Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[Rising Dragon]

Air resistance does matter, you're just still missing the point.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Air resistance does matter, you're just still missing the point.

Then what is it?

[Gundamx]

Didn't people release yet that Kira + freedom before shin fight = unlimited gameshark work?
(str = 99 / agi = 99 / def = 99 ...etc)

He can defeat any Ace in few seconds, dodge anything, move faster than anyone, leave the earth and go back to it anytime he want...etc

Kira: Logic? Screw logic! who need that when you have gameshark?

[Deadpool2000]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

*headdesk*

All the power in the world won't do anything if the Freedom's thrusters couldn't attain escape velocity. Given that no MS in any Gundam show has ever had the decency to be shown breaking the sound barrier, the Freedom is about 34 Machs short of hitting escape velocity.

Escape speed is only relevant for balistic trajectories. With thrusters, the speed of the object is considerably less relevant...

Still, while it was never STATED the Freedom couldn't leave Earth under its own power, it is certainly implied. Yes, it wouldn't have been as fast as the Kusanagi, but the scene and their worry implies that they would be shit out of luck if the Kusanagi left. Whereas this episode seems to imply they'd just get there late...

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Considering he clearly starts lagging behind and the radio starts to break up, I think he could only follow it up so high. Assuming he was going to go with them he would have had to grab onto the shuttle like he did Kusanagi.

I mean if Freedom could just leave the atmosphere as it pleased then there would have been no need to steal the shuttle in the first place. Kira could have just ferried Lacus up to where she needed to go in Freedom.

He flew up next to it, went back to pretty much the ground, shot some people, circled around, and caught it to it again...

He was moving MUCH faster than the Shuttle... Ridiculously so.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Deadpool2000

He was moving MUCH faster than the Shuttle... Ridiculously so.

Yes, it is ridiculous. And I think many of us here already answered your original question of how we think about it:

Originally Posted by Deadpool2000

Anyone find it weird how QUICKLY the Freedom catches up to the space shuttle? The implication in Seed is that it can't leave the atmosphere in this own power, but the implication here seems to be the complete opposite...

So, this matter is solved, yes?

[Aquaman OS]

Considering the shuttle has some kind of booster unit attached instead of using a mass driver. It's possible they dialed back the speed for a bit so he could catch up and chat. Or they hadn't gone full power yet. Once their conversation is over they quickly leave Freedom in the dust.

Again if Freedom could casually leave the atmosphere whenever they wouldn't have needed the shuttle in the first place, nor would they be so helpless several other times when they needed to head up to space, but seemingly could not.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Again if Freedom could casually leave the atmosphere whenever they wouldn't have needed the shuttle in the first place,

Lacus didn't want the Freedom to leave the Archangel.

nor would they be so helpless several other times when they needed to head up to space, but seemingly could not.

What other times did they need the Freedom to go to space on its own?

Also, if the Freedom could not go to space on its own, Kira would've latched on to the shuttle as soon as he caught up to the shuttle (and yes, from near the ground), but instead, Kira went ahead of the shuttle and chose to fly on his own until he decided not to go with the shuttle, then he slowed down the Freedom.

So yes, as ridiculous as it might seem, the implication is clear: the Freedom (at least by C.E.73) can go to space on its own power.

[Aquaman OS]

Earlier when they mentioned they had no way of knowing what was going on in space, with Athrun in Plant. And later when Djbril gets away and they just sit back and say there's nothing they can do about it now because AA isn't repaired yet, and later when Requiem goes off and they again say they'd like to help but will have to leave it to Zaft until AA is ready to go. They could have saved themselves the trouble if SF could just go chasing Djbril all the way to to space.

Lacus doesn't seem to have a problem with Kira leaving for a little while, since he does that here when he followed them, and he took Freedom to go see Athrun.

