Ore no Imouto - Episode 12 (TV ENDING) Discussion / Poll

[potchip]

Anime only end is trying to have cake and eat it whilst waiting for financial result to justify another season (and when the source material has enough meat for another one)

It is closed in the sense the key relationship seems to have changed. It is also open ended seeing life-conselling is not yet done. If there was a new season, Kirino will mostly likely revert back to her old self(it's the whole gag folks!). I attribute her changed behaviour due to the time pressure from her impending departure so she tried to pack all dere in the last couple days. But now that she's made the decision, she got plenty of time to be dere (that is, maybe 3 times in the next 20 years lol)

The extra episodes will likely using material of the LN that were excluded in the anime due to the alternate development (ie 2nd half of Vol5). Either way the ending of the extra episodes or the current 'good end' can lead into a second season if the money materialises.

I'd say 7/10 for the series (LN is probably 8/10 at the moment)

[FBZ]

I'm very confused. So there's going to be extra episodes? Will there be a second season?

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by FBZ

I'm very confused. So there's going to be extra episodes? Will there be a second season?

Please consult this convenient sticky thread for more information.

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by DasDingus

My confusion was over Kyouske going out to buy the eroge in the first place. The reasoning behind his acceptance of Akagi's excuse was fairly straightforward.

Because he was hit with this:

Spoiler for Kirino:

As some would say, "Hnnnnnnnnnnnnnnggghhhhh"

As for the episode itself, I found it hilarious but with some definite pacing issues towards the ending. I enjoyed how the episode started with a similar event to Kyousuke and Kirino's encounter in episode 1 and the cautiousness he showed to Kirino's shift in demeanor towards him. The most comedic scene was definitely Kyousuke running into Akagi, I couldn't help but laugh at the girls clapping because of Akagi's declaration of his love for "homo eroge's"

And I must say, I have to agree with DasDingus on Kyousuke being just as tsundere towards Kirino as she is to him. It certainly makes sense if we consider Kyousuke's unusual happiness at Kirino deciding to stay and of course, the decision to continue the "life counseling" sessions.

This ending sure does leave a lot to be desired though. I hope they decide to make a second season because this certainly was an entertaining series.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Maybe he is, but I don't think that this episode proves it. Honestly, I would have reacted more or less just as he did, if I was in his shoes. When you get used to a person behaving a certain way, and that person does an almost complete 180 in their behavior for no apparent reason, that will make you stand up and notice and wonder what might be driving it. Most, if not all, of what Kyousuke did in this episode, can be chalked up to that.

The part that makes me think he's tsundere is not the one you're talking about,it's the scene when both of them are arguing,he keeps telling her "go" when really he wants her to stay,at first you could say maybe he didn't understand that kirino also wants to stay,but after hearing that part of the eroge game that accidently started playing,even he understands that kirino wants him to say "don't go",and he doesn't want her to go,but still insists on telling her go.
That scene was pretty much a battle of who would out tsundere eachother.

I really have had a hard time standing kirino's tsun tsun antics but that wasn't the case this episode.I mean,she's made efforts to be nice (it's pretty clear that being nice to him is a constant effort, a "thank you" still sounds pretty forced,but a least the intention is there),she made him watch her play a game and chose a route where brother and sister would be separated,when he didn't find it sad,she explained to him why she thought it was,so she's dropping "hints" hoping he'll get it and ask her to stay,but he doesn't.Personaly i'd slap him and kick him too!

[Dr. Casey]

Originally Posted by totoum

she made him watch her play a game and chose a route where brother and sister would be separated,when he didn't find it sad,she explained to him why she thought it was,so she's dropping "hints" hoping he'll get it and ask her to stay,but he doesn't.

Huh... Kyosuke's not the only one who missed the hint; it never occured to me at all that that's part of the reason she got annoyed (Or why she chose that particular route in the first place). Nice insight there.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

It certainly makes sense if we consider Kyousuke's unusual happiness at Kirino deciding to stay and of course, the decision to continue the "life counseling" sessions.

