[Manga] Sasuke stronger than Kakashi?

[Midnight Commander]

^Well, imo, that entire fiasco was put in place to show that Sasuke is among the strongest in the ninja world. To go on and on about how he "lost" to this kage or that kage is really stupid considering the fact that he went up against all the kages (breifly), and more or less stood his own against most of them -- the ones he couldn't stand against was because of the fact that because of the circumstances (Sasuke vs. the freakin' ninja world...) the odds were horribly against him and he was in no shape to face them. I mean, what do you expect? Kage level opponents coming one after another with techniques you don't know shit about? I mean, its not like he's Naruto or anything . Seriously though, I think its pretty obvious that given a one vs. one fight, he stands a chance against any of the kages, and I believe that was the purpose of the summit battle in the first place. pwnage after pwnage? lol, I think not.

[morbosfist]

I'll go with james and give up on the discussion here. We've gone rather off topic given the subject.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Captain Commando

^Well, imo, that entire fiasco was put in place to show that Sasuke is among the strongest in the ninja world. To go on and on about how he "lost" to this kage or that kage is really stupid considering the fact that he went up against all the kages (breifly), and more or less stood his own against most of them -- the ones he couldn't stand against was because of the fact that because of the circumstances (Sasuke vs. the freakin' ninja world...) the odds were horribly against him and he was in no shape to face them. I mean, what do you expect? Kage level opponents coming one after another with techniques you don't know shit about? I mean, its not like he's Naruto or anything . Seriously though, I think its pretty obvious that given a one vs. one fight, he stands a chance against any of the kages, and I believe that was the purpose of the summit battle in the first place. pwnage after pwnage? lol, I think not.

And that is all the past, against Danzou Sasuke was already at a level that could kill a kage, because that's when his susano finally developed, against the kages he was just training to master his MS.

Now add to that the EMS upgrade that he got with Itachi's eyes, and Sasuke can now probably kill multiple kages that come at him together.

And we don't know if Madara wants to upgrade Sasuke even with some demons, since he has 7 demons at disposal right now.

Any discussion about "is Sasuke stronger than <insert_anyone_who_is_not_Naruto_here>?" is pointless since both Sasuke and Naruto are constantly given new powerups, while the other side characters don't get any powerups (except some more important characters like Kakashi). So a Sasuke vs Raikage fight that we have seen will never happen again as it happened before, because Sasuke is much stronger now while the Raikage has the same abilities.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Any discussion about "is Sasuke stronger than <insert_anyone_who_is_not_Naruto_here>?" is pointless since both Sasuke and Naruto are constantly given new powerups, while the other side characters don't get any powerups (except some more important characters like Kakashi). So a Sasuke vs Raikage fight that we have seen will never happen again as it happened before, because Sasuke is much stronger now while the Raikage has the same abilities.

Pretty much this. All the arguments I've made don't take this into account. It's plot-driven strength which makes them unbeatable. Kakashi would surely lose once you factor this in.

[Midnight Commander]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Any discussion about "is Sasuke stronger than <insert_anyone_who_is_not_Naruto_here>?" is pointless since both Sasuke and Naruto are constantly given new powerups, while the other side characters don't get any powerups (except some more important characters like Kakashi). So a Sasuke vs Raikage fight that we have seen will never happen again as it happened before, because Sasuke is much stronger now while the Raikage has the same abilities.

I agree with that... Thats why my post wasn't in regards to a possible Sasuke vs. "X", I was merely stating my interpretation of the kage summit battle. Some members were stating that Sasuke lost or was "pwned" by certain opponents, I gave my opinion on that; a fight, not a Sasuke vs. X matchup.

Yes, a Sasuke vs. Raikage fight might not ever happen again because there will be no point - we already seen him stand against the Raikage toe to toe and was able to take him on and he looked like he was in Rai's tier, as I said I believe that to be the whole point of the battle.

Originally Posted by morbosfist

I'll go with james and give up on the discussion here. We've gone rather off topic given the subject.