It would have been much much safer for Kira to take Lacus and Andy up to the meet up point, then head back to earth, while telling AA to stay put in their underwater hideaway. Then risk stealing a shuttle and getting killed, or at the very least annoucing to Durandal the real Lacus is up in space, which caused him to send guys looking for her and him to know that Lacus and Kira were seperated.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Earlier when they mentioned they had no way of knowing what was going on in space, with Athrun in Plant. And later when Djbril gets away and they just sit back and say there's nothing they can do about it now because AA isn't repaired yet, and later when Requiem goes off and they again say they'd like to help but will have to leave it to Zaft until AA is ready to go. They could have saved themselves the trouble if SF could just go chasing Djbril all the way to to space.

Those were not times where they needed the Freedom to go to space alone. Also, Kira was busy with Shinn and Rey when Djibril escape. And he's not about to go on a manhunt alone.

Lacus doesn't seem to have a problem with Kira leaving for a little while, since he does that here when he followed them, and he took Freedom to go see Athrun.

There's a difference between leaving while staying on Earth and leaving to space. I'm sure the Archangel was somewhere as near as they could be.

It would have been much much safer for Kira to take Lacus and Andy up to the meet up point, then head back to earth, while telling AA to stay put in their underwater hideaway. Then risk stealing a shuttle and getting killed, or at the very least annoucing to Durandal the real Lacus is up in space, which caused him to send guys looking for her and him to know that Lacus and Kira were seperated.

It might be, but that's not what Lacus chose to do. She didn't even want Kira to accompany them even though he was already there flying with them. And, again, the Freedom not being able to go to space was never a factor here.

[Rising Dragon]

Oh, for the love of god... it can't be done, okay? The Freedom could not go into space on its own power. It is technologically impossible, even more so with physics added in, thruster improvements or not!

But no.

You always gotta do this, monster. You defend the worst, most fucking nonsensical problems that SEED and Destiny presented. Why the hell can't you admit it fucked up on occasion?

[monster]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Oh, for the love of god... it can't be done, okay? The Freedom could not go into space on its own power. It is technologically impossible, even more so with physics added in, thruster improvements or not!

But no.

You always gotta do this, monster. You defend the worst, most fucking nonsensical problems that SEED and Destiny presented. Why the hell can't you admit it fucked up on occasion?

Because this is fiction. As long as it doesn't cause a huge inconsistency problem for the story, I don't have a problem accepting whatever it implies to be true for this fictional universe.

A really huge mistake would be like Mu being alive after SEED. And that, I have to begrudgingly accept, but I still don't like it.

But having to accept that some technology could enable the Freedom to go to space on its own? That's nothing.

[Rising Dragon]

But the thing is, you do defend it when it causes huge inconsistency problems! Like I said, no matter how AWFUL a point in SEED or Destiny is, you act like it's a flawless masterpiece!

[monster]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

But the thing is, you do defend it when it causes huge inconsistency problems! Like I said, no matter how AWFUL a point in SEED or Destiny is, you act like it's a flawless masterpiece!

No, I don't. Defending parts that I think is okay is not the same as saying the series itself is a masterpiece.

You worry me, sometimes, Rising, when discussing SEED/Destiny. Calm down, lol.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by monster

No, I don't. Defending parts that I think is okay is not the same as saying the series itself is a masterpiece.

You worry me, sometimes, Rising, when discussing SEED/Destiny. Calm down, lol.

I'm aggravated because we can't have a proper debate with you around, as you blindly defend nearly everything about SEED, including parts that can't, or should not, be defended.

As Kuroi has pointed out, physics does not allow the Freedom to ascend to space like you claim or believe. Nor does the technology. As Aquaman has pointed out, the show does show evidence that it could not achieve such a feat, as the shuttle outstrips its flight capabilities as far as atmospheric ascendance goes.

But you still blindly claim "Yes it can!" of grounds of "because it kept up for a bit and because Kira tried to follow". Kira tried to follow because of his feelings for Lacus. Love is irrational, and Kira has more than once changed his behavior out of love for someone.

