[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 7 Requiem of the golden witch

[Renall]

For comedy: "Yasuda Battler (or Sento/Senri)" and Yasuda was Asumu's maiden name.

Hey, it could happen.

[Used Can]

Well, shit... That's true. It's like Battler really is Kinzo, just that instead of intending to fuck his daughter, he goes for his half sister! Well, it's either that, or his half aunt.

Anyway, isn't it said that Shannon's and Beatrice's tits were an illusion? I hadn't given that a thought until now, and I'm slightly depressed.

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by Oliver

Yasu is the bomber, and thus kills Battler while already being dead.

As argued previously, Yasu who is both the bomber and the "culprit", that is, the one who commits the observed murders, is highly irrational and very hard to forgive, which Battler nevertheless does. Numerous reasons for Yasu to be the bomber without any intent to kill anyone except the "culprit" exist, as I also listed above. Some of them are actually good reasons.

Mind restating them, or linking to the specific post? I seem to have missed it.

[Jan-Poo]

finally I finished reading EP7

there's a lot of things to say so I'll just write the most important opinions I have.


I believe that for the most part the story Cler narrated is Beatrice's true story. There a few things here and there that raises some reasonable doubts for generally it should be correct.
At the same time I believe that the tea party was for the most part a lie. Of course Bern had to create a very consistent story, and if even Will wasn't able to destroy it then it was well conceived from a mystery standpoint. However the mere fact that will uses quotation marks when refers to Bern's "truth" is a clear sign that we are not really supposed to think it's actually the truth.


Despite what everyone expected to see, shkanon was neither confirmed nor denied, however more hints are added in favor the theory.
The things that bothers me is that Beatrice's story basically skips the whole part related to Kanon and covers the truth with magic both in the case of Shannon's and Kanon's displacement in the story.
The first "world change" is easy to explain the second is a real puzzle. then again Kanon's existence must be closely related to Beatrice since apparently he doesn't exist in Lion's world.

Shannontrice is at this point 99% confirmed. I don't even think I need to go in detail.

Will's answers to the closed rooms mysteries suggest that in most cases the solution is simply that everything is an illusion. Some answers are very hard to understand, however that the chainlock of EP1 2nd twilight wasn't set in the first place and that the chapel's door in EP2 wasn't closed to begin with seem to be the most logical interpretations.
If that's the case then the fake serial murder plot involving almost all the relatives except Battler is the most likely scenario.

The last flashbacks that appear when the entrails of Cler are ripped off are probably very important.
that part where Beatrice asks Nanjo and Genji why they saved her if she had to live with a terrible injury is probably an important factor to understand her motives. that also seems the origin of the word "furniture". Less than human, that means probably that she has lost a body part.


I find it hard to accept that Beatrice2 is Kinzo's daughter. Not just because of the incest stuff. First off, it's unthinkable that Beatrice2 was almost identical to her mother if she was half asian. At any rate she shouldn't have neither blonde hair nor blue eyes. Maybe the hairs were dyed but eyes? contact lenses? That seems unlikely.
the other reason is that it was never actually stated that she is Kinzo's daughter. Nanjo only says that later a child was born. More importantly Bern laughing evilishly tells Lion that he is at the same time Kinzo's child and Beatrice's grandchild.
Am I the only one that think that Bern wouldn't have missed the chance to tell him that he was at the same time Kinzo's child and Kinzo's grandchild if that was true?

Anyway I don't deny that the odds that indeed Beatrice3 shares 75% of her genes with Kinzo are high.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by TehChron

Mind restating them, or linking to the specific post? I seem to have missed it.

That's why I hate forums, everyone always says "use search" and it never bloody works well.

Possible reasons to blow up the island with good (or at least morally acceptable if vigilante justice is) intentions: http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=3207814 and further down. I can think of more.

Arguments why the bomber and the culprit are different people should be obvious: If you want to kill everyone, the bomb is your best weapon, trying to kill people one by one might make them explore, preventing people from running away from the bomb is trivial if you can pull the closed rooms seen. If you want to use the bomb as a failure time limit on epitaph solution, if you want people to solve the epitaph, killing them is counterproductive. If you don't want them to solve the epitaph but want them to try, killing them before the time limit is simply not sporting.

Someone who combines the roles of bomber and culprit is not behaving rationally, and to be honest, is pointlessly sadistic. So far, nobody has offered a reason to do it for Beatrice other than "I hate my life and want to die, but killing people in gruesome and bewildering ways before that might make Battler remember me and forget all those people I killed to make him remember the horrible sin of making me love him."

No, really, understanding does not necessarily mean forgiving, and you don't write love letters with the blood of other people in polite society either.

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by Oliver

That's why I hate forums, everyone always says "use search" and it never bloody works well.

Possible reasons to blow up the island with good (or at least morally acceptable if vigilante justice is) intentions: http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=3207814 and further down. I can think of more.