How is that tsundere?

Isn't being so open about your feelings the very opposite of tsundere?

He was glad that his sister didn't go to America, so that he can spend more time with her. Does every guy that feels that away about his sister, over a similar situation, a tsundere?

Originally Posted by totoum

The part that makes me think he's tsundere is not the one you're talking about,it's the scene when both of them are arguing,he keeps telling her "go" when really he wants her to stay,at first you could say maybe he didn't understand that kirino also wants to stay,but after hearing that part of the eroge game that accidently started playing,even he understands that kirino wants him to say "don't go",and he doesn't want her to go,but still insists on telling her go.

He was upset that she said "You don't like me, and I don't like you". The beginning of her tsuntsun relapse pissed him off, basically.

"Well, if you're going to be like that, then by all means, go to America." - That's the basic idea I was getting from Kyousuke after Kirino went tsuntsun on him again.


Here's what I think is Kyousuke's feelings towards Kirino:

1. He has a profound sense of responsibility, when it comes to his younger sister. He clearly sees it as his "older brother" role to look out for his younger sister, and to always do right by her.

2. That being said, he sincerely doesn't like her tsuntsun tendencies, and they've recently started to really grate on him (which prompts him to actually stand up for himself, against Kirino, in Episodes 9 and 11). This is also part of the reason why he expressed his dislike for his sister to Kuroneko back in Episode 8.

3. Even though he's glad to see Kirino become more deredere (in this episode and in the last), he's still wondering "What's going on here? Why is she acting so different than usual?" I think that him reflecting upon his argument with Kirino over her going to America (and her ultimately deciding not to go) makes it finally "click" for him, and he's starting to see the tsuntsun mask as just that - a mask, hiding her true affection for her brother.

4. Learning of this, the guy's naturally happy. His sister, in her heart, is not the monstrous person that he probably thought she was. Instead, she actually likes him, which he takes comfort in.

For Kyousuke to be a tsundere for his sister, it would mean that he doesn't like to admit that he cares about her. But what I think is truly going on here is that he doesn't want people to think that he actually cares for tsuntsun Kirino... but if she acts nicely, then sure, then he's fine openly showing he cares for her. In other words, it's all about how she treats him. If she treats him very poorly, he probably thinks "People must think I'm crazy for doing so much for her, and for caring about her in a brotherly way". However, if she treats him well (and he thinks it's "for real") then he feels comfortable showing caring and concern for her.

I really have had a hard time standing kirino's tsun tsun antics but that wasn't the case this episode.I mean,she's made efforts to be nice (it's pretty clear that being nice to him is a constant effort, a "thank you" still sounds pretty forced,but a least the intention is there),she made him watch her play a game and chose a route where brother and sister would be separated,when he didn't find it sad,she explained to him why she thought it was,so she's dropping "hints" hoping he'll get it and ask her to stay,but he doesn't.Personaly i'd slap him and kick him too!

I disagree somewhat. For me, I really saw a major change come over Kyousuke when Kirino said "You don't like me, and I don't like you!". I could just sense that the moment Kirino said that, Kyousuke was thinking 'Not this tsuntsun crap again! I have had it up to here with this! If this is what she's going to be like, then she can go off to America!'

I think that Kyousuke wants Kirino to stop playing the tsundere game, and to just shoot straight with him. I saw that a lot in his conversation with her in her bedroom, where he'd keep saying (more or less), "Ok, so what is this all about? Just tell me, and get straight to the point".

Kyousuke is actually a very forthright and straightforward guy. He doesn't like to beat around the bush, or try to read hidden motives into everything.

