2014-08-05, 04:41
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Link #34521 |
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Junior Member
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Greece
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Well, I was rereading the tea party of EP7 recently and I noticed something out of place. I'm not sure if this has been discussed before. Anyway, here I go:
Bernkastel shows to Lion that even in the happiest possible fragment of Yasu's life she still gets killed. Her story makes sense up to a certain point and goes somewhat like this: The adults started arguing about Lion's right to become the family head, so Kinzo posed a difficult riddle (the epitaph), which he had thought up since the construction of the mansion. All the relatives worked together and solved the riddle which led them to the hidden gold room. Bernkastel follows this part with an "After this everything happened as you saw before". However, the exclusion of Yasu from the tale creates a major problem. There is no cash card! I believe that the tea party makes it pretty clear that Kyrie and Rudolf commit all the murders in order to obtain the cash card. It is mentioned that the gold would be extremely difficult to turn into cash without the help of Krauss. And even if we assume that they settled for the gold, how many ingots would the two of them be able to carry? Is it possible that they are willing to kill all these people just to smuggle a couple of ingots, which they will have difficulty converting to usable cash later? Does this mean that the whole story was just Bernkastel staying true to her trolling nature? Maybe Lion actually lives a happy life and the lack of motive in Bernkastel's tale is a hint to that. What do you think everyone? |
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2014-08-05, 09:03
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Link #34522 | ||
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Eaten by goats
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
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Kyrie's family might have connections she could tap into which could convert the gold for her. She's not very keen on her family, but if she was desperate, perhaps she could still ask for their help. Alternatively, perhaps the cash card existed in that fragment, but for a different reason? Kinzo was still alive: maybe he told Genji to prepare the cash card for Lion's use. After all this time I'm still not totally sure what the fragments stand for. 
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2014-08-05, 13:32
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Link #34523 | |
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The True Culprit
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
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2014-08-05, 17:14
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Link #34524 | ||||
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Junior Member
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Greece
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Moreover, the value of the ingots they would be able to carry couldn't match up to the amount of money the cash card could provide. And don't forget that they would have to carry the ingots back home. What excuse could they possibly use at the boat that would come to take them? "Oh the whole island blew up with all our relatives, but thank god we could save these five gold ingots!" Or they could hide them under their shirts and keep repeating how great Gohda's cooking was!  As for the existence of the cash card by another random means, doesn't it sound like a cheap explanation? I could explain the existence of guns with some random theory: "Kinzo sometimes kept his prized gun collection in the hidden gold room. This way he could relax by the gold while caressing his guns and contemplating blowing up the island if he couldn't come up with a clever business move." It could work! But having a cash card available there? It seems quite forced, don't you agree? Quote:
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"Don't look for a miracle! Be one!" That quote gave me goosebumps. One of the reasons that I like this theory is that Sayo really deserves a happy life, at least as Lion. Bernkastel tried to take even that from her, right in front of Clair's lifeless eyes. But the fact that Will saved her gives me hope that there is a happy life for her. Even though their struggle against Bernkastel seems futile and we never get a proper conclusion to it, I'd like to believe that they succeeded. That Lion really did become the miracle she was looking for. |
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2014-08-06, 06:53
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Link #34525 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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A possibility is that episode 7 teaparty lied about Kyrie's motive or modus operandi. After all for part of ep 7 we have no surviving observer (Kyrie died so she can't give us her version of her own motive and of what happened after Eva lost consciousness) and for the parts for which we have one (Eva) that observer is partial and is probably presenting her own interpretation. So, even if things went in a way that's similar to the teaparty actually there could have been relevant differences. In addition Lion's world is fictional so it's a bit like ep 6. It makes no sense for Erika to murder everyone yet she does.
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2014-08-06, 11:41
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Link #34526 | ||
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Junior Member
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Greece
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But I think I disagree about the parts that Eva did witness. If I remember correctly Featherine used the red to say that Eva's diary contains the truth of what happened on Rokkenjima. If we assume that the diary only contains the parts that Eva witnessed, those parts have to be the truth. The red is supposed to be objective after all. All the extra scenes (not witnessed by Eva) presented on the tea party were the missing pieces that Eva would use to complete her own interpretation of the story. They aren't objectively true and therefore they are not included in the diary. Since some scenes of the tea party are just interpretations Bernkastel can only say: "This is all truth of some sort but not necessarily true." In EP8 Ange finally reads the book of one truth/Eva's diary. Inside it, she see's only what Eva saw, but having witnessed the tea party, she believes all those extra scenes that she was presented to be the truth. Since the diary only contains the scenes that Eva witnessed Bernkastel can say: "This is all truth" I really don't know what twist could be hiding behind Kyrie's actions and if there really is one it would offer a whole new perspective on the events of the one true. Quote:
Isn't every fragment supposed to make sense both as fiction and as real world events? |
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2014-08-06, 13:00
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Link #34527 | |
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The True Culprit
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
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So she says all this evil villain stuff so Eva will take care of Ange, because yea there's no way she's getting off the hook when Eva's pointing a gun at her and she's covered in blood.