The subject itself is moot given the state of things now... Sasuke was quite possibly Kakashi's equal since right after he left Orochimaru...

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Pretty much this. All the arguments I've made don't take this into account. It's plot-driven strength which makes them unbeatable. Kakashi would surely lose once you factor this in.

Once you factor that in, you can make any argument useless... Many members foolishly use that to try and get out of arguments or corners that they painted themselves in, but factoring in the plot makes just about everything moot... Including most forum discussions; you might as well not participate in forum discussions if thats the case:

Byakugan vs. sharingan thread - whatever the author wants, he made the sharingan stronger.
weakest member of akatsuki thread - whatever the author wants, he made "X" weakest.
Sasuke stronger than Naruto thread- whatever the author wants, he made "X" stronger.
ALL Hinata threads - whatever the author wants, he made her shy and naruto to dumb to ask her out.
|| || || ||

[greyhame6]

Originally Posted by Scorpian

At first I thought you guys ("morbofist" and "grayhame6") were just being somewhat sticklers for technicalities, but its become very obvious now that you're just bent on making Sasuke the loser of the fight because you don't like the character, which is pretty typical on this forum.

dont assume. i feel sorry for sasuke coz of how he's being used(i hate his stupidity but the character itself has led too pathetic a life to not be pitied). but there is such a thing as being accurate & inaccurate regardless of how anyone may feel. the fight was interrupted and there are several factors that influenced them both but the eventual outcome is, honestly, fairly obvious. he's undoubtedly powerful; no way am i going to deny that but his strength is being overestimated. but i will drop it at that. everyone's entitled to their own opinions. funny thing though that u didn't say i like raikage(not that i do).

[Hunter]

Kakashi had a fighting chance (but I don't think a good one) against Sasuke right after his apparition in part 2 and possibly just after the Itachi fight when he lost Oro's power and had yet to train his MS abilities (but again I find this doubtful).
Similarly Kakashi was surpassed by Naruto after the KB training right before Sasuke absorbed Oro's power which isn't surprising since Naruto and Sasuke rarely stay at a different "power level" more than one arc.

As far as the Raikage Vs. Sasuke is concerned, I think none won the fight since it was interrupted. The outcome however was clearly in Sasuke's favor, as James said Sasuke was only bruised and managed to get away after Danzou (which was his goal) whereas the Raikage lost his arm and failed to kill Sasuke.
That being said, the Raikage was more impressive than Sasuke in this fight. The Raikage was all rage an fury on Sasuke's ass who could only turtle it up after the first clash (which did draw blood greyhame6, what did you think it was? Jellow?) but for all his might he didn't achieve any kind of significant damage.
I also disagree with those who said the Raikage acted like an idiot when he struck through the flame of Amaterasu. What else was he supposed to do? Stare his opponent to death? That's more Sasuke's forte.
Trying to kill Sasuke despite the damage it would cause to himself was his only choice. He had no other way to harm Sasuke.

[Blaster]

Obviously Sasuke is better than most. After all the trouble Kishi did to make Sharingan disgustingly imbalanced, will be better than Kakashi.

Kakashi is definitely underrated. After the timeskip, his chakra capacity seems to have gotten a big boost since he's able to maintain and use MS for quite some time.

Take away MS for both, Sasuke might not be able to even touch Kakashi. There is not doubt Kakashi is one of the best ninja in Naruto now, with or without his Sharingan (of course the Sharingan puts him to another level).

Sasuke, on the other hand, has only shown his incompetence without Sharingan. Sasuke without the horribly overpowered Sharingan would be about the same level as Sakura. That's how overpowered Sharingan is. That said, Itachi was dumbed down severely during Sasuke vs Itachi.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Blaster

Kakashi is definitely underrated. After the timeskip, his chakra capacity seems to have gotten a big boost since he's able to maintain and use MS for quite some time.

3 shots. That's all he has before he dies.

