2010-05-20, 18:25 | Link #10321 | |
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However, six years ago she was not Beatrice, while now, after being acknowledged by Lambdadelta is without any doubt Beatrice... but obviously in the gameboard she is a human and cannot use any magic or stuff like that. (Sorry, I do not know how to explain it well, in the big WoT I think it is well-explained a bit >_>) Anyhow, do you remember about metaBeatrice's dream in EP3? Virgilia NEVER calls her Beatrice or something, she just refers to her as "Princess".
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2010-05-20, 18:30 | Link #10322 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
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Your person needs a real name or she was never properly introduced as a character.
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2010-05-20, 18:33 | Link #10323 | |
The Great Dine
Join Date: Feb 2009
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2) They could all be lying and tricked Maria. 3) Someone disguised as Beatrice. Just being the detective doesn't mean Battler is immune to tricks or disguises, it just means that we can trust what he's narrating to us. As for Meta-Beatrice's dream, this can easily be a dream from someone on the island. Meta-Beatrice's origins in EP 6 show this to be very likely as well. |
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2010-05-20, 18:51 | Link #10324 | ||
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But that doesn't mean anything, since you aren't disprooving my theory, but you are just presenting an alternative to it. Just presenting an alternative is not sufficient to proove that what I said is false, as Battler does with Beatrice. The only difference between my statements and yours is that mine could lead to a lot of implication, since they have a theory explaining almost the whole mistery behind Umineko (a theory that could be true or false, but at least it there is) behind, while yours does not lead to anything unless you build a theory with solid bases (various hints scattered throughout the novel) starting from those statements. And as it regards what you (Judoh) say, I don't uunderstand what you say: she has been introduced as a character, she is Beatrice and we have even seen her many times, it doesn't mind how she was called six years ago or what is her real name (in a lot of mistery novels appear people with false names). Spoiler for Ot:
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Last edited by Linkin Battler; 2010-05-20 at 19:13. |
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2010-05-20, 19:14 | Link #10325 | |
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Second if nameless people were allowed to be introduced we could have all kinds of crazy culprits that would make absolutely no sense. We could have Rosa's nameless ex husband as a culprit. Or Gohda's unnamed twin brother as a culprit. It would totally mess everything up. So if your person has a title and Beatrice is not her given name she should have a real name. And it should be the name of someone in the story. Otherwise it makes no sense with that commandment.
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Last edited by Judoh; 2010-05-20 at 19:35. |
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2010-05-20, 19:35 | Link #10326 | |
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2010-05-20, 19:37 | Link #10327 | |
The Great Dine
Join Date: Feb 2009
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Spoiler for Major EP 6:
Again your theory has holes in it regarding both Knox and explanations that can be seen as far more simpler. I don't see how my points lead to implications, when they're reasonable solutions to what points you presented. |
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2010-05-20, 19:50 | Link #10328 | |
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Look titles don't work like that. Even with the title Beatrice they are not REALLY Beatrice they are person we don't even know with the title Beatrice. That title isn't going to deceive anybody if only Maria has met her,which is the only person you have hints for meeting her. Especially since there is a red saying old Beatrice died in 1967 Title's are very different from pseudonyms like your talking about. They're not the same thing that's why Lambda said Battler solved virtually none of the mysteries in episode 4. Your claiming that this person inherited this title called Beatrice when you don't even have a real name for her. You know virtually nothing about this character other than Maria has met her and that supposedly she kills people. Maria meeting her isn't even really a hint that a different person like that exists just that she met someone who meets the description of the person in the portrait. You also have no explanation for the closed rooms or 07151129 with this. You have no red suggesting she exists anywhere and no death declaration for her.
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2010-05-20, 20:02 | Link #10329 | |
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I.e. humanBeatrice knows that there will be a future metabattle with Battler and she prepares everything in view of that (the magic circles, the closed room, the letters, the illusion of magic, etc.) and that's why there are a lot of incongruence in the games (for example Gohda, Genji and Shannon lying about having seen Kanon, when we know Kanon was killed in this room in EP2 or the whole EP4). Obviously metaBeato (who is the humanBeato, the murderer, of the EP1) can communicate with humanBeato, as shown in EP4 (there is a scene where metaBeato speak with humanBeato after the balcony scene). That was what Beato meant when saying "the preparation are ready!", that she has told humanBeato what to do. This can also explain the crazy EP4, where we see everyone lying about the presence of Kinzo, magic and probably Shannon, but everything is better explained in my theory post.
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2010-05-20, 20:15 | Link #10330 | |
The Great Dine
Join Date: Feb 2009
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Here's the problem with that though: Beatrice clearly doesn't want Battler to be trapped forever. She's trying to get him out by helping him (red text, getting Ronove and Virgilia involved, etc) so your theory contradicts her motives to help Battler get out. She wants him to remember the promise, but she doesn't want him to be trapped forever on Rokkenjima. It's very likely that Beatrice was forced into starting the game, via Lambda.