And it's like this ALL THE TIME with you. If something doesn't make sense or just shouldn't freaking work like that, and someone comments on it, you're the first one there to say "But it does, so deal with it!"

And frankly I'm tired of it.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

As Kuroi has pointed out, physics does not allow the Freedom to ascend to space like you claim or believe. Nor does the technology.

Kuroi was babbling about escape velocity, which doesn't even apply in this scenario.

As Aquaman has pointed out, the show does show evidence that it could not achieve such a feat, as the shuttle outstrips its flight capabilities as far as atmospheric ascendance goes.

What does that even mean?

But you still blindly claim "Yes it can!" of grounds of "because it kept up for a bit and because Kira tried to follow". Kira tried to follow because of his feelings for Lacus. Love is irrational, and Kira has more than once changed his behavior out of love for someone.

Regardless of Kira's intention, and like I said before, if the Freedom could not reach space on its own, Kira would've latched on to the shuttle as soon as he reached it. But Kira did not just "kept up for a bit and tried to follow," he surpassed the shuttle and stayed ahead of it. There was no indication at all that he had reached the limit that the Freedom could go.

And it's like this ALL THE TIME with you. If something doesn't make sense or just shouldn't freaking work like that, and someone comments on it, you're the first one there to say "But it does, so deal with it!"

And frankly I'm tired of it.

Well, I guess I'm just a more tolerant audience towards fiction than some people.

By the way, I'm not saying you're wrong to think it's ridiculous for it to be able to do that. I'm saying that you're wrong to think that it can't do that just because it's ridiculous for it to be able to do that unless there is reason to believe, from the show itself, to think that it can't do it.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by monster

Kuroi was babbling about escape velocity, which doesn't even apply in this scenario.

It sure as hell does, because the Freedom can't achieve escape velocity.

Originally Posted by monster

What does that even mean?

It means the shuttle can escape the planet. The Freedom can't.

Originally Posted by monster

Regardless of Kira's intention, and like I said before, if the Freedom could not reach space on its own, Kira would've latched on to the shuttle as soon as he reached it. But Kira did not just "kept up for a bit and tried to follow," he surpassed the shuttle and stayed ahead of it. There was no indication at all that he had reached the limit that the Freedom could go.

If the Freedom had latched onto the shuttle, it likely would've had its arm torn off. You think the arm structure, from shoulder to wrist to finger joints, support the Freedom's entire weight? No. It'd need to reach speeds equal or greater than the shuttle's for the ENTIRE DURATION of the trip, and as we saw, it got left behind.

And if it could, then the whole need for the shuttle in the first place would've been redundant and and a massive unnecessary risk to Lacus's life. The only thing the scene you're referring to proved is that the Freedom can briefly accelerate faster than the shuttle, and as we saw it still couldn't keep up.

Originally Posted by monster

Well, I guess I'm just a more tolerant audience towards fiction than some people.

By the way, I'm not saying you're wrong to think it's ridiculous for it to be able to do that. I'm saying that you're wrong to think that it can't do that just because it's ridiculous for it to be able to do that unless there is reason to believe, from the show itself, to think that it can't do it.

There's a difference between being tolerant and being blindly devoted. You're being blindly devoted. I've only seen you criticize SEED's actions once, and admit to not being happy with one other instance, but I've also seen you defend pretty much every other bad practice used in the show.

As Aquaman pointed out, it's a huge inconsistency if the Freedom could escape the planet's gravitational pull. Like you JUST GOT DONE SAYING that you'd be against, if it was a huge inconsistency.

And you're defending it anyway.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

It sure as hell does, because the Freedom can't achieve escape velocity.

And that's irrelevant, because Freedom has propulsion. Escape velocity is only important for an object with no continuing propulsion.

It means the shuttle can escape the planet. The Freedom can't.

Not according to the show.

If the Freedom had latched onto the shuttle, it likely would've had its arm torn off. You think the arm structure, from shoulder to wrist to finger joints, support the Freedom's entire weight? No. It'd need to reach speeds equal or greater than the shuttle's for the ENTIRE DURATION of the trip, and as we saw, it got left behind.

