What Constitutes Child Pornography?

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Metaler

Moral education... Something about this seems uuh, fishy. No, I'm not doubting you, I'm just saying that idea of teaching kids about morality seems a bit.... strange. For me, morality is something you learn naturally through social life, in much the same way we learn our native languages. If we grow up in a socially healthy environment, chances are high that we will also learn how to be morally correct through it.

It's based on social common sense.

A lot better than learning them in Churches, which is majority of the case in the West, in my opinion.

[Sumeragi]

I always liked my morality classes, although I took them when I was in Korea. It could use a bit of updates when it comes to sex.....

[Metaler]

Originally Posted by aohige

It's based on social common sense.

But that's the thing. Isn't this the kind of thing you learn on a normal social environment? The only way you wouldn't know what constitutes common sense would be if you were an extremely sheltered child.

[Sumeragi]

School is part of a normal social environment.

[Metaler]

Not for everyone.

[aohige]

School is mandatory for kids until highschool in Japan.

So yes. It is.

[Metaler]

I'm not talking about Japan. I'm talking about the world. A child may understand common sense without going to school. So long as they live with their families and friends, they will surely learn common sense and morality. Perhaps the latter not in the same degree as a properly educated kid, though.

[Sumeragi]

The topic was how teaching ethics in Japanese schools is fishy. A normal social environment is based on different circumstances, so saying that how Japan does it is fishy is being one-sided.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Metaler

I'm not talking about Japan.

But.... we are.


I was replying to someone who said there's no moral education in Japan.
I told him he's wrong, it's actually a required class in Japan.

We're talking about Japan.
If you're not, then you're butting in with unrelated topic to the current discourse.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by aohige

Even considering the potential "unreported" cases, the difference is incomparably worse. The truth is, there's probably a significant amount of unreported cases in Japan, but same can be said of UK and US, and even with that considered, it's still a massive gap.

A very massive gap indeed. From the UNOCD data, sexual violence against children in Japan ranged from a high of 5.8 per 100,000 in 2003 to a low of 3.2 per 100,000 in 2009. It climbed from 3.2 in 2009 to 3.4 in 2010.

Compare the above to Germany, where the rate ranges from a high of 19.8 per 100,000 in 2003 to a low of 13.7 per 100,000 in 2009. Curiously, there was again an increase between 2009 and 2010, from 13.7 to 14.4.

Sweden presents an unexpected contrast. The rate of sexual violence against children there ranges from 37.1 per 100,000 in 2005 to a "shocking" 73.6 per 100,000 in 2010. The footnotes point out that there has been changes in definitions and/or counting rules, which may explain the alarming spike. Back in 2003, Sweden's rate of sexual violence against children was a more "normal" 5.2 per 100,000.

So, right away, these figures highlight something of great concern whenever we look at these studies. The UNOCD wisely makes this very clear in its footnotes to the data:

"Please note that when using the figures, any cross-national comparisons should be conducted with caution because of the differences that exist between the legal definitions of offences in countries, or the different methods of offence counting and recording."

With the above caveat in mind, refer back to the many concerns highlighted by respected organisations in the Reuters report that started this thread. It is the contention that Japan is not defining and not treating such crimes the way some other countries do. By implication, the suggestion is that these numbers are low in Japan not necessarily because "Japan is a safer place because of easy availability of kiddie porn", but simply because they are not treated as seriously as they would be elsewhere.

It comes back to what SeijiSensei had correctly observed: There is an extremely high chance of selection bias when we look at such data. I would very much hesitate to definitively claim that "more porn means less sex crimes".

But, of course, the converse is also true: "More porn doesn't necessarily mean more sex crime." In the end, we just don't know for sure, and have to rely more heavily on local knowledge of the circumstances of each specific country when passing judgment.

And, as for "moral education" classes, they're pretty common. I had those too, at pre-primary and primary school. In my case, the focus was on Confucianist virtues, though of course they weren't packaged as such in the textbooks. There was, for example, material about filial piety, that is, how we should show respect for parents and elders. How we should be honest and not steal, for example. They aren't moral education in the sense that we weren't taught moral philosophy, and we certainly didn't debate major moral questions.

And there was certainly no mention at all of sexual morality, be it in a Confucian context or not.

[Sumeragi]

Originally Posted by Random32

Japan doesn't have a child pornography problem, the rest of the world has a censorship problem.