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Your human Beatrice theory also contradicts Knox #1 right off, because she is never introduced to us in a human world perspective - only a meta-world perspective. The Suit-Beato in EP 2 and 4 doesn't count towards this because we see her appearing magically, not physically. Not to mention in EP 2 she never appears in front of Battler until the game end and by that time we see golden butterflies and a living Kinzo, which implies Battler's perspective is no longer reliable. |
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2010-05-20, 20:25 | Link #10331 | |
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However Lambda just denied Battler's theories with the red truth, I don't remember anything about titles or peudonyms °° And... I have already shown hints that can lead to the existance of Beato in the island, so clues have been presented, you cannot deny that. And as I told you, I already explained the closed rooms in the other post. As it regards the number it could just have been a trick of Beato for confusing the way, Lambda herself said that Beato does a lot of "fake moves". Or maybe, very likely, it was an hint to Battler to tell him that the murderer and the one who sent the letter to Nanjo's son and Kumasawa's son were the same person, since in this Episode there was one survivor and there was the chance that Battler could have entered in contact with a character of the future (things that it actually happens).
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2010-05-20, 20:40 | Link #10332 | |
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However, what you are saying is in part right: that's why Lambdadelta got angry with Beato in the EP3 Tea Party, because she understood that Beato's real purpose was not to trap Battler forever but to make him remember the promise and let him know how much she has suffered, she just wanted to tell him "why haven't you come while I was waiting for you, even though you have promised? ç_ç I believed in you and I have always been there waiting for you, but you never came and even though I continued waiting until today!". Try now to think to EP5 ???, or better, try to reread it from the "And then... I knew", doesn't this make sense? ("I've been the one putting you through a cruel torture"). And if you read EP3 Tea Parrty that's what transpire from Lambdadelta. Apart from that my theory also explain who, how and why murders happened, try to read EP5 ??? and tell me if the sentiment that it gives you is not just as what I said before. And if you have time read also EP3 Tea Party and tell me what you think.
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Last edited by Linkin Battler; 2010-05-20 at 20:53. |
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2010-05-20, 20:40 | Link #10333 | |
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Join Date: Jan 2010
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Here is the quote I 'm talking about
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2010-05-20, 20:43 | Link #10334 | |
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@Linkin Battler: Sorry, but no matter how well thought-out your theory is, I have to oppose it, as you place Beato as the mastermind culprit of these games. I see no reason to consider Beato as the mastermind through out these games, in fact, I actually see more evidence to prove she isn't. Her goal is not to make someone experience fear. And it isn't to have revenge on someone either. Beato never committed murder for the sake of pleasure. These three reds from Episode 5 heavily deny the possibility of Beato being the mastermind. They have defeated the three of the strongest possibilities for murdering the family. What is her goal, if not to make someone experience fear, to take revenge on someone, or for the sake of pleasure? To be forever with Battler? Episode 3, 4, and 5 contradict this. In Episode 3, she had the chance to have Battler submit and live forever in the Golden Land. Yet she turned her back on him, forcing him to grow stronger, strong enough to take her on in Episode 4. Once again, in Episode 4, she was ready to give in, surrender to Battler. Yet she did not. Once again, in order to let him properly solve the mysteries she had presented to him, she rose up and challenged him to kill her. Finally, the ending scene of Episode 5. Running out of faith, or patience for Battler, she allows herself to die, leaving him alone as he finally discovers the truth of this story. If she truly wanted to be with Battler, if this as truly her goal, then why did she give up on it? I refuse to think her goal is something as pointless as this. As I've stated several times, and as Marion said above she wants Battler to escape this endless repetition of murder. I submit this as her goal: to allow Battler to uncover the mastermind behind the killings that take place on October 4th and 5th, 1986, and gather the courage and determination to confront and defeat the culprit, and find the happiest ending he can for this story. |
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2010-05-20, 20:46 | Link #10335 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Anyone else notice how Jessica's old clothes just happened to be a perfect fit for Erika? |
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2010-05-20, 20:47 | Link #10336 | |
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2010-05-20, 20:51 | Link #10337 | |
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And it was neither one of those three xD She did not want to kill everyone xD Read my previous post and you will understand what I meant... If it is still not clear, just tell me and I will repeat it...
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2010-05-20, 20:52 | Link #10338 | |
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2010-05-20, 20:55 | Link #10339 | |
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Beato appears like an average human, because at that point, Battler's perspective was still reliable. He couldn't see someone appear in a flurry of golden butterflies, he can only see someone appear like an average human could. However, because of the darkness and the rain, he couldn't see who they were. So, for meta-Beato's convenience, she imposed the image of suit-Beato over the person for meta-Battler, who has a view of the gameboard and can see who it was. |
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2010-05-20, 20:58 | Link #10340 | |
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