(L) Tari Tari

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Haak

Which seems to be happening all the time. Really I just wish the near constant HSI and Okada-bashing would stop already. It's clear other people have different opinions and it's kinda pointless to beat a dead horse. It may have been funny the first few hundred times but now it's just ridiculous. It's come to point where I can't even tell if Triple_R was being serious or not in his last post.

In complete seriousness, I think that Mari Okada is a very good writer.

AnoHana came in 10th, and Hanasaku Iroha came in 7th, in my Top 10 Anime of 2011 list. So I think that speaks to me holding Okada to be a very good writer.

It's just that there's certain aspects of Okada's writing style that are very fun to lampoon, in my view. Those same aspects also mean that, depending on what I'm hoping for out of a show, I may or may not like the idea of Okada writing it.


In complete fairness, HSI does have at least four key advantages over Tari Tari for me:

1. HSI's main setting (hot springs inn) is much more original and conducive to distinct stories than yet another high school-based anime.

2. Ohana is the best character from either show, at least so far. Yes, even over Wien and Sawa.

3. A more diverse cast.

4. HSI was a bit prettier.


Tari Tari's key advantages for me (so far) is more consistency, better male characters, and fewer annoying scenes (no Jiromau, no Enishi, no Takako).

So what I'd say is that HSI's highs are greater than Tari Tari's highs (so far) but HSI's lows are also lower than Tari Tari's lows (so far).

They're both very good shows though.


I am sincerely pleased that Okada is not writing this, but it's for a very ironic reason - I'd like to see a pretty serious slice of life/drama show like True Tears. You know, the True Tears anime that Okada wrote.

Okada doesn't seem to want to write True Tears-style shows anymore.

I'm fine with more lighthearted/decompressed HSI-style shows every now and then, but really well-done serious drama is hard to come by in the anime world, imo. I'd glad that Tari Tari is going in that direction, which I honestly wouldn't trust current Okada to take the show in.

[Vena]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

2. Ohana is the best character from either show, at least so far. Yes, even over Wien and Sawa.

Non-serious: I'll give you Sawa, but Wien? Any man who charms squirrels, chases down bicyclists in taxis, tackles said bicyclists, is a superhero, and "Is this a falsetto!" while speaking random German (and doing it well), is a veritable god.

And that's only five episodes in, just wait until he starts a fight with Megatron.

Serious: I want to say that, as of so far, Tari Tari has better (more balanced) characters all around, even in the extended cast where HSI really suffered with almost cartoonish portrayals on some of the characters that came and went from time to time. (Was there even a character to character resolution with the glasses girl? As far as I remember, she just poofed.) This is, usually, where I think Okada has the hardest time as a writer too: too many characters for her talents. Some writers can juggle large casts of snowflakes, some can't.

[Haak]

Are we doing this? Okay fine we're doing this.

Originally Posted by Vena

The tone and mood in HSI was all over the place within just the first five episodes. Its not the episodes in and of themselves were bad, it was that they were almost disconnected in feel. (And there we definitely some awkwardly forced in comedy skits that stuck out (Ep. 3 and 7 were pretty egregious), rather than comedy that flows naturally from the characters. Also, melodrama. )

I know a lot of people saw episode 3 as a mood shift, but no I didn't see it that way at all. I didn't notice anything at all and was surprised by all the comments afterwards. Disconnected? Not seeing it either. All the episodes were about Ohana's growing relationship with Kissuiso, whether it was the work or her coworkers. I saw a link, clear as day.

And comedy is a heavily subjective thing. Just because Okada is a bit more "zany" with her comedy doesn't make it bad. I loled at the bondage stuff and thought the survival gamers were hilarious.

Tari Tari has been largely consistent on the mood that the show is presenting. (I think this is on a large part because of how the music is handled, when you're working with an underlying musical theme, you tend to pay careful attention to the mood so as to best match the pieces played. In this way, its hard to lose track of the mood (for audience and writer alike) and you tend to have it actively on the mind of the writers and story boarders.) More, like I've said, the writers in this show are never wasting a moment of detail (lots of foreshadowing and allusions all over) with what their characters do or are shown, so there's a general air of careful attention (so far) behind each episode. Of course just these things don't make a good show great, but they are still there and we have a *just* good, uncompleted show on our hands right now.

