[Manga] Who is Tobi?

[Hiking_Bear]

Originally Posted by james0246

Actually, just looking at how much Naruto, Sasuke, and the other genin changed in height over 2.5/3 years (from 13 to 15-16 years old), 20 cm is a drastic, almost unrealistic for the series, change in height. Specifically, it took Naruto 2.5/3 years to gain 20 cm. During the same time period, Sasuke only gained 15 cm. And the other Konoha 12 followed a similar path, generally only growing 10-15 cm within a longer time period than Obito's death and the Kyuubi attack (1 year).

Personally, I think you are wrong in how you are looking at these heights. Specifically, the heights are based off of average Japanese growth patterns. Consequently, it is extremely unlikely that Obito would grow 20 cm in a year or less.

Where does this 20cm come from? You're arguing against a straw man, as I said before.

That being said, this character in 500/501 is most probably Tobi, and Tobi's height is known (Data Book 3 confirmed the height at 175 cm (the Narutopedia page combines Tobi and Madara's information, but in reality only Tobi's height was given in the book, with Madara's information left undisclosed))...

That's Tobi's height 16 years into the future.

Actually, Obito would be the red herring...

No. Danzou was the red herring.

Something is obviously up with Tobi, that much is clear. But, Obito is such an obvious answer, that, to me at least, if Obito is in any way connected to Tobi, I will feel majorly jipped. People have been predicting that Tobi was Obito since the character was introduced back during the end of the Rescue Gaara arc. For Kishimoto to confirm that hypothesis now, after dragging us through all this Madara crap, would be the silliest writing.

I guess it already got silly a long time ago, ever since Minato was revealed to be Naruto's dad, despite everyone calling it "obvious"

[ZGoten]

Originally Posted by ZGoten

There is something fishy about him, though, and for me the fishiest thing about him, is that he was introduced to Akatsuki as a new member, yet he ordered Pain around, without being the leader of the group, nor the founder. Did he have ties to Pain before he joined? Did he somehow blackmaled Pain? I mean they even had different goals, they wanted to achieve different things once they had all the bijuus, yet they had still cooperated. Kishimoto never touched on how their relationship came to be and what it really was, and that still bucks me to date. Is it bad writing, to just not care about all those missing information, like with the Rin'negan, or is it possible, that Tobi's identity lies hidden within that missing information, so that Kishimoto hasn't told us all about it intentionally?

This guys, let's talk about this.^^

[madv2c]

Originally Posted by ZGoten

This guys, let's talk about this.^^

Just because Tobi ordered some of the Akatsuki(sp) members around, doesn't mean they knew his true intentions. Pain might only have followed Tobi because he lied, and made him believe his vision of the future matches his. This would explain why Tobi revealed his big plot to control the Ninja world after 80 percent of the Akatsuki were killed off.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear

Where does this 20cm come from? You're arguing against a straw man, as I said before.

Obito's height, when he died, was 155 cm. Tobi's height is 175 cm. So, 20 cm. There's no way to tell how tall or short Tobi is during the Kyuubi attack, but since we agree that he is Tobi, and it is obvious (to me at least) that he does not look "young" - short or underformed, etc, we are only left with the confirmed height for the character that the data book provides. Could the height be for Tobi 16 years in the future? Yes, but only if we accept the assumption that the body is Obito's. Consequently, it's kind of inarguable: If Tobi was the same height 16 years ago, then it couldn't be Obito; but if Tobi was shorter, then it could be Obito. Since nothing can actually be said conclusively on the matter, this becomes a non-point for the Tobi=Obito argument (you can't actually prove anything, so this point can't be said to affirm any specific stance as to the identity of Tobi).

Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear

No. Danzou was the red herring.

And Obito, and possibly Madara are red herrings as well. In fact, it is because Danzou was such a red herring that I am partially convinced that Obito will be as well (there was plenty of evidence to support Danzou=Tobi, but it was all swept to the side in only a few chapters; Obito, and possibly Madara, will very conceivably follow the same path)...

Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear

I guess it already got silly a long time ago, ever since Minato was revealed to be Naruto's dad, despite everyone calling it "obvious"

That was pretty silly, wasn't it? It certainly didn't help that both Minato and Kushina popped up inside Naruto's Tummy Seal...

[Hiking_Bear]

Originally Posted by ZGoten

This guys, let's talk about this.^^

I assume Tobi/Madara controlled Nagato in the same way that he's controlling Sasuke. It's not really control by force, but more of a manipulation. What Tobi could offer Pain was knowledge about the Sage of the Six Paths and a means for Pain to achieve his goals. There was a tablet left behind by the sage that held the key to unlocking the ultimate eye power (IIRC) and it required the Sharingan and the Rinnegan to decipher it. Tobi needed Nagato for a couple of other purposes as well. One purpose was to sync with Gedo Mazo - the statue used to seal the bijuu. A second purpose was for Nagato to save Rinne Tensei (the revival justu) for him.

Originally Posted by james0246

Obito's height, when he died, was 155 cm. Tobi's height is 175 cm. So, 20 cm. There's no way to tell how tall or short Tobi is during the Kyuubi attack,

So then, not 20cm.

Could the height be for Tobi 16 years in the future? Yes, but only if we accept the assumption that the body is Obito's. Consequently, it's kind of inarguable:

But if we take Tobi's height to be the same as it is 16 years later then we operate under another assumption, namely that Tobi's body (in the present) is at least 18+16 = 34 years old (18 being the approximate age when guys stop growing). Equally inarguable.

If Tobi was the same height 16 years ago, then it couldn't be Obito;

Going by height, one could just as well argue that Tobi can't be Madara, because he's too tall for someone who would have undergone bone loss by that age.

[ZGoten]

Originally Posted by madv2c

Just because Tobi ordered some of the Akatsuki(sp) members around, doesn't mean they knew his true intentions. Pain might only have followed Tobi because he lied, and made him believe his vision of the future matches his. This would explain why Tobi revealed his big plot to control the Ninja world after 80 percent of the Akatsuki were killed off.

Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear

I assume Tobi/Madara controlled Nagato in the same way that he's controlling Sasuke. It's not really control by force, but more of a manipulation. What Tobi could offer Pain was knowledge about the Sage of the Six Paths and a means for Pain to achieve his goals. There was a tablet left behind by the sage that held the key to unlocking the ultimate eye power (IIRC) and it required the Sharingan and the Rinnegan to decipher it. Tobi needed Nagato for a couple of other purposes as well. One purpose was to sync with Gedo Mazo - the statue used to seal the bijuu. A second purpose was for Nagato to save Rinne Tensei (the revival justu) for him.

So he probably was just playing with Pain, but all this doesn't explain why Tobi entered the organization via backdoor. Well, he probably joined as a regular member to get to know Pain better, and how to aproach him best concerning his plan of "cooperation". I just wonder what had happened if they succeeded in gathering all the bijuus. I doubt Tobi could have taken Pain head on, but then again he probably had Zetsu and Kisame already on his side.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear

But if we take Tobi's height to be the same as it is 16 years later then we operate under another assumption, namely that Tobi's body (in the present) is at least 18+16 = 34 years old (18 being the approximate age when guys stop growing). Equally inarguable.

I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear

Going by height, one could just as well argue that Tobi can't be Madara, because he's too tall for someone who would have undergone bone loss by that age.

Most 90+ year old can't even move, let alone fight, so what you say is kind of a moot point...

But, whatever. We're not convincing each other of anything, and were just starting to repeat ourselves. So, I'll bow out of the discussion before things get worse (next we'll be talking about the similarity of Obito and Tobi's hair j/k).

[Hiking_Bear]

Originally Posted by james0246

I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

I'm saying it doesn't follow that someone has the same height 16 years ago unless you make an assumption about age.

Most 90+ year old can't even move, let alone fight, so what you say is kind of a moot point...

moot means debatable. It's more like the opposite of moot.

But, whatever. We're not convincing each other of anything, and were just starting to repeat ourselves. So, I'll bow out of the discussion before things get worse (next we'll be talking about the similarity of Obito and Tobi's hair j/k). .