[relentlessflame]

@Triple_R:
The issue isn't with why he and Kirino got into an argument about it (they were both escalating the situation in about equal measure), but it's what he said after the "big reveal" from the game that was the telling bit. That was his chance to be honest, but he still chose the indirect route rather than telling her how he felt. He was being just as stubborn as she was, and given the obvious opportunity, he didn't budge. Maybe he had a good reason to still tell her to go to America, but he chose to express it in a way that was intended to make him look uncompromising. But, at the end of the day, I guess it worked out anyway.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

For Kyousuke to be a tsundere for his sister, it would mean that he doesn't like to admit that he cares about her. But what I think is truly going on here is that he doesn't want people to think that he actually cares for tsuntsun Kirino... but if she acts nicely, then sure, then he's fine openly showing he cares for her. In other words, it's all about how she treats him. If she treats him very poorly, he probably thinks "People must think I'm crazy for doing so much for her, and for caring about her in a brotherly way". However, if she treats him well (and he thinks it's "for real") then he feels comfortable showing caring and concern for her.

Doesn't this episode itself disprove that point? Kirino is in fact being nice to him for a change, and he's all suspicious. When Saori confronts him about caring for Kirino, he denies it. This is when she's being nice, not when she's treating him badly at all, and they're talking about the last time they met when she was being just as nice. She provided him with evidence that Kirino was in fact not coerced into the party at all, but was actively involved with it. If anything, this would be the time to to admit he cares for her according to your above theory. Actually, I think it's a lot easier for him to pretend he doesn't care for her when she's being "tsuntsun" towards him because it gives him an excuse. But when she's actually being nice, he doesn't know how to react.

I don't know if he's necessary "tsundere"... but I do think he's as stubborn as she is, and neither one of them want to come right out and admit their feelings. So they have to continue to play these roundabout games with each other while things become increasingly obvious to everyone else around them (and each other, in secret). And the reason why he's happy at the very end is precisely the same -- saying the counselling isn't over is an excuse for them to continue their "roundabout games" without either of them having to really sacrifice their pride and admit that they might not hate each other after all.

[Guardian Enzo]

Series and finale review blogged, and rather long so I won't hog space here. Suffice to say I loved about 15 minutes of the finale, but the last third or so kind of left me cold. Wrapping up one ending and setting up another is an awful lot of work, and even if that timeline is going to diverge after episode 11 the impact was still felt here, I thought.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

@Triple_R:
The issue isn't with why he and Kirino got into an argument about it (they were both escalating the situation in about equal measure), but it's what he said after the "big reveal" from the game that was the telling bit.

He said "Go. Do what you want!" (i.e. Only do what you truly want to do. If that's go to America, then do it! If that's stay with mom, dad, and me, then do that.)

He's not going to try to read between the lines with her. He's tired of that. So instead of trying to read between the lines, he just tells her to "Do what you want (whatever that really is)".

Again, he wants her to take actions that are honest and genuinely reflective of her feelings.

If she truly wants to go, then she should go. If she'd rather stay, then she should say.

That was his chance to be honest, but he still chose the indirect route rather than telling her how he felt.

He was perfectly honest in telling her to "Do what she wants". Don't play games anymore, in other words. Just make honest choices based on sincere feelings and goals.

Doesn't this episode itself disprove that point?

No it doesn't.

Just last episode, when Kirino put on that show of apology and thanks to Kyousuke, he actually broke down into tears and patted her on the head.

Why?

Because Kirino was finally being nice to him for a change, and he liked it, and he probably considered it sincere on her part (given the weight of her words and the way she carried herself in general).

That was pleasing to Kyousuke in two ways:

1. Kirino was being nice to him for a change
2. Kirino was being honest and open about her feelings for a change.

And as such, Kyousuke then felt comfortable showing caring and concern for her.

Kirino is in fact being nice to him for a change, and he's all suspicious.

Just because it's out of character for her (and not prompted by a need to apologize since that was taken care of last episode).

When Saori confronts him about caring for Kirino, he denies it.

He denies that he is concerned about her acting nice, per se. He probably wants to know what's causing it, so that whatever it is, they can keep it up, as I wrote before.