All of which I agree with though I'd like to point out that the music and it's use is down to the Director and the Music director, both of which are exactly the same as HSI. And I don't think there's any less wasted moments in HSI.

[edit]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

It's just that there's certain aspects of Okada's writing style that are very fun to lampoon, in my view.

If that's all then fine, even I can join in on that but when it gets to frequent pot shots about a person's ability to write, then it gets old after a while.

Okada doesn't seem to want to write True Tears-style shows anymore.

I'm fine with more lighthearted/decompressed HSI-style shows every now and then, but really well-done serious drama is hard to come by in the anime world, imo. I'd glad that Tari Tari is going in that direction, which I honestly wouldn't trust current Okada to take the show in.

I do get what you're saying. I don't agree with it but I understand where you're coming and normally I'd be happy to accept that. It's just the fact that it's being constantly said over and over and over, that's getting to me.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Vena

Non-serious: I'll give you Sawa, but Wien? Any man who charms squirrels, chases down bicyclists in taxis, tackles said bicyclists, is a superhero, and "Is this a falsetto!" while speaking random German (and doing it well), is a veritable god.

And that's only five episodes in, just wait until he starts a fight with Megatron.

Serious: Wien is a great character, who's currently held back by nothing more than lack of screen-time.

Non-Serious: But then, perhaps that's because screens everywhere would crack from Chuck Norris Wien's awesomeness if he was on-screen any more than he is. Not to mention that Wakana would probably die from swooning if the Ultimate Red Ranger Wien was on more than he is.

[Vena]

Originally Posted by Haak

All of which I agree with though I'd like to point out that the msuic and it's use is down to the Director and the Music director, both of which are exactly the same as HSI. And I don't think there's any less wasted moments in HSI.

Music is up to the directors, sure enough, but the writers are the ones who have to actually end the show on a tone that matches said music. In this way the writers have to be conscious of the tone. HSI had good music arrangements too (that was never really a point of contention) but as the show progressed there were a lot of moments where the tone change from one episode to the next felt rather bizarre.

[Guardian Enzo]

The first time a show like this - very consistent and comfortably settled between silly and serious, between plot and time-wasting, between story and character-driven - tries to do "drama" is always scary. But TT did just fine - while the situation was hardly original, it was handled in a manner just dispassionate and detached enough to be effective. And the situation was laid out so that we'd get the gist of it without heavy-handed exposition.

In the end I think Wakana is tortured by two things – that she wasn’t nicer to her mother all along, and that she never properly apologized for that and said goodbye. That’s as universal a regret as you can imagine, and I found her decision to get rid of her piano and so many memories connected to her mother quite sad (seeing “useless” and “unneeded” written on them was especially effective, if not subtle). I also liked Keisuke’s helpless foundering as he tried to understand how his daughter was feeling nicely understated. It’s certainly no wonder Wakana is so reluctant to open herself up to anyone and especially to immerse herself in music again, considering the associations she has with it.

There are some frustrations here, and (big surprise) they mainly involve the gender imbalance of the narrative. Is it any wonder series like Tsuritama or AnoHana are held in such high esteem by viewers like me when they come along? When the two choices with reality-based ensemble shows about kids these days seem to be to either leave the boys out altogether or write as if they’re completely unimportant, the rare show that treats male characters as if they actually matter is something to be treasured. The frustrations are different here than with Kokoro Connect, and different with the two male cast members. Taichi at least gets treated as if his concerns (such as the most important tournament of his life) matter, though they’re inevitably wrapped up and discarded in a couple of minutes so the show can move on to more important matters. With Wien, he’s trivialized so pointedly that I’m beginning to think it’s intentional – he’s basically operating as the male moeblob so far (even getting eyecatch time), universally kind and haplessly inept, but given absolutely no substance whatsoever apart from tiny, tiny glimpses such as the pre-open this week. Maybe the optimist in me hopes this is building to something, but the realist in me expects that to be his lot in life for the entire series.