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2014-08-07, 06:59
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Link #34528 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Red truth is true but, for lack of better words is also 'opinionable' so that you can use it to say that Shannon is dead although her body is not. Eva's diary might contain truths that actually end up misleading us. If I say kyrie aimed at Eva's head and hit it, it's factually true but since I didn't specify the hit zone was only a thin patch of skin as the bullet only grazed her my factual truth will lead you to assume Eva is dead or, at least, seriously wounded.
Add to this that we don't exactly know what was written in the diary and what was the result of the reader's interpretation and you get a red truth that's tied to the interpretation of Eva and Ange. As for Lion's world the idea behind Umineko is that what exists is what we call Prime while the others are all works of fiction to fill the catbox. Lion is specifically definend as Beatrice's dream, which Bern turned into a nightmare. Of course you can try embracing the meta interpretation and believe all the gameboards are real words and ignore how they're only supposed to be tales in the catbox. I guess it's a possible interpretation but to me doesn't feel like the intended interpretation. |
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2014-08-07, 10:59
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Link #34529 | ||
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Junior Member
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Greece
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That scene with George conversing with Shannon during the tea party doesn't seem to serve any specific purpose, so perhaps it is a hint to what really happened. Quote:
In regard to the book of one truth however, isn't it a bit of a cheat to declare that it contains the truth if it contains falsehoods? Let's say that I see a bunny, but interpret it as a cat. If I write a book about my experience, I can indeed claim that this book contains my "personal truth". But no red could ever be used to affirm its contents as "the truth". The phrase Featherine uses is "The truth is written in this diary." If Featherine used this phrase for my book it would literally mean that I saw a cat. Since it's "the truth" that's inside Eva's diary, there's no room left for her interpretations. Anything she saw and wrote down is what actually happened. How the reader interprets the diary is a completely different subject and I don't see how it could be connected to the red describing its contents. As for the truths inside the diary, they could be very misleading indeed, but they would still be true. Last edited by renosm; 2014-08-07 at 17:20. |
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2014-08-09, 19:55
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Link #34530 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 39
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Argh, great, my post got deleted by my browser fucking up again...so I will make it a little shorter this time.
I finally decided to get volume 6 of the EP7 manga and was suprised to see that they actually inserted new content into the chapters before Yasu solves the epitaph. The new scenes include a better explanation of how Kanon was created, a more detailed depiction of the siblings reaction to the epitaph and Kinzo and Genji having a conversation about their motivation. Spoiler for Kanon's creation:
The siblings reaction to the epitaph is also a lot more detailed: Eva basically directly jumps on the riddle aspect and the fact that everybody is allowed to solve it: "A riddle is meant to be solved. So yes...it really is...It really means that!! Father never had any intentions of handing the headship of the family to Krauss-niisan!! Kukuku...kihihihihhihi! Finally...Finally my chance had come about! My chance to become the head of this family!!" Kyrie sees it as a nefarious plan from Kinzo, with some vile or malicious intent hidden behind it that doesn't become clear until you solve it. She is quite sure that there is a different goal than just randomly deciding the family head, but also thinks that the 10t of gold could be real and that it is a chance to ride upon. Rosa sees it as her chance to get her husband back by getting into money again, but also fears that it is impossible to reach a solution, so she shows the epitaph to Maria who immediatly sees it as the "witch's ritual" and wants to confront Beato about it. And then there's the conversation between Genji and Kinzo. First they just talk about why Kinzo put the epitaph up now, he wants to create a mircale to bring Beatrice back, yadda yadda yadda, but then Genji actually speaks up: Spoiler for Kinzo's regrets:
After this follows another conversation between Will and Clair and it is confirmed that Kinzo knew (as we learn in Confession of the Golden Witch) that the baby wasn't dead and that he put up the epitaph as a sign to Genji that he knew. Genji understood this and considered what to do. Will asked if the epitaph game was just a farce put up as a game between Kinzo and Genji and Clair confirms it. They close this by saying that the epitaph was never meant to be "solved" somebody was meant to be "made able to solve it". |
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2014-08-10, 18:21
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Link #34532 | |
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A Rather Brillig Ember
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: North America
Age: 27
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2014-08-10, 18:55
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Link #34533 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 39
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Also considering that even after EP8 was finished we were still wondering what Genji's motivation was for suddenly getting Yasu and Kinzo together...I don't think this scene was in the VN in that form or else we were all blind. It basically tells us that Genji had hoped for Kinzo to get better but didn't believe him. When he was finally convinced enough that Kinzo wouldn't repeat his errors of the past he led Yasu to the gold. |
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2014-08-10, 19:45
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Link #34534 |
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a.k.a. Akari_House
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere near Seattle
Age: 53
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Actually, I think Drifloon is correct. I clearly remember both these scenes from playing episode 7 in both Japanese and English.
I remember also Genji getting a lot of flak here at the time because of his methods still being really pretty questionable. That said, perhaps paired with the manga art these scenes have a bit more impact. From what I recall they were largely blank screen walls of text in the game.
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2014-08-10, 21:26
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Link #34535 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Okay, I checked Ep 7 VN. It has the scene with Kanon but it's a little different as, in the VN there's an interruption from Beato who volunteer to get the bud of love.
I can't see the manga but from the dialogue the scene seems to put more the focus on Kanon while in the VN the focus is more on how Beato will do this and that for Shannon. In regard to Kyrie in the VN she thinks the malice comes from the fact Kinzo believes they won't solve it... so it looks like somehting much softer than Kinzo having a nefarous plan. Eva's monologue seems the same in the VN although it might be shorter. We're told Rosa wanted to solve the epitaph (so maybe the one she loves will come back) but gave up immediately and, as soon as she saw Maria, tried to have her solve it with Maria acting the same as the manga. In the dialogue between Kinzo and Genji in the VN Kinzo seems much calmer but maybe it's just me and there are some differences in it but maybe it's just a matter of translations? |
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2014-08-13, 06:18
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Link #34536 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
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Yeah, the VN version of that scene is here, for reference.
It seems to me like any difference in emphasis could easily just be a translation thing - aside from the wording, the flow of the conversation seems pretty much exactly the same - but I could be wrong. |
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2014-08-15, 06:05
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Link #34537 | |
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Junior Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
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Since there are still someone here, I want to talk a little about some of my random thoughts about Umineko. But this a HUGE post written by someone with an english on the same level as Battler's so take in consideration that it's IMPOSSIBURU for this to be PERFECTO.
From the first time that I was reading Umineko I found Dlanor's weapons really strange. The definition of what they do is ridiculous and not even really used on the story. During the fight of Dlanor with some characters they always do something like block or dodge her attack while the weapon's description says that it is impossible to do that. Of course, on Umineko world how powerful a character is will dependent more on how much intelligent he is, but if it's like that what even is the point of writing all that ? And for some reason it appears on the tips, who should serve to have an easy look on some important points of the story. But thinking on the tohya's forgeries as something he wrote to pass a message to Ange I come of a kind of interpretation. First, as we know, Dlanor isn't the writer Ronald A. Knox, but the personification of the Decalogue, who is introduced as the "way" to solve the mystery. Of course you can debate about how much the gameboard really follow the decalogue, but is a fact that Battler solved the game using the Decalogue as a base to his reasoning. After that we need to remember the names of her weapons: Red key and Blue key. That "key" part on the name is kind of strange for a random weapon. But if we think as the decalogue as a way to "open" the cat box, it appears to have some importance. We then have 2 keys who are able to open the cat box, each of them with a different definition. The red key is also called The red key of "judgment" and it's definition give an image of death, destruction and hopelessness. The other one is the blue key who is also called The Blue key of "reflection", and that already give the overall image that I have about this weapon. Something that make someone able to "renew" oneself, it's the auto-reflection. What I think about those weapons is that each of them represent a different disposition of the person solving the case. The why this person is try to understand what happened, what they are trying to attain with that. If we thing about the description as something referring to Ange, the red key "of judgment" would be doing that for "revenge" or even with no specific porosity, just judging who is right and who is wrong, while the blue key "of reflection", gives some true meaning to the objective of solving the case, as an important process to knowing oneself, and reflect about one's life. What I find interesting when I think about that is that on EP8, on Ange's choice about trick or magic, Battler shows to Ange 2 DOORS and depending of hers conclusion she will pass through one of the doors. On the trick ending, the door that I think that is open with the "red key", Ange kills Amakusa and even Kawabata and what happened to her is unknown. On the magic end, she reflects about herself, about how she lived her life, and how she will live from now on. It's interesting that while the red key is defined as "denying the concept of things", the blue key definition it's said about a reflection achieved through "self-doubting" and denying themselves. On the trick end Ange, more or less, deny everything that Battler was trying to teach her and kill Amakusa and Kawabata, in other words this too could be referred as "denying their existence". On the magic end Ange understand and accept what Battler was trying to convey, and "denied" herself, as we know that she killed her identity as Ushiromiya Ange and "renew" herself as Kotobuki Yukari. Another point is about Erika as a representation of what Ange could become, something that was already talked sometime ago. It's interesting that Amakusa analogy about the children soldiers and that Ange could become that, is more or less the base to Erika's character. She even calls herself an intellectual rapist because what she likes to do is just reveal people's secret. Referring to Ange would mean her solving things with no goal in mind, and this is more or less what Erika does every time. On episode 6 when Ange becomes the "miko" of Featherine, in other words the reader, is the episode where Battler is the GM(writer), and we have Erika on the position of "reader", trying to solve the case. So on a way we can thing that the reader and the writer of the episode overlaps. Well thinking on Erika as a representation of the "bad" Ange gives some kind of interesting interpretation. First when you think that when Erika started to try to solve the murders on episode 5, she summoned Dlanor( and as much, her weapons), which is kind of interesting when you thing about what I said before about what they can represent and that her weapons were written with Ange in mind. So is kind of interesting to have the two of them as partners. Then thinking about the ends there is a lot of difference concerning Erika there, the most interesting is Ange acting like Erika on the trick end and then she appears, almost as a ghost. I think that it's even possible to make a parallel between Ange/Erika on the trick end and Tohya/Battler on the magic end. On the magic End, Tohya goes to the Fukuin house, now similar to Rokkenjima. It's kind of important to think that "Ushiromiya Battler" "died" on rokkenjima and comes back (at least metaphorically) when his other identity, Tohya, kind of comes back to Rokkenjima's equivalent here, the Fukuin house. On the Trick end, after Ange kills Amakusa and Kawabata, Erika come back, on a place similar to where the true Furudo Erika died,on a boat near Rokkenjima. And the one there is Ange. So we can think that on both ends there is someone who dies on a place and come back when his other identity arrives there, connecting death and rebirth. For me it kind of make sense because the trick end is the end where Ange doesn't really reflect about herself and just go down the road Amakusa feared on episode 4. On the magic end, Erika is not more with Ange because she passed through all of that proccess of auto-reflection, and as the blue key says "denied herself"(Erika), purging Erika's character from her. Again, it's interesting to take in consideration that on that end Erika is with Bern and Lambda. While the relationship between Bern with rika and Lambda with takano is still something to debate, Bern is a lot of times thought as someone that was purged out of Rika, and we can kind of say the same about Lambda. So Bern was purged out of Rika, Lambda out of Takano and Erika was on that end, after Ange reflect about herself and "purging" out of her everything that represents Erika, together with the other two who are similar to her. Another thing that I find interesting if we look with all of that in mind is that there are 3 main "groups" of characters on Umineko: The 7 sisters of purgatory, The chiesters and the Eiserne jungfrau. The interesting part is that each of them could have a direct relation to each of the members of Mariage sorciere. The 7 sisters of purgatory being based of the other servants of the fukuin house that Yasu met; the chiesters, while they can refer to the winchiesters, they can represent maria's ceramic bunnies too; and dlanor( and erika) representing some aspect from Ange. I think that is possible that Cornelia and Gertrude have they own "role" about Ange, but never thought too deep about that. I need to reread Umineko before talking about anything of the sort, but I kind of remember that almost all the scenes with them, they are interacting between themselves, dlanor and Erika, with the only exception being the party on ep8. The first thing that I thought was a talk between Maria and Beato were she says: Quote:
On Gertrude case is referring more to mystery books and entertainment, while on Cornelia is more about a "newcomer" on an organization. I like the fact that Gertrude is the experienced member of Eiserne Jungfrau while Cornelia is the newcomer, to represent that point about the child and the adult. We could even interpret that Erika "Bullying" Cornelia as Ange denying her child like self. But is still not a theory that I find solid enough, I mean, even Dlanor is said to be a child thousand of times, so it kind of lose the point of Cornelia being the child here. Anyway it’s “just” that and sorry if something is difficult to understand (probably is), I usually don’t write anything in English. |
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2014-08-15, 14:51
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Link #34538 | |
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The True Culprit
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
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Your analysis is interesting though, thank you very much for sharing it! Your english is not difficult to read or understand!
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2014-08-25, 05:04
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Link #34539 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
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so after reading the manga and looking at the ps3 story i thought i should share my coloring from the manga page, again its pretty bloody but i thought this was a shocking scene, sorry if this is not allowed the image thread seems to be closed...
Spoiler for EP8:VERY bloody NSFW?:
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