Shikamaru to join the fray, to me he was the only one with the will to get out there and fight but he had a broken leg.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Frenchie

What about them?

Yeah, that seems to be Kishi's attitude.

They just barely survived the attack thanks to Tsunade, and that same person, their commander-in-chief, was literally told to step down and go sip on some tea by Naruto (and did, though not sure about the tea part). I don't see this as a failure of the writer, Tsunade has always sought to give Naruto missions and keep him a ninja, and this was a big moment in order to establish the character as reliable (And prove the elders wrong).

Proving Naruto as reliable is one thing. Putting the fate of the village in his hands is another. And it would be one thing if he was their last hope, but there were many other able-bodied fighters that Kishi decided were just too weak to handle it. Oh yeah, and letting Naruto handle partially just to spite the elders. Yeah, real mature Tsunade.

Oh, and this brings up another point that Naruto had suddenly become totally adored by the entire village offscreen. So yeah, everything he ever hoped for just sorta happened...offscreen.

Also, Pain destroying the village was random and unnecessary, especially since, Hey! We were able to rebuild it all overnight without any death or long-term ramifications!

As for that particular moment where Naruto got pinned down, a character did step in.

Yeah, good for her. Good ol'...good ol' what's-her-name.

Considering that sage mode was the necessary prerequisite for Naruto to surpass Jiraiya and to be able to defeat Pain, anyone else joining in the fray would have been luggage.

Terrible execution. I'm all for the idea of Naruto surpassing Jiraiya, but the way Kishi went about it was horribly sloppy. Here's an idea: how about of handling everything on your own, how about getting a little help from your friends (and I don't mean just getting some intel from them that could've been done by 5 or 6 people and was ultimately inconsequential anyway).

[Frenchie]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Oh, and this brings up another point that Naruto had suddenly become totally adored by the entire village offscreen. So yeah, everything he ever hoped for just sorta happened...offscreen.

Wasn't offscreen. A whole chapter was dedicated to it.

Yeah, good for her. Good ol'...good ol' what's-her-name.

And then you don't claim to be bigoted.

Terrible execution. I'm all for the idea of Naruto surpassing Jiraiya, but the way Kishi went about it was horribly sloppy. Here's an idea: how about of handling everything on your own, how about getting a little help from your friends (and I don't mean just getting some intel from them that could've been done by 5 or 6 people and was ultimately inconsequential anyway).

Information gathering has been a ninja precept from the start. Establishing it as inconsequential is the last thing on the author's mind.