Perhaps the best hope for relevance for the boys here is the romance angle, which the series has thus far largely skated around. The flags between Sawa (the only girl who hasn’t had a deep background ep yet, so though her gender assures that will be rectified) and Taichi have now been hinted at too strongly to be coincidental. And though it’s largely because they share supplemental classes, Wien and Wakana continue to appear on-screen together often. Given that no one else has been able to reach her and Wien appears intent on trying, perhaps he’ll be the one to finally break through – and perhaps the vehicle in doing so will be her lost cat – we’ve already seen that Wien has a strong affinity for animals (that’s about as deep as we’ve gotten with him). It would certainly be a refreshing decision to have Wien rather than Konatsu or Sawa be the catalyst for Wakana's rebound and re-entry into music and social interaction.

[Midonin]

If we're going to keep to the Sentai metaphors, the important thing is that anyone in a Ranger series is part of a team. Which in this case, is obviously the Choir Club. Without everyone there, even a Red can fail.

[Vena]

Originally Posted by Midonin

If we're going to keep to the Sentai metaphors, the important thing is that anyone in a Ranger series is part of a team. Which in this case, is obviously the Choir Club. Without everyone there, even a Red can fail.

If we're going to keep up with the metaphors than the group is also going to fall apart and one will have to bring them back together. This might be a perfect way to round off Wien's "Sixth Ranger" feel: in the group but still not quite perfectly meshed unlike the others.

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

With Wien, he’s trivialized so pointedly that I’m beginning to think it’s intentional – he’s basically operating as the male moeblob so far (even getting eyecatch time), universally kind and haplessly inept, but given absolutely no substance whatsoever apart from tiny, tiny glimpses such as the pre-open this week. Maybe the optimist in me hopes this is building to something, but the realist in me expects that to be his lot in life for the entire series.

That would seem intentional. He is portrayed in many aspects as the would-be superhero, so he would expectedly be: universally kind, haplessly inept on the surface (which is certainly not true when he's serious, the show has shown us as much), and with a vaguely mysterious (unlike the rest of the cast) background.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Haak

All of which I agree with though I'd like to point out that the music and it's use is down to the Director and the Music director, both of which are exactly the same as HSI.

Just a small correction,while there's a massive amount of HSI staff members working on ithis it's not directed by HSI director Mashiro Ando but by Masakazu Hashimoto (who's also responsable for the screenplay) who worked on some HSI episodes as a storyboarder.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

Perhaps the best hope for relevance for the boys here is the romance angle, which the series has thus far largely skated around.

This is actually the main reason I'd like to see a bit of romance in this show. Sad to say, but I seriously think that it's the male characters only real shot at getting (almost) equal relevance with the female characters.

That being said, I honestly find the subtle approach being used so far pretty refreshing. A slow, gradual, naturalistic romance buildup might be nice to see, as long as it eventually arrives at something concrete.

[Somnus]

I enjoyed ep. 5 immensely. Not much to say that hasn't already been said, so I'll throw in some comments for emphasis.

I love how they tied in the flashbacks. It flowed nicely, didn't take away from the pacing of the episode, and developed emotion throughout slowly, but surely. Even though it was only through flashbacks, they successfully made me love and become attached to Wakana's mother. I couldn't get enough of her upbeat, and carefree nature. I found myself unbearably attached to that keychain at the end of it all, and it tugged at the old heartstrings when I saw Wakana let it go (especially for the wrong reasons, in my opinion).

On the other front, I like Taichi. The guy has his mind set on something, but doesn't let it get in the way of the rest of his life and the people in it. Can't help feeling slightly jealous though, knowing that Sawa may have started to notice him. Lucky bastard. The romance buff in me can do nothing but approve, however.

And Sawa still rocks. I can't get over how real she feels. Just from her character and the way she acts. I can easily relate her to a few of the women I know in life. Her lack of a deeply emotional/traumatizing past helps with that as well. Should she get one though, I doubt it would impact that feeling too much.

With Taichi, and Wakana taking the lead on the drama end of things, and Sawa in the middle; that leaves Konatsu and Wien to bring things back into lighthearted, and fun territory. Which they did successfully. Though Wien may have many mysteries about him, there's no reason not to like him either. Again, romance buff in me would like to see things develop with him and Wakana, but I can easily do without.

