Claymore Chapter 93

[Gooral]

@Ryus

Who said anything about panicking or rushing for help? Don't put your own words in my mouth. When Miria heard about Helen being seriously injured she didn't even twitch, there was no exclamation mark, no concern, nothing, as if she was expecting for sth like this to happen. She didn't even ask how bad this "serious injury" was (word serious doesn't say much). Every normal person would show some concern about his friends and asked what happened, even more so when she could spare 10 seconds to do that. Instead she ignored it and probably thought that Helen got what she deserved. When she heard however that Isley was killed she was startled and wanted to know more immediately. Now that is wicked. And I've thought about your arguments a-h before you've even written them (I was prepared to have an argument with Fenrir, so I thought what counter arguments he could come up with) but all of this doesn't change the fact she didn't show any concern. I'll counter them for fun though.

Ad a) True, but if someone in your family is ill you ignore him (read: piss on him) just because you're not a doctor and someone else is taking care of him anyway? I for one would show some concern and try to know more about his condition and not jump to conclusions that since there are no funeral preparations yet it's nothing THAT serious.

Ad b) They can travel as well with Helen on Deneve's shoulder so the information they're going to Cynthia doesn't specify that Helen can do it using her own legs. Also, you can't know whether Deneve would tell Miria everything or not, I would even bet that she wouldn't so that Miria wouldn't have to worry much and be even more angry with them.

Ad c) You've written the same thing in a)

Ad d) That would be a good argument if I was saying that Miria should go and help them or send someone that would do it for her but since I've never said anything like that it has nothing to do with my post.

Ad e) Again, it has nothing to do with what I've said.

Ad f) Can't deny that and honestly it was very stupid of her. Gathering all injured in one place made it easier for AB to kill them all in one go. Besides, she wasted time on that instead of attacking AB which at the same time would protect the three because male AB would have to worry about Miria, not some half-dead, weak (not even single digits) warriors.
I have no idea what changed but it's clear to me that Miria favors Clare and sometimes ignores others.

Ad g) Yep, at least not much. She worships Miria only, the rest can just die. Seriously though, Miria was doing the talking, Tabitha is just her pawn, she wouldn't dare to ask anything even more so if Miria that knew Helen much much longer didn't either.

Ad h) Irrelevant. I doubt Miria is so dull-witted that she needs an hour to process information. The fact remains that she didn't show any concern when she heard Helen was injured, even if I'm overreacting it says something about Miria.

I will probably answer the rest when I get back.

[Cyclone]

Originally Posted by sonotme_9FedriqSama

Is this the comining month sissue of JumpSQ

Spoiler for JumpSQ:

Spoiler for JumpSQ1:

Spoiler for JumpSQ2:

No - that's last months issue (with 93 in it).

[Cyclone]

Originally Posted by Ryus

Thanks Cyclone! I thought I was going crazy... but I couldn't imagine the translators not using the word yoki if it was in the raw. Yet everyone seemed to be implying that it was a given that the move required Yoki, when I read that line I thought that part was odd for avoiding using the word Yoki when it would have been so simple to use there.

Speculation: Maybe spinning the arm like that requires no yoki but creates stresses for her body that makes in like fighting with an injured arm. So besides being just having an injured arm it could also be that using it is risky, like Clare accidentally going over her limit in the Cathedral when injured kinda risky. Speculation: Or it could be that for some reason Yoki wasn't in that one line and the move does use yoki.

Edit: Oh... I spent so long catching up on posts I didn't even notice the Chapter 94 thread going up...

I think it does require youki to use normally - Jean just didn't say it in that scene though. The move is not that fundamentally different from Helen's gomu gomu abilities afterall - both require limb deformation. Miria does say in the Slasher's arc that that is something normally only possible when pushing the abilities to the maximum. So, no, it wouldn't surprise me if the move required youki use (for normal Claymores anyways [Helen is Half Awakened so she doesn't count]).

[zato_1one]

I would take that spoiler as a grain of salt. If it mentions about character by nