Romance in Code Geass (Take 3)

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Frostfire

Lelouch loving Kallen is superfluous, its not even the discussion. This is about you putting her on a generic peg of "he'd have done it for anyone". Skyless was right that people here run like scared rabits the moment Kallen may, by some chance, be seen as more than just another friend too Lelouch. You know, just like Suzaku and Shirley. No one's going to jump on me for saying Shirley though.

I've shown you time and again. He did not treat her like his other friends in the finally.

Exactly. And putting away all the shipping-crap, in S1 Lulu did not hesitate to use her along with the BK to accomplish his own goals. {the fact that they got their fair amount of deal like Lulu said in S1 finale, is another discussion}
In R2, no. It is not the same. It is Black Knights and it is "Kallen." Point? He cared a HELL lot more about her compared to S1. People's feelings change. And Lelouch certainly saw Kallen on another light in R2.

[Nogitsune]

Hm... I think this is all getting a little to heated.
I like discussions, but I really don't see the point in arguing.
Oh welll...

Originally Posted by Frostfire

Oh come on, you are making an absolutely attrocious point with 'was he in luv with her'. Its a piss poor argument and you know it, especially since the show showed how much of a gamble taking her was to begin with but she was always in his pocket if needed because of Euphemia and FREIJA.

I'm just saying that romantic love isn't the explanation for everything that doesn't make sense from a purely logical point of view.

Nina could have always been a thorn in Lelouch's side but a useful tool, and one he willingly accepted.

He could also have just geassed her.
After all, he had his doubts.

Either he's an absolute idiot or he did not want Kallen involved for other reasons than "I don't need her." Going by the show, I'd say the latter.

Yes, she was a very close friend to him.
I think I already mentioned that a view times.

He had guns pointed at him by Geassed civilians. What happens if he refuses to hand over Nina? Rivalz was in danger, he was a delivery boy, a messenger. Guess who always gets shot first? The messenger.

I'll give you that.

I'm seriously lost now. What are you arguing then? If you know that he did not involve Kallen for reasons other than "I don't need her", which you just said was not the reason, what is being talked over?

Uhm... because I tried to give some other possible explanations for Lelouch not involving Kallen than "he was in love with her, and we all know that romantic love does not require logical thinking!", maybe.

The show quite clearly told us that he wasn't going to hesitate. "I'm doing this for the world, not just Nunally." Were his words, more or less. You can't just say "If this then that", I can say that too. "If aliens invaded, Lelouch would have become their king." Doesn't work.

And I don't see the point in bringing up that he used Nunally, but not Kallen.
Basically, that's all I wanted to say.

I think this needs to be expressed again: HE THOUGHT NUNALLY WAS DEAD WHEN THIS HAPPENED.

Errr... I think I didn't really get my point across. Oh well.

Lelouch loving Kallen is superfluous, its not even the discussion.

Then I really don't see the point in arguing.
Because all I wanted to say was that I have reasons for not accepting Kalulu as "as good as canon".

This is about you putting her on a generic peg of "he'd have done it for anyone". Skyless was right that people here run like scared rabits the moment Kallen may, by some chance, be seen as more than just another friend too Lelouch. You know, just like Suzaku and Shirley. No one's going to jump on me for saying Shirley though.

And I don't like to think that Milly and Rivalz didn't matter much to Lelouch.
It's not about Kallen. It's about me believing that they were both great friends and that Lelouch appreciated them.
I already said that I agree that Kallen (along with C.C.) comes right after Suzaku. But that doesn't mean that Lelouch just dismissed his other friends without a second thought.
I'm not saying that Lelouch would "have done that for everyone". Just that Lelouch could only detach himself from the student council so "easily" because of the circumstances.

Ahh, the proverbial much closer friend. Because, when she was captured, they had a lot of time to be real chummy.

Nah, but before that.
And I even agree that the events in episode 7 had an impact on him. I just don't think that he fell in love with her.

Couldn't have anything to maybe do with him actually caring for as more than just another friend, one of those after-loss realizations. No couldn't be that.

Of course that could be the case.
But I don't have to believe that. I was responding to the claim that Kalulu was so obvious that dismissing it should be impossible.

I'm not arguing that he's in love with her, I'm arguing against this annoying dismission of "he'd have done it for anyone else".

Maybe you're arguing with the wrong person about that?
Because Kallen happens to be one of my favourite characters, and I really only wanted to say that there is no undeniable proof for him being in love with her.
I'm pretty mellow about everything else.

Did Lelouch's evolve some desire to be all super protective of Milly? She was a fine standing woman and a close friend. I, however, don't remember him risking anything to keep her safe. I even remember using her and everyone else as pieces against Suzaku in Season 1.

And I still think she was very important to him.
Let's not argue about that - I won't change my opinion when it comes to the importance of friendship in Code Geass.

From how Lelouch treated Shirley?

Well, that's just a matter of interpretation.
No point in arguing here.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Maybe you're arguing with the wrong person about that?
Because Kallen happens to be one of my favourite characters, and I really only wanted to say that there is no undeniable proof for him being in love with her.
I'm pretty mellow about everything else.

Classifying someone above others, does not necessarily mean you're in love with them. It just shows you care more about that said person.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by skyless

Classifying someone above others, does not necessarily mean you're in love with them. It just shows you care more about that said person.

And I agreed.
Kallen and C.C. are closer to Lelouch's heart than Milly and Rivalz.
But that doesn't mean he would just have screwed them over. Errr... well, maybe Rivalz, but he's male, and Lelouch seems much more protective of females.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

And I agreed.
Kallen and C.C. are closer to Lelouch's heart than Milly and Rivalz.
But that doesn't mean he would just have screwed them over. Errr... well, maybe Rivalz, but he's male, and Lelouch seems much more protective of females.

except that the female we're discussing happens to be his personal BODYGUARD
but he nevertheless acted much more protectively of her then anyone else other then nunnaly (from the 2nd ep of season 2)

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

I'm not saying that Lelouch would "have done that for everyone". Just that Lelouch could only detach himself from the student council so "easily" because of the circumstances.

He made the cirumstance in both Stage 24-25, and Turn 22-25. He made those circumstances and he used them easily. It doesn't matter if it is because of the circumstances when he's the one who made them in the first place.

He turned Ashford into a base and used the SS as bait and leverage on Suzaku. Scenario and circumstances he created.

He turned the world on its head and used Rivalz, Nina, and countless others under a scenari and circumstances he'd created.

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Of course that could be the case.
But I don't have to believe that. I was responding to the claim that Kalulu was so obvious that dismissing it should be impossible.

But I'm not saying canon this or canon that. I'm telling you that you can't just classify her as 'just a friend that he'd to the same for any other friend' when the show showed that he doesn't do that.

And if this is your problem then you must not like any pairing at all because they can all amount to this. But, I'll ask, why are you questioning Kallen? Why not question Shirley? This is just going back to what I and Skyless said, there is a knee-jerk reaction to Kallen and Lelouch being mentioned in the same sentence.

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

And I still think she was very important to him.
Let's not argue about that - I won't change my opinion when it comes to the importance of friendship in Code Geass.

Sigh. I have an appointment with the Sun.

[bladeofdarkness]

the right thing to say about his general conduct in the final arc is actually not
"he would have treated any of his friends the same way that he treated kallen"
its
"he would have treated any of his friends the same way EXCEPT KALLEN (who he treats differently)"

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Frostfire

And if this is your problem then you must not like any pairing at all because they can all amount to this. But, I'll ask, why are you questioning Kallen? Why not question Shirley? This is just going back to what I and Skyless said, there is a knee-jerk reaction to Kallen and Lelouch being mentioned in the same sentence.

Most of the times, that is cause a lot of people were angry about C.C's role getting shafted on R2, Shirley dying quite early in the series, so that leaves Kallen running and gunning on the field by herself. I don't think i have to explain what kind of field that is.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Frostfire

And if this is your problem then you must not like any pairing at all because they can all amount to this.

Not thinking that something is canon doesn't mean I don't like it.
But you know what?
You've got me there. xD
I really don't care much for any pairing involving Lelouch.

I support SchneizelxKanon, though.
And a little SuzakuxEuphemia.
And C.C.xClovisxArthur, because crack is fun. xD
...I think you get the idea. ;P

But, I'll ask, why are you questioning Kallen? Why not question Shirley?

I do quoestion Lelouch's romantic love for Shirley, but I really saw no need to bring that up again.

This is just going back to what I and Skyless said, there is a knee-jerk reaction to Kallen and Lelouch being mentioned in the same sentence.

Nah, I like them both, and I also enjoy seeing them interact with each other.
Just not as a couple.

Sigh. I have an appointment with the Sun.

Bring them some cake!

[Levy]

Originally Posted by Frostfire

I also don't get what you mean 'risk of being caught there'? Caught where?

On Kaminejima, ep. 21, before the one month skip.
After that, we might assume we have already took the decision of going through Zero Requiem without her and arranged almost all the first part.

But I'm not sold on this hypotesis either, I prefer my first one.

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Not thinking that something is canon doesn't mean I don't like it.
But you know what?
You've got me there. xD
I really don't care much for any pairing involving Lelouch.

I support SchneizelxKanon, though.
And a little SuzakuxEuphemia.
And C.C.xClovisxArthur, because crack is fun. xD
...I think you get the idea. ;P

I think we've resolved our differences. Huraa!

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

I do quoestion Lelouch's romantic love for Shirley, but I really saw no need to bring that up again.

I haven't been here for that long, so I haven't exactly seen you oppose Shirley (I'll assume C.C. as well), but the moment they get brought up. I'll be tapping my fingers, waiting for you to come up and say this and that.

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Bring them some cake!

I hate cake.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Frostfire

I hate cake.

The cake's a lie.

[bladeofdarkness]

here is the point you need to understand

rivals is the bike guy
thats all he does (driving people around)
thats his sole role in the anime
so he used him in that role (to get nina)

nina has two aspacts to her character
euphie crazed lezbo
and nuke making know how
so he used the first part as a way to get the second part

thats all they do and thats what he had them do for him

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Frostfire

I think we've resolved our differences. Huraa!

*cheers* xD

I haven't been here for that long, so I haven't exactly seen you oppose Shirley (I'll assume C.C. as well), but the moment they get brought up. I'll be tapping my fingers, waiting for you to come up and say this and that.

I'll be there. ;P

I hate cake.

Well, one more reason to give it to someone else!
Like Sunrise... or me. xD

[SonOfHeaven]

So Lelouch could have loved both Shirley or Kallen. I wouldn't be surprised if he had fallen for Kallen(mutual kiss with nothing else about it, not about being comforted or about memories) given what happened throughout R2 and what's been said and interpreted already. Especially what happened during turn 22 since Lelouch should have lied to Kallen again but he chose not to(strange ZR was about he becoming a tyrant and if he lied to Kallen during her moment she would have hated him regardless especially after the kiss).

Still don't see what's the big deal about it is. Even if he could have loved Shirley or Kallen but he is gone now or is it the possibility that Kallen would live the rest of her life not being involved with no one else. Which wouldn't be surprising.

[Lolipopo]

Originally Posted by SonOfHeaven

So Lelouch could have loved both Shirley or Kallen. I wouldn't be surprised if he had fallen for Kallen(mutual kiss with nothing else about it, not about being comforted or about memories) given what happened throughout R2 and what's been said and interpreted already. Especially what happened during turn 22 since Lelouch should have lied to Kallen again but he chose not to(strange ZR was about he becoming a tyrant and if he lied to Kallen during her moment she would have hated him regardless especially after the kiss).

Still don't see what's the big deal about it is. Even if he could have loved Shirley or Kallen but he is gone now or is it the possibility that Kallen would live the rest of her life not being involved with no one else. Which wouldn't be surprising.

The big deal is...that we agree about Shirley and Kallen...
But CC isn't in the equation, and THIS is annoying to her fans.

And that's what I don't get; Lelouch and CC relationship wasn't about romance and that's what makes it special from my view; About the others girls, it was their plot, all about romance with Lelouch; Because Lelouch loves one in a romantic way doesn't mean the other is less important to him, clearly not.

Now Lelouch needs to wants CC's heart and body to make their relationship interesting ? It had never been about that for them so I don't see what's the big deal to see Kallen and Shirley as LI while CC is his partner, their link is still there.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Lolipopo

Lelouch and CC relationship wasn't about romance and that's what makes it special from my view

You know, I totally agree with that.
I love their relationship as it is, and if they were involved romantically, it probably wouldn't change anything.

[SonOfHeaven]

Originally Posted by Lolipopo

The big deal is...that we agree about Shirley and Kallen...
But CC isn't in the equation, and THIS is annoying to her fans.

And that's what I don't get; Lelouch and CC relationship wasn't about romance and that's what makes it special from my view; About the other girl, it was their plot, all about romance with Lelouch; Because Lelouch loves one in a romantic way
doesn't means the other is important to him, clearly not.

Now Lelouch needs to wants CC's heart and body to make their relationship interesting ? It had never been about that for them so I don't see what's the big deal to see Kallen and Shirley as LI while CC is his partner, their link is still there.

I never saw Lelouch and C.C's relationship in a romantic way. Though, that's just me since that relationship definitely comes down to one's interpretation. Late in the series Kallen asked her about loving Lelouch but she didn't know so that for me was enough for me to understand. I won't even try to elaborate on it.

[bladeofdarkness]

the problem is that most people still miss the point of what the argument is about
its not about lelouch's feelings for kallen (how ever you choose to view them)
its about the rational for his actions in ZERO-R in regards to her

when you say "keeping her out of it doesnt mean that he has feelings for her" you might have a point
but when you say "he treated her like he would treat all of his friends" you shoot yourself in the foot
becouse while we dont know (with full certainty) how lelouch feels about kallen
we do know what he actually did during ZERO-R
and he treated his "friends" one way (using both nina and rivals)
and treated kallen (and only kallen) in a completely differnetly way

and thats even without adding that there is a huge difference in the actual use that he would have for kallen when compered to any of his other friends
namely that rivals and milly would be useless while kallen would be priceless to his forces (she certaintly proved a bigger theat then anyone else when opposing them)

[Nogitsune]

Hm... we should make use of the almost peaceful atmosphere.
Who knows how long it will last?

So...
Anyone in the mood for discussing crack pairings and other amusing romance related stuff? xD