Arguments why the bomber and the culprit are different people should be obvious: If you want to kill everyone, the bomb is your best weapon, trying to kill people one by one might make them explore, preventing people from running away from the bomb is trivial if you can pull the closed rooms seen. If you want to use the bomb as a failure time limit on epitaph solution, if you want people to solve the epitaph, killing them is counterproductive. If you don't want them to solve the epitaph but want them to try, killing them before the time limit is simply not sporting.

Someone who combines the roles of bomber and culprit is not behaving rationally, and to be honest, is pointlessly sadistic. So far, nobody has offered a reason to do it for Beatrice other than "I hate my life and want to die, but killing people in gruesome and bewildering ways before that might make Battler remember me and forget all those people I killed to make him remember the horrible sin of making me love him."

No, really, understanding does not necessarily mean forgiving, and you don't write love letters with the blood of other people in polite society either.

Alright, I see where you're going with this, and am in agreement with you.

So that just means the issue here is "who is the true culprit?" We've come up with plausible, even likely methods of executing the crimes. Each individual has a possible motive (especially Nanjo, with his legendary grudge against those who defeat him in board games, avenging himself first against the one who harmed his reputation for invincibility, and then by eliminating their entire families), so there's a plethora of "whydunnits", so now we need to hash out the possible "whodunnits", I guess.

I think ive made my personal opinion clear about the "whodunnit" already

[Jan-Poo]

Or the whydunnit you came up with really valid?

Will really stressed out how important it is to not take lightly someone's heart.
To simply say that "person X did it for money" is kinda shallow. That seemed to be the thing that mostly ticked Will off about Bern's "truth".

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Or the whydunnit you came up with really valid?

Will really stressed out how important it is to not take lightly someone's heart.
To simply say that "person X did it for money" is kinda shallow. That seemed to be the thing that mostly ticked Will off about Bern's "truth".

Yes, well, Will isn't Word of God. But the point is that there's a lot of potential motives, with most of the characters having their own reason to potentially commit murder (death by mackerel! )

[Jan-Poo]

Maybe Will really is the word of God in this case, if you consider that the writer is the god of his own novel and that whole deal about the importance of the whydunnit that repeated itself over and over in this episode is probably a message from Ryuukishi.

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I find it hard to accept that Beatrice2 is Kinzo's daughter. Not just because of the incest stuff. First off, it's unthinkable that Beatrice2 was almost identical to her mother if she was half asian. At any rate she shouldn't have neither blonde hair nor blue eyes. Maybe the hairs were dyed but eyes? contact lenses? That seems unlikely.
the other reason is that it was never actually stated that she is Kinzo's daughter. Nanjo only says that later a child was born. More importantly Bern laughing evilishly tells Lion that he is at the same time Kinzo's child and Beatrice's grandchild.
Am I the only one that think that Bern wouldn't have missed the chance to tell him that he was at the same time Kinzo's child and Kinzo's grandchild if that was true?

The problem with the hair is Young Kinzo himself. Arguably if he had white hair his genes could be very non dominant (not to mention no one else has white hair young in his family for instance). Still I do think that's right. I have another thing to add.

Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems that it says something along the lines of (Beato2) "she grew up to look exactly like her mother". Doesn't that imply that she didn't "start" as Beato 2 and "became" so as she grew up to ressemble her mother? In that case she'd probably need a real, more former name, and be less bothered by her identity, not to mention hardly be able to believe she's really a sealed away witch.

Don't think anything would clearly rule out Beato 1 having a child from another man, possibly being already pregnant when she met Kinzo. After all Kinzo had the rest of his children with another woman.

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Maybe Will really is the word of God in this case, if you consider that the writer is the god of his own novel and that whole deal about the importance of the whydunnit that repeated itself over and over in this episode is probably a message from Ryuukishi.

Well, Kyrie also has a nasty habit of being killed off. So logically one could say that her own weak and narrow-scoped motive in addition to that detail can eliminate her as the true culprit.

I personally consider her more of a red herring myself in the first place.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by TehChron

I think ive made my personal opinion clear about the "whodunnit" already

I still think it's simply more complicated than that. It feels to me like there are several prearranged scenarios (none of which actually involve murder) running in parallel and producing interference patterns depending on how the early opening events of those scenarios collide, and the actual culprit works in the opportunity holes provided by that interference. It's not so much a culprit's plan to murder everyone, but a culprit's chance to do so, and pin the murder on someone else. The murders happen when Battler returns because one of those plans starts when Battler returns and in no other case. The other plan starts in 1986 and in no other year, for a completely independent reason. If Battler returned a year earlier or a year later, interference would not have happened and the tragedy would be avoided.

The reason for thinking that is that I am more and more convinced that in particular, the epitaph solution party described in the first letter Beatrice sends actually has nothing to do with murder, real or simulated. Every time I bring up the idea that it's an independent plot and point at the text of the letter, everyone just glazes over it but offers no counterarguments, which probably means I'm on the right track.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Maybe Will really is the word of God in this case, if you consider that the writer is the god of his own novel and that whole deal about the importance of the whydunnit that repeated itself over and over in this episode is probably a message from Ryuukishi.

My God, are we finally agreeing 100% about an episode? This is unprecedented.

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by Oliver

I still think it's simply more complicated than that. It feels to me like there are several prearranged scenarios (none of which actually involve murder) running in parallel and producing interference patterns depending on how the early opening events of those scenarios collide, and the actual culprit works in the opportunity holes provided by that interference. It's not so much a culprit's plan to murder everyone, but a culprit's chance to do so, and pin the murder on someone else. The murders happen when Battler returns because one of those plans starts when Battler returns and in no other case. The other plan starts in 1986 and in no other year, for a completely independent reason. If Battler returned a year earlier or a year later, interference would not have happened and the tragedy would be avoided.

The reason for thinking that is that I am more and more convinced that in particular, the epitaph solution party described in the first letter Beatrice sends actually has nothing to do with murder, real or simulated. Every time I bring up the idea that it's an independent plot and point at the text of the letter, everyone just glazes over it but offers no counterarguments, which probably means I'm on the right track.

Even so, there has to be an entity which is aware of all of these plots occurring simultaneously in order to take advantage of those openings.

Shkannon would fit this role. Its also entirely possible that there is only one plot that has murder as its initial goal, and another entirely which only kills as a reaction to the true culprits actions.

[Renall]

The person who knows about every plot (Nanjo) need not be the person actually doing the killings (Nanjo), he or she just has to be useful enough (Nanjo) and easily-coerced enough (Nanjo) to spill the beans to anyone who might prove threatening (Nanjo). Someone who remains active long enough to talk (Nanjo).

I wonder who fits those circumstances.

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by Renall

The person who knows about every plot (Nanjo) need not be the person actually doing the killings (Nanjo), he or she just has to be useful enough (Nanjo) and easily-coerced enough (Nanjo) to spill the beans to anyone who might prove threatening (Nanjo). Someone who remains active long enough to talk (Nanjo).

I wonder who fits those circumstances.

Yes, but I honestly dont see a scenario where the Krauss would willingly play both sides like that, hell, I dont see Krauss even being competent enough to pull off such a juggling act.

Edit: In all seriousness, just substitute Nanjo for Krauss in the above rant.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by TehChron

Yes, but I honestly dont see a scenario where the Krauss would willingly play both sides like that, hell, I dont see Krauss even being competent enough to pull off such a juggling act.

And that is why, exactly? Because of an unconfirmed scene in Ep5? Because he can punch out Cthulhu? Because he manages to shut up his three siblings in Ep1 by simply reminding them about why they came to him?

You don't "see" Krauss.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

The problem with the hair is Young Kinzo himself. Arguably if he had white hair his genes could be very non dominant (not to mention no one else has white hair young in his family for instance). Still I do think that's right. I have another thing to add.

No Kinzo had definitely black hair at that time. the white hairs you see is just a visual effect.

the reason I am 100% sure that Kinzo had black hairs, as he should, is the comment that Beatrice makes after Kinzo jokingly says that Beatrice's hair are of the same color of pasta. Beatrice says that then all japanese hairs are like "spaghetti al nero di seppia" which are black because of the squid's black ink.
Clearly if Kinzo really had white hairs that joke would be kinda strange.

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Don't think anything would clearly rule out Beato 1 having a child from another man, possibly being already pregnant when she met Kinzo. After all Kinzo had the rest of his children with another woman.

I think the most likely scenario is that Beatrice Castiglioni was already pregnant when she met Kinzo.

Originally Posted by Renall

My God, are we finally agreeing 100% about an episode? This is unprecedented.

Hey this is just one thing over a lot of stuff said in a whole episode! We probably disagree about everything else.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Oliver

And that is why, exactly? Because of an unconfirmed scene in Ep5? Because he can punch out Cthulhu? Because he manages to shut up his three siblings in Ep1 by simply reminding them about why they came to him?

You don't "see" Krauss.

Episode 5 basically confirmed what Krauss had been saying all along to the siblings from the begnning. He has no reason to lie about that, especially not at the stage we're in.

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by Oliver

And that is why, exactly? Because of an unconfirmed scene in Ep5? Because he can punch out Cthulhu? Because he manages to shut up his three siblings in Ep1 by simply reminding them about why they came to him?

You don't "see" Krauss.

THAT IS BECAUSE I HAVE NO LOVE!



Anyway,

Episode 5 basically confirmed what Krauss had been saying all along to the siblings from the begnning. He has no reason to lie about that, especially not at the stage we're in.

Basically this. And even if that had been all a smokescreen, the waiting game still benefits Krauss in the long run. He has no reason to murder and thus draw suspicion to himself.

Heh, by the logic you would use to implicate Krauss, you could also say Eva really was the culprit.