Originally Posted by Blaster

Take away MS for both, Sasuke might not be able to even touch Kakashi. There is not doubt Kakashi is one of the best ninja in Naruto now, with or without his Sharingan (of course the Sharingan puts him to another level).

Sasuke, with just his Sahringan, was able to defeat Orochimaru and Deidara, both opponents that were beyond Kakashi.

But, if you also take away the CS/2 and the White Snake abilities, then I would tend to agree that even Sasuke extreme abilities with his Sharingan might not be equal to Kakashi using his Sharingan.

Originally Posted by Blaster

Sasuke, on the other hand, has only shown his incompetence without Sharingan. Sasuke without the horribly overpowered Sharingan would be about the same level as Sakura. That's how overpowered Sharingan is.

To be fair, take away their special abilities and Naruto, Gaara, Neji, and so many other "elities" wouldn't be much better than Sakura...

Originally Posted by Blaster

That said, Itachi was dumbed down severely during Sasuke vs Itachi.

Itachi wasn't really dumbed down, per se, rather he entered the fight intent on, more or less, killing himself.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by james0246

Sasuke, with just his Sahringan, was able to defeat Orochimaru and Deidara, both opponents that were beyond Kakashi.

He fought Deidara to a standstill, then Deidara blew himself up. That snake escape was completely unbelievable.

Originally Posted by james0246

Itachi wasn't really dumbed down, per se, rather he entered the fight intent on, more or less, killing himself.

And was half-dead at the start.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

He fought Deidara to a standstill, then Deidara blew himself up. That snake escape was completely unbelievable.

If you force an opponent to use a suicidal technique just to potential harm you, then you have already won the fight...as so long as you don't get killed by said suicidal attack .

Originally Posted by morbosfist

And was half-dead at the start.

As I've said in the past, Sasuke couldn't even defeat a half-dead Itachi who was trying to lose...

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by james0246

If you force an opponent to use a suicidal technique just to potential harm you, then you have already won the fight...as so long as you don't get killed by said suicidal attack .

Fair enough on that point, though I still maintain his survival was an ass pull of epic proportions.

[Rheehemoth]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Fair enough on that point, though I still maintain his survival was an ass pull of epic proportions....that only plot power could achieve.

Fixed!

[Ashaman]

Originally Posted by james0246

As I've said in the past, Sasuke couldn't even defeat a half-dead Itachi who was trying to lose...

To be fair, Itachi specifically pushed Sasuke to his absoulute limits, and I think there is a general, if small misconception either in how strong Itachi actually was, and how ill he actually was.

I think Itachi was going full tilt, but his illness had weakened him, slowed him down ect.

He was going to lose from the start because of his illness, and he knew it, but it wasn't like he was purposefully holding back either.

[Blaster]

Originally Posted by james0246

3 shots. That's all he has before he dies.

Sasuke, with just his Sahringan, was able to defeat Orochimaru and Deidara, both opponents that were beyond Kakashi.

But, if you also take away the CS/2 and the White Snake abilities, then I would tend to agree that even Sasuke extreme abilities with his Sharingan might not be equal to Kakashi using his Sharingan.

To be fair, take away their special abilities and Naruto, Gaara, Neji, and so many other "elities" wouldn't be much better than Sakura...

Itachi wasn't really dumbed down, per se, rather he entered the fight intent on, more or less, killing himself.

Well, you're right in saying that Garaa, Naruto, Neji are powered by this imba bloodline/bijuu that existed. Neji to a lesser extent maybe. Byakugan is one of the more balanced bloodlines. Take away the bijuu, take away Sharingan, there will be no more story.

Secondly, kakashi haven't fought Orochimaru before after the timeskip. Kakashi was babysitting Naruot during Deidara's fight and it's really can't be helped that Kakashi can't fly. So in fact, Kakashi never really fought both of them before.

On the other hand, the way Orochimaru died was so embarassing. It is quite obvious that Orochimaru was severely weakened for Sasuke to kill. Well, basically my point is, unless the opponents are dumbed down for Sasuke, his only real achievement is Danzo and Deidara.