Yes, there is a child pornography problem. The case in Kyoto is of a man who bought pornography of actual minors engaging in sex. As I said in a previous post, there are multiple sides to the general issue:

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

I believe we can split this issue into three parts, particularly when it comes to Japan:

1. Actual child pornography (minors actually engaging in sexual activities and sold on a commercial basis)
2. Minor Idols (gravure idols, etc)
3. Fictional representations (drawings, CGs, etc)

From what I understand, the case in Kyoto was Point 1.

Right now you're mixing up "fictional representation" with "record of actual activity". The fact is Japan in general does not have a child pornography law system, and there is a need for such laws like the one from Kyoto.

[Metaler]

Originally Posted by aohige

But.... we are.


I was replying to someone who said there's no moral education in Japan.
I told him he's wrong, it's actually a required class in Japan.

We're talking about Japan.
If you're not, then you're butting in with unrelated topic to the current discourse.

...You're right. I guess I just had a derp moment. orz

[Ridwan]

@Sumeragi: Too bad that the prevailing norm in public opinion seems to be mixing them together.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

The fact is Japan in general does not have a child pornography law system, and there is a need for such laws like the one from Kyoto.

And that, to me at least, is very alarming. Why is that the case?

Random conspiracy theory: Could it be because of yakuza links to government?

Just floating that up out of curiosity. I'm by no means suggesting that it is even remotely true.

[Sumeragi]

Originally Posted by Aegir

@Sumeragi: Too bad that the prevailing norm in public opinion seems to be mixing them together.

Not really. There is a strict difference within Japan, but the problem is that most countries outside of Japan tend to mix fictional representation and actual representation together, with Canada being one of the most known examples.

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

And that, to me at least, is very alarming. Why is that the case?

All I can think of is there never had been a major issue with it because the line between modelling and pornography was definite. Most actual representation child porn that initially spread in Japan were made from outside of Japan, and then it spread into domestic versions.

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

Not really. There is a strict difference within Japan, but the problem is that most countries outside of Japan tend to mix fictional representation and actual representation together, with Canada being one of the most known examples.

Guess the media is to blame..

[aohige]

Child pornography banning laws are welcomed in Japan, and would get support of the majority no problem.

The problem is, they keep trying to include FICTIONAL depiction in the law.
Because you know, a child drawn on paper has human rights. /sarcasm

If they didn't so insistently include that retarded section, the law would have passed ages ago.

Yeah, I'm talking to you Ishihara.
Which is funny, becuase I'm reluctantly defending his rights in another thread right now.

[Sumeragi]

Meh, I actually blame the DPJ for giving the context for Ishihara to start pushing for it.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

All I can think of is there never had been a major issue with it because the line between modelling and pornography was definite. Most actual representation child porn that initially spread in Japan were made from outside of Japan, and then it spread into domestic versions.

Illegal things can become a norm - modelling and pornography was definite in the eyes of the public, but things can happen in the backroom. First it becomes part of the black market and scandal, then it becomes a norm - the entireity of it including the sexual act; thanks to consistent reporting of the similar outcome of events.

Instituting laws only forces it underground. It is kind of a tricky issue because ethics and moral education may not have any effect on a society that prizes good grades over proper ethics in life.

You can't inject conscience into a child without letting him experience the short end of the stick (not intended to sound twice as wrong as it is, so don't read between the lines). Sex education is certainly one hell of a tricky issue.

Originally Posted by aohige

The problem is, they keep trying to include FICTIONAL depiction in the law.
Because you know, a child drawn on paper has human rights. /sarcasm

They should actually do a covert research on who would exactly fap to pictures of lolis in 2D and 3D forms. If they are going to institute this kind of law, might as well include a section where people like Vexx and Ascaloth would be thrown into prison for dating and marrying petite sized girls.

There is a fine difference between people who prefer small-sized women and sexually-motivated pedophiles. Putting them under the same banner of shotacon/lolicon is demeaning.

[ganbaru]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

If they are going to institute this kind of law, might as well include a section where people like Vexx and Ascaloth would be thrown into prison for dating and marrying petite sized girls.

Be carefull about such idea, you would have to establish clear and fixe parameters of what would be condidered ''petite'' sized. Age restriction is simple and clear, size restriction would be a nightmare.