This is when she's being nice, not when she's treating him badly at all, and they're talking about the last time they met when she was being just as nice. She provided him with evidence that Kirino was in fact not coerced into the party at all, but was actively involved with it. If anything, this would be the time to to admit he cares for her according to your above theory. Actually, I think it's a lot easier for him to pretend he doesn't care for he when she's being "tsuntsun" towards him because it gives him an excuse. But when she's actually being nice, he doesn't know how to react.

When she's being nice, and he's confident that it's "for real", then he's fine openly showing caring and concern for her. He did that last episode, and he did that with his blissful look at the end of this episode.

I don't know if he's necessary "tsundere"... but I do think he's as stubborn as she is, and neither one of them want to come right out and admit their feelings.

Actually, he kind of came out and admitted his feelings last episode. He showed real emotion and thanks for what she did there.

So they have to continue to play these roundabout games with each other while things become increasingly obvious to everyone else around them (and each other, in secret). And the reason why he's happy at the very end is precisely the same -- saying the counselling isn't over is an excuse for them to continue their "roundabout games" without either of them having to really sacrifice their pride and admit that they might not hate each other after all.

Nah, that's not it. He's happy because he now knows that she genuinely likes him as her brother, that his relationship with her has been restored to a considerable degree, and that he will get to spend more time with her.

He doesn't like the roundabout games. But he does like the idea of a close relationship with a sweet, sincere sister. Remember the dream he had at the very start of this anime? The one with the "cute sister"? That's what he'd like Kirino to be like. He's happy that she might be much closer to that than he thought.


Edit: If pride was that big an issue for either of them, Kirino would not have done what she did in Episode 11, and Kyousuke would not have broke down into tears over it and patted her on the head.

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

How is that tsundere?

Isn't being so open about your feelings the very opposite of tsundere?

He was glad that his sister didn't go to America, so that he can spend more time with her. Does every guy that feels that away about his sister, over a similar situation, a tsundere?

It's tsundere because I was pointing out the dere and not the tsun His unusual happiness came because Kirino decided to stay regardless of the fact that he didn't tell her that he wanted her to stay when they were in Kirino's room. Why did Kyousuke tell her that she should just go when in fact he was truly unhappy with that decision? Because he's a tsundere I believe it's fairly obvious that Kyousuke was not being honest if you take his happy demeanor into consideration.

Let's not overgeneralize things here since we're talking about Kyousuke and Kirino. We've had the chance to analyze these characters for quite a while now, and Kyousuke isn't honest about his feelings towards Kirino all the time.

[omimon]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

Series and finale review blogged, and rather long so I won't hog space here. Suffice to say I loved about 15 minutes of the finale, but the last third or so kind of left me cold. Wrapping up one ending and setting up another is an awful lot of work, and even if that timeline is going to diverge after episode 11 the impact was still felt here, I thought.

In the blog you keep saying that what you think will happen in the true end is the same as what everyone else thinks but you never got into it. So my question is what do you think will happen in the true end? Also what about those questions you raised at the end of the episode 12 entry?

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

It's tsundere because I was pointing out the dere and not the tsun

Dere alone doesn't make a tsundere any more than tsun alone does.

His unusual happiness came because Kirino decided to stay regardless of the fact that he didn't tell her that he wanted her to stay when they were in Kirino's room.

He didn't say that because he wanted her to make the choice that she wanted to make, whatever that was. That's why he said "Do what you want!"

"Do what you want!" is very much the sort of line you say to somebody that you're really tired of seeing play games (such as reverse psychology) with you. It's actually a classic romance drama line, where one partner gets exasperated with the other partner not being totally honest and upfront with him or her.

Why did Kyousuke tell her that she should just go when in fact he was truly unhappy with that decision? Because he's a tsundere

No, because he'd be willing to sacrifice his own happiness for her sake (dude's been doing that the entire anime ). He doesn't want to completely rule out the possibility that she really does want to go to America.

I believe it's fairly obvious that Kyousuke was not being honest if you take his happy demeanor into consideration.