[iBeast]

Originally Posted by Blaster

Well, you're right in saying that Garaa, Naruto, Neji are powered by this imba bloodline/bijuu that existed. Neji to a lesser extent maybe. Byakugan is one of the more balanced bloodlines. Take away the bijuu, take away Sharingan, there will be no more story.

Secondly, kakashi haven't fought Orochimaru before after the timeskip. Kakashi was babysitting Naruot during Deidara's fight and it's really can't be helped that Kakashi can't fly. So in fact, Kakashi never really fought both of them before.

On the other hand, the way Orochimaru died was so embarassing. It is quite obvious that Orochimaru was severely weakened for Sasuke to kill. Well, basically my point is, unless the opponents are dumbed down for Sasuke, his only real achievement is Danzo and Deidara.

Every fight in Naruto has been "dumbed" down then. Name me one fight after the timeskip involving Sasuke or Naruto where it wasn't dumbed down.

[Scorpian]

Originally Posted by Blaster

Obviously Sasuke is better than most. After all the trouble Kishi did to make Sharingan disgustingly imbalanced, will be better than Kakashi.

I really don't see the point of including the author of the book in an argument regarding two characters levels; as if the author is in the book himself. That would be like saying "Well, Naruto is only as strong as he is because Kishimoto went through hell powering him up", or "Kishimoto went through hell making Sage Mode totally broken, so of course Naruto is strong now".

Originally Posted by Blaster

Take away MS for both, Sasuke might not be able to even touch Kakashi. There is not doubt Kakashi is one of the best ninja in Naruto now, with or without his Sharingan (of course the Sharingan puts him to another level).

lol not be able to touch Kakashi? I seriously doubt Kakashi would last long against Itachi, even in his sickened condition. People love to say that Itachi was "half-dead" and trying to lose, however that fight was still one hell of a fight to endure, and there are not many people who could have made it that far. I'm very doubtful Kakashi would have, especially without his MS.

I believe they would actually be pretty close to one another without their MS; Sasuke having a bit of a lead since he has a stronger sharingan, said to have more potential, and probably has more chakra. They are both pretty smart and crafty, with Kakashi having more experience, Sasuke having more raw power. Kakashi's experience will allow him to keep up with Sasuke's lead in power, and Sasuke's edge in power will allow him to keep Kakashi's at bay. So, I'd call it more or less even right after Sasuke left Oro, but after that, Sasuke begins to clearly dominate; especially since he's fought some pretty high-level opponents that have given him some decent experience.

Originally Posted by Blaster

Sasuke, on the other hand, has only shown his incompetence without Sharingan. That said, Itachi was dumbed down severely during Sasuke vs Itachi.

Thats funny, because to me, he actually looked better without his sharingan (specifically the MS). His fight with Deidara and Oro were won on craftiness and skill, but with Danzou it was mostly about overpowering and outlasting the opponent(the last part was pretty smart though).

If you really remember the battles, before the MS, we've seen creative uses of chidorii, fire jutsu, and even shirukens. After gaining the MS, he mostly just overpowers his opponents instead of outsmarting them, as done in the past.

[ShadowAssasin]

Originally Posted by Scorpian

I really don't see the point of including the author of the book in an argument regarding two characters levels; as if the author is in the book himself. That would be like saying "Well, Naruto is only as strong as he is because Kishimoto went through hell powering him up", or "Kishimoto went through hell making Sage Mode totally broken, so of course Naruto is strong now".

It helps them sleep better at night, I guess; they obviously have a chip on their shoulder about him for whatever reason. People love saying things to the effect of Sasuke only becoming strong because he's allegedly the author's favorite character, and whenever they mention Sasuke's EMS or MS they will always go out of their way to include "(thanks to Itachi)" lol. However, just about every power up gained in this manga is thanks to someone. Imagine how ridiculous it would be if everytime someone referenced naruto using the kyuubi they also included (which he gained thanks to Minato, or learned to master thanks to kirabi), or his sage mode (thanks to the sage frog).