Um, aren't you arguing that Freedom can't go into space on its own power? If it can't latch on to the shuttle, then there wouldn't even be any point in Kira trying to follow Lacus after the fact, regardless of his love for Lacus.

Also, it did not get left behind. Watch it again. Kira slowed down after he decided not to go with the shuttle.

And if it could, then the whole need for the shuttle in the first place would've been redundant and and a massive unnecessary risk to Lacus's life. The only thing the scene you're referring to proved is that the Freedom can briefly accelerate faster than the shuttle, and as we saw it still couldn't keep up.

And as I said, Lacus still rejected Kira's offer to go with them, so that's not an indication that the Freedom couldn't take her.

There's a difference between being tolerant and being blindly devoted. You're being blindly devoted. I've only seen you criticize SEED's actions once, and admit to not being happy with one other instance, but I've also seen you defend pretty much every other bad practice used in the show.

As Aquaman pointed out, it's a huge inconsistency if the Freedom could escape the planet's gravitational pull. Like you JUST GOT DONE SAYING that you'd be against, if it was a huge inconsistency.

And you're defending it anyway.

And I've already addressed the so-called inconsistency and why it's not an inconsistency.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by monster

And that's irrelevant, because Freedom has propulsion. Escape velocity is only important for an object with no continuing propulsion.

The Freedom having propulsion doesn't mean it can achieve escape velocity. It cannot. It does not have the thruster strength, and it does not have the fuel needed to achieve such a feat on its own power.

Originally Posted by monster

Not according to the show.

Um, aren't you arguing that Freedom can't go into space on its own power? If it can't latch on to the shuttle, then there wouldn't even be any point in Kira trying to follow Lacus after the fact, regardless of his love for Lacus.

Except that's exactly what did happen in the show. It couldn't keep up.

And it can't latch onto the shuttle because by doing so, it'd damage the Freedom and tear a fucking wing or something off of the shuttle, damaging or destroying it, endangering Lacus's life.

Originally Posted by monster

Also, it did not got left behind. Watch it again. Kira slowed down after he decided not to go with the shuttle. And as I said, Lacus still rejected Kira's offer to go with them, so that's not an indication that the Freedom couldn't take her. And I've already addressed the so-called inconsistency and why it's not an inconsistency.

No, you didn't. All you've done is ignore why it's an inconsistency. If the Freedom could do so, they would've used that to get Lacus safely into space, without risking her life by putting her into ZAFT territory to steal a shuttle from Durandal's spare. That in itself is the inconsistency--if they already had what they needed to get her to space, they wouldn't need to steal it to get her to space. So if the Freedom could do that on its own--inconsistency! So stop trying to defend it. To do otherwise just makes you a liar.

Look, how about this:

Prove to me that the Freedom slowed down. And prove to me that the Freedom ever went to space on its own power in the first place.

[Aquaman OS]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

If the Freedom had latched onto the shuttle, it likely would've had its arm torn off. You think the arm structure, from shoulder to wrist to finger joints, support the Freedom's entire weight? No. It'd need to reach speeds equal or greater than the shuttle's for the ENTIRE DURATION of the trip, and as we saw, it got left behind.

Actually no. Grabbing on should have worked. Freedom and Justice rode Kusanagi up the same way by holding onto it as it launched.

And that's exactly what I think Kira planned to do when he said he wanted to go with them, until Lacus said no.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Actually no. Grabbing on should have worked. Freedom and Justice rode Kusanagi up the same way by holding onto it as it launched.

And that's exactly what I think Kira planned to do when he said he wanted to go with them, until Lacus said no.

The Kusanagi was a much larger structure, able to support the Freedom's weight without tearing itself apart, and it also had more available purchases for it to put its weight into. The Freedom and Justice were able to stand on the structure as well as hold on with an arm or two. Meer's shuttle, on the other hand, did not have these same advantages.