Yes. Straw men are better left to rest.

[yakumo-chan]

I think its impossible for obito wanting destruction for konoha..... I still do believe that the tobi we saw in chapter 501 is indeed madara.....

but the Tobi in the present is not madara..... I do think that Tobi is the Ten Tails..... because tobi is always saying he wants to be "Complete"

Tobi's words on chapter 501

"Dont you know how long I have waited for this moment?"

- this confirms that the Tobi we saw on chapter 501 is definitely Madara....

since Tobi wants Moon eye plan now, this just corrected Kakashi's words...

"Im not sure sure... I doubt its someone else"

since Madara do not want moon eye plan but a revenge on konoha

[Gin]

Originally Posted by yakumo-chan

but the Tobi in the present is not madara..... I do think that Tobi is the Ten Tails..... because tobi is always saying he wants to be "Complete"

IIRC he only said that once, thats not really enough times to say that he is always saying that.

Originally Posted by yakumo-chan

since Madara do not want moon eye plan but a revenge on konoha

When/where was it ever stated that Madara wasn't interested in the Moon's Eye Plan? Or that he has given up on his hopes for revenge on Konoha? Madara has done a lot to mess with Konoha so far in the story. Since Madara is the evil mastermind behind Akatsuki, all of the trouble they caused Konoha can be credited to Madara. (Even Pain's destruction of the village)

[yakumo-chan]

Originally Posted by Gin

IIRC he only said that once, thats not really enough times to say that he is always saying that.

he already said it twice

Originally Posted by Gin

When/where was it ever stated that Madara wasn't interested in the Moon's Eye Plan?

sheesh... it doesnt needed to be stated..... its clearly that all he wants was revenge on chapter 501....

Originally Posted by Gin

Or that he has given up on his hopes for revenge on Konoha?

If tobi was Madara now... konoha would be totally destroyed by now... by all the bijuu he had... plus the akatsuki members....
but it would seem that he doesnt want revenge now.....

which makes kakashi's words true.... "considering his plan... I think its someone else"

[madv2c]

Originally Posted by yakumo-chan

which makes kakashi's words true.... "considering his plan... I think its someone else"

Kakashi never says that. His exact words from the chapter you are referring to: "but considering his plan, i doubt it could be anyone else". Meaning he doubts it could be anyone else besides Madara.

Go read the page again..

[yakumo-chan]

Originally Posted by madv2c

Kakashi never says that. His exact words from the chapter you are referring to: "but considering his plan, i doubt it could be anyone else". Meaning he doubts it could be anyone else besides Madara.

Go read the page again..

oh yeah it was this one..


but still... kakashi is still indicating here that the masked guy might not be Madara since Madara's only Goal was to crush konoha....

so Tobi might really be someone else since the Moon eye plan isnt what's Madara all about..

[ZGoten]

^In fact, Kakashi is saying the exact opposite of what you claim he said. He did not indicate anything.

"I doubt it could be anyone else [other than Madara]."

[Gin]

Originally Posted by yakumo-chan

If tobi was Madara now... konoha would be totally destroyed by now... by all the bijuu he had... plus the akatsuki members....
but it would seem that he doesnt want revenge now.....

Konoha IS destroyed, did you see any of Pain's invasion? The Moon Eye plan could have been what Madara was after the whole time. Hashirama probably gave the bijuu away to stop Madara in the first place.

Originally Posted by yakumo-chan

which makes kakashi's words true.... "considering his plan... I think its someone else"

You already posted the panel, so go read it again. Wear your glasses.

Originally Posted by yakumo-chan

but still... kakashi is still indicating here that the masked guy might not be Madara since Madara's only Goal was to crush konoha....

so Tobi might really be someone else since the Moon eye plan isnt what's Madara all about..

Where did anyone ever say that Madara isn't all about the Moon Eye plan? Where did anyone say that Madara's only goal was to destroy Konoha? Do you even realize that the Moon's Eye plan effects Konoha as well? It enslaves everyone which would finally let him be the Hokage like he wanted to way back when he was founding the village.