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

This is actually the main reason I'd like to see a bit of romance in this show. Sad to say, but I seriously think that it's the male characters only real shot at getting (almost) equal relevance with the female characters.

That being said, I honestly find the subtle approach being used so far pretty refreshing. A slow, gradual, naturalistic romance buildup might be nice to see, as long as it eventually arrives at something concrete.

Just to be clear, I'm perfectly fine without any romantic developments in TT on principle - I think it's possible to make a perfectly fine school life show without them. But if that's the only way to turn this 3-person ensemble into the 5-person ensemble I hoped we were getting, bring it on.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Vena

Music is up to the directors, sure enough, but the writers are the ones who have to actually end the show on a tone that matches said music. In this way the writers have to be conscious of the tone. HSI had good music arrangements too (that was never really a point of contention) but as the show progressed there were a lot of moments where the tone change from one episode to the next felt rather bizarre.

It was my generally opinion that the music is made to match the story rather than the other way round. But if you're talking about tone change...well... you already know my opinion on that.

Personally I thought HSI's music was consistently great, and i never noticed any problem. In contrast I never paid much attention to the music in Tari Tari until this episode and my thought then was "Wow, the music is a lot like HSI!".

Originally Posted by totoum

Just a small correction,while there's a massive amount of HSI staff members working on ithis it's not directed by HSI director Mashiro Ando but by Masakazu Hashimoto (who's also responsable for the screenplay) who worked on some HSI episodes as a storyboarder.

Oh I see. The "HSI without Okada" comments are probably what confused me.

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

With Wien, he’s trivialized so pointedly that I’m beginning to think it’s intentional – he’s basically operating as the male moeblob so far (even getting eyecatch time), universally kind and haplessly inept, but given absolutely no substance whatsoever apart from tiny, tiny glimpses such as the pre-open this week. Maybe the optimist in me hopes this is building to something, but the realist in me expects that to be his lot in life for the entire series.

I think they are building up to something. They're just doing a good job of fooling us.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Haak

Which seems to be happening all the time. Really I just wish the near constant HSI and Okada-bashing would stop already. It's clear other people have different opinions and it's kinda pointless to beat a dead horse. It may have been funny the first few hundred times but now it's just ridiculous. It's come to point where I can't even tell if Triple_R was being serious or not in his last post.

You're the one who brought up HSI though (Pocari talked about AnoHana). I happen to be among those who loved it, by the way (I even liked the most controversial episodes). It may have had its flaws but it was tremendously fun to watch thanks to the strong cast.

I still find the ridiculous Okada bashing funny, but that's probably because I'm on the right side of the fence. She is probably garnering more hate than she deserves but that's what makes it so funny to me.

I was indeed joking earlier. Well, half joking. I am indeed happy she is not in charge of this show.

[Dextro]

Originally Posted by Haak

It was my generally opinion that the music is made to match the story rather than the other way round. But if you're talking about tone change...well... you already know my opinion on that.

Personally I thought HSI's music was consistently great, and i never noticed any problem. In contrast I never paid much attention to the music in Tari Tari until this episode and my thought then was "Wow, the music is a lot like HSI!".

Funny you guys talk about the music: I personally thought that the tune used as background just before the credits, when the drama levels were at it's peak, slightly off for the mood of the scene. It felt just a tad too optimistic for what was clearly a scene of despair by Wakana. Though maybe I feel that way because it was a different, mellow version of the same song they've been using throughout the show and I subconsciously associate it with happier moments due to what happened on previous episodes.

[InfiniteDistance]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

Just to be clear, I'm perfectly fine without any romantic developments in TT on principle - I think it's possible to make a perfectly fine school life show without them. But if that's the only way to turn this 3-person ensemble into the 5-person ensemble I hoped we were getting, bring it on.

Even though I prefer this to not have any romance at all, I agree that at this point romance is probably the only thing that can make the male cast more relevant. Honestly though, at this point it seems a bit late. The only kind of 'chemistry' we've seen so far is probably Sawa and Tachi this episode, and it felt a bit forced. I'm also guessing that the badminton part has served () it's purpose now.