Let's not overgeneralize things here since we're talking about Kyousuke and Kirino. We've had the chance to analyze these characters for quite a while now, and Kyousuke isn't honest about his feelings towards Kirino all the time.

Actually, I think he's pretty honest. His feelings for Kirino come out garbled and very mixed, but that's because his sense of brotherly responsibility struggles against his genuine annoyance at Kirino's tsuntsun tendencies. Furthermore, he'd like to have a sincerely sweet sister, but it's only with the end of this episode that he thinks that Kirino could be that person.

[Reckoner]

Alright, I rate this episode a........................ drum roll................................... a 7/10!

I'm sure that will come as a shock to many of you. Much to contrary belief, I am not a troll.

It was in fact a decent, good episode. Unfortunately this is not a series concluder (-1 for trying to make this an ending). Honestly, if I erased the episodes since episode 7 in my head, this would be a nice episode 7 .

Kirino's demeanor reflected how she should have been acting, character development wise, after episode 5. I actually was not angry at her this entire episode almost.

Note: I'm in some nirvana like state of calmness after watching the Haruhi movie, so it may have impacted my viewing, though not dramatically.

[Soconfused]

mmm, I honestly didn't like the episode too much, it was sort of all over the place, and what the hell was in the album? I really want to know, I was expecting she took pictures of him decretly or something as they grew up....

anyways, really sad to see the series "end". It's been my guilty pleasure of the season, don't usually watch anime like this, if I hadn't read some of the manga before hand I probably would of never checked out the anime, glad I did, even with the constant gag reactions, ect, from my friends. The characters were all fantastic, though it could of used some more char development, maybe I'll check out the light novel.

I eagerly await the last few episodes, though if the sticky date is true, it seems so far away, I might have moved on by then. (not to say i wouldn't watch them, but I wouldn't feel as strongly for the show as I do now.)

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by omimon

In the blog you keep saying that what you think will happen in the true end is the same as what everyone else thinks but you never got into it. So my question is what do you think will happen in the true end? Also what about those questions you raised at the end of the episode 12 entry?

Well, the wincest route. It seems no secret that most of the posters here expect it, and even I - having only the anime to go on - see a lot of handwriting on the wall. I hope it doesn't happen, but I know it's a strong possibility at the bare minimum.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

He denies that he is concerned about her acting nice, per se. He probably wants to know what's causing it, so that whatever it is, they can keep it up, as I wrote before.

No, Saori specifically says "Well, it's natural for you to be concerned about your sister" (no reference to her acting nice or this specific situation). He blushes, and then fervently denies it. It's a denial of caring for her, not related to this particular concern. This is, in fact, very typical "tsundere" behaviour (and not unlike the behaviour their dad exhibits); I'd say it runs in the family.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

He said "Go. Do what you want!" (i.e. Only do what you truly want to do. If that's go to America, then do it! If that's stay with mom, dad, and me, then do that.)

He was perfectly honest in telling her to "Do what she wants". Don't play games anymore, in other words. Just make honest choices based on sincere feelings and goals.

No, that's not the meaning or intonation of what's said. If it were, why do you think Kirino would be so upset? Her reaction was immediate anger after he said the second sentence. If it were that meaning of "do what you want", it would have been 勝手にしろ and wouldn't have needed the "go" on the front end. He's not giving up and telling her to make her own decision by any means. I am wondering if there's perhaps a better translation for what he said, because your reading of it has changed the insinuation.

Edit: I am thinking that what he's saying here is 行けよ！清々するは！, which is more like "Go on! I'll feel better (relieved) when you do!"... which would definitely explain Kirino's reaction. The problem is that sentence lacks a clear subject, so if you just take it on its own you could take it as "Do what makes you feel better" (or "Do as you like"), but that doesn't make sense in context of what else is going on. We'll have to wait for other translations to see how they render it, but I think the tone and reaction tell the story.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Edit: If pride was that big an issue for either of them, Kirino would not have done what she did in Episode 11, and Kyousuke would not have broke down into tears over it and patted her on the head.

Did you not notice how much work it took to break down Kirino's pride? It took a whole ton of anger, prodding, time running out, and the threat of him leaving for her to finally let go. And he was so taken aback by the "ambush" that he broke down because he wasn't expecting her to be grateful -- he was doing it out of a sense of duty and had long since given up on thanks. Once the wall was down, sure, he was able to reciprocate. But that doesn't mean he's all of a sudden going to be able to admit that he loves her any more than she can admit that she loves him.


All in all, I'm not quite buying the "he's fed up with her tsuntsun behaviour and wants her to be nice to him" theory. It's a nice theory, but I don't think it totally reflects what happened in this episode, and I don't think that's why he was happy at the end. Then again, this is an "alternate ending", so perhaps we shouldn't pass too many judgements on this point yet.

[SaintessHeart]

We need an entire episode dedicated to Kuroneko in her maid costume and cat ears, and acting like a cat. Just like what she's doing in the mirror.

Then again, the Japanese police's Hi-tech Crime Division may crack it down as a WMD.

[MeoTwister5]

I happen to agree with some of those coming off the Good End with a suspicion that the True End may be going down the wincest route. I'm sure I'm not the only one seeing flags popping up everywhere especially with their argument and Kyousuke's sudden (and joyous?) acceptance of the continuation of their life counseling. I don't think they could have subtly telegraphed this distinct possibility better than this without being completely obvious about it.

I think that the entirety of their relationship for this episode has pretty much reached the usual normalcy of a sibling one. If the series started with them ambivalent and alien to each other, now it's a playful argument sort. They haven't gone closer than usual siblings do, but at least now they sort of act like usual brothers and sisters do.

And yeah that scene with the game lines playing exactly when they both try to figure out what to say was a nice touch. Kyousuke's also tsundere, that much is certain. Must run in the family since their dad oozes oodles of it. It's become obvious at this point that she was looking for a specific answer from him aside from his usual claim to be apathetic despite her attempts to get him to notice her. Classic tsundere behavior.

So six months to the True End episodes right? I still don't want to see the series go the wincest route, but at least with the last few episodes it's setting it up for a rather believable possibility.

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Dere alone doesn't make a tsundere any more than tsun alone does.

You're misunderstanding *facepalm*

The happiness at the end of the episode (I.e. - The "dere") is a direct result of the dishonesty in the earlier argument between Kyousuke and Kirino (I.e. - The "tsun.") Hence my conclusion that Kyousuke is just as much of a tsundere as Kirino.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

He didn't say that because he wanted her to make the choice that she wanted to make, whatever that was. That's why he said "Do what you want!"

"Do what you want!" is very much the sort of line you say to somebody that you're really tired of seeing play games (such as reverse psychology) with you. It's actually a classic romance drama line, where one partner gets exasperated with the other partner not being totally honest and upfront with him or her.

I would agree with you if it weren't for the anime blatantly pointing out to Kyousuke what Kirino actually wanted him to say, yet Kyousuke still chose to be dishonest.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

No, because he'd be willing to sacrifice his own happiness for her sake (dude's been doing that the entire anime ). He doesn't want to completely rule out the possibility that she really does want to go to America.

Then wouldn't it have been much easier if he had simply just told her, "I would rather have you stay but this is an opportunity that you shouldn't miss out on."? Instead he just kept telling her to go and "leave now."

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Actually, I think he's pretty honest. His feelings for Kirino come out garbled and very mixed, but that's because his sense of brotherly responsibility struggles against his genuine annoyance at Kirino's tsuntsun tendencies.

We're not saying anything different, are we? I did say that Kyousuke isn't honest about his feelings for Kirino all the time. There were 2 opportunities in that argument where Kyousuke was calm enough to explain to Kirino what his true feelings were, yet he didn't. If Kyousuke is so aware of Kirino's tsuntsun antics by now, then he should know the truth. Why make things so much more difficult by being dishonest?

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I believe my interpretation is just as plausible as yours. That's all