[yakumo-chan]

Originally Posted by ZGoten

^In fact, Kakashi is saying the exact opposite of what you claim he said. He did not indicate anything.

"I doubt it could be anyone else [other than Madara]."

do you know what the word "doubt" means??

here

Doubt, a status between belief and disbelief, involves uncertainty or distrust or lack of sureness of an alleged fact, an action, a motive, or a decision.

- which means Kakashi is not 100% sure that Tobi is Madara

Originally Posted by Gin

Konoha IS destroyed, did you see any of Pain's invasion? The Moon Eye plan could have been what Madara was after the whole time. Hashirama probably gave the bijuu away to stop Madara in the first place.

Yup konoha is destroyed... but it was not TObi's decision...

actually It was Pain's decision to destroy konoha since he wants konoha to learn more about pain.... here you go and read it again...

Spoiler for long:

Originally Posted by Gin

You already posted the panel, so go read it again. Wear your glasses.

you dont need to tell me that... sheeshh... I already know...

Originally Posted by Gin

Where did anyone ever say that Madara isn't all about the Moon Eye plan?

there is no absolute answer that his goal in the first place was the moon eye plan since in chapter 501 he said to Kushina that

"To take the kyubi away from you and destroy konoha"
try to read it

Spoiler for 501:

he didnt say that he wants the moon eye plan to kushina..., which makes Madara's goal was only to destroy konoha....

but the Tobi we saw today....
he said it to the five kages that he wants the moon eye plan.... but why not kushina knowing that kushina might die in extracting the kyubi???

ALSO... why bothered trying to destroy konoha on chapter 501 when he can start collecting bijuus now???
you did said that the Moon eye plan effects Konoha as well right??

[ZGoten]

Originally Posted by yakumo-chan

do you know what the word "doubt" means??

here

Doubt, a status between belief and disbelief, involves uncertainty or distrust or lack of sureness of an alleged fact, an action, a motive, or a decision.

- which means Kakashi is not 100% sure that Tobi is Madara

Of course he's unsure about it, but he still thinks it is Madara nonetheless.
You said Kakashi indicated it might be someone else considering his plan, but that's just wrong.

Originally Posted by yakumo-chan

kakashi is still indicating here that the masked guy might not be Madara since Madara's only Goal was to crush konoha....

Because of his plan, Kakashi thinks it is Madara. He only sais "I doubt" because he has no proof.

When I say "I doubt I'll be making it to the meeting in time due to traffic holdup" I'm not saying "Due to traffic holdup I might make it in time."

[madv2c]

@ Yakumo

You're not understanding the notion of the sentence. Kakashi is saying he believes it is Madara; when he says "i doubt it could be anyone else" it means he doubts it can be anyone else besides Madara, not that he doubts Madara is Tobi.

As far as Madara's goal of taking control of Konaha, along with the rest of the Ninja world as opposed to destroying it, there's a simple answer. He already tried just destroying Konaha, using the nine-tailed fox, and as you know that didn't turn out great for him. It's only logical he switches up his game and tries something else.

Anyway, most of these concepts should be taken with a grain of salt. As i read through 500+ chapters of Naruto, i anticipated the "big reveals" many chapters before it happened. There's nothing hidden, no clues for you to find, nothing complicated, and not intended to be read with a mature mindset. It's just not that kind of show, lol.

An example for you would be "the mystery of Pain". If you remember how dramatically they emphasized the big secret about his abilities, but it was blatantly obvious. Even when Jiraiya died procuring all that info on Pain, and sending the "the real one is not among them" message to Naruto, everyone decided to be an idiot and remain oblivious. Even Shikamaru dropped down to a numb-skull level, apparently having it spelled out for them wasn't enough. This whole Tobi thing will turn out exactly like that, just go with the most obvious answer and it'll probably be right.

[james0246]

^The most obvious answer is...its Izuna! Tobi is a reference to Tobirama, and Tobirama was the younger brother of Hashirama...just like Izuna is the younger brother of Madara. See, it all makes sense...

[milan kyuubi]

Madara can also be using Uchiha Shisui body at the present. Danzou took one of his eyes but Madara took the rest.