As for Wakana's drama, I thought that was handled pretty nicely and I do believe she's a worthy lead. I may be slightly partial though, having lost my mother as well and knowing how that clusterfuck of emotions can be a pretty hefty load.

As for Wien, how did he steal all your hearts? I find him pretty annoying, regardless of screentime..

[Vena]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

Just to be clear, I'm perfectly fine without any romantic developments in TT on principle - I think it's possible to make a perfectly fine school life show without them. But if that's the only way to turn this 3-person ensemble into the 5-person ensemble I hoped we were getting, bring it on.

The boys have good common ground with the girls once *problems* start coming out in earnest. Taichi is a bit in his own world of sorts but his competitive and driven spirit overlaps him well with Sawa (on the more obvious front through common interest in sports) but also with Konatsu (in that they both strive unilaterally to achieve their goal). Both girls were worried about him and see him at least as a friend, and interact with him frequently. The story is already pulling him in, what with half of this past episode being largely about his character's goals, his motivations, his interactions with others, and his successes and failures. We now have an ample spring board for him off of/with Sawa.

Wien is more of a Pandora's Box (and, like I said before, I think its intentional as his character, even on visual basics, is following a distinctly unique pattern from the other characters (even his male counterpart)) but he has the ability to go any which way. His affinity to animals may well lend to the finding of the missing cat or may come in to play with that rather important equus that Sawa keeps in her barn. His superhero nature can be applied to helping Wakana out of her rut, play off of Sawa's similar character strengths, or lead to more fun with Konatsu. What could be fun, in a sort of way, is if his character plays a sort of inverted role to Kokoro's Taichi: helps everyone but no one falls for him.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by InfiniteDistance

As for Wien, how did he steal all your hearts? I find him pretty annoying, regardless of screentime..

Wien is a very different sort of character for modern anime. A lot of that is his basic character concept - An ethnically Japanese person who lived outside of Japan for 12 years, and has to relearn the Japanese culture in a way that draws humorous contrasts between Wien's mistaken perception of Japan and Japan as it actually is. I just find this to be a character concept that's both fascinating and humorous.

There's also the fact that...

1) He's as far away from "emo" as you can get.
2) He's not a pervert.
3) He's not a deadpan snarker.
4) His purpose in life isn't getting knocked around by a tsundere.
5) He has a touch of sincere heroism to him.
6) He's as straight-laced as they come (and I very much doubt it's an act shrouding some deep, dark secret).

These six qualities alone make him very, very different than just about every male anime character today that I can think of. I just love how Wien avoids so many overused tropes for male anime characters.

It's nice to see an anime character that's truly outside the anime world's normal comfort range, imo.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Kanon

You're the one who brought up HSI though (Pocari talked about AnoHana).

I know but my comment that you menrioned was about me comparing Tari Tari to HSI. And I couldn't help but feel Pocari's comments were directed at me which put me on the edge. In hindsight I was probably just paranoid...

[Reckoner]

Sorry 5 episodes in and I have to say give me this any day of the week over the lump of mediocrity that was HSI. Unless you're a proud drinker of the Mari Okada kool-aid, it was literally impossible to enjoy large amounts of HSI which consisted solely of her humor and quirks and other shenanigans. I was not amused by that series, it wasn't just the perceived tonal change that happened at episode 3 but the sheer silliness and incomprehensible writing which took a complete dive.

Ambition is great if you know where you're going, but HSI just never seemed to have direction throughout much if its run. It was clumsy and all over the place without a great central focus to cohesively tie together the narrative in a more clean fashion. General ideas like "learning to love your work" were around sure, but often hamfisted in the most asinine or stupid ways which only served to undermine entire process in the end.

Tari Tari so far has been rather excellent. The execution is often amusing and hits all the right timings. It's understated and subtler drama techniques that are on full display this episode are really nice to watch. And so far there is literally no time wasting. This show is far more consistent, and more together than HSI ever was. Ironically the show that looked like a reject of HSI ended up being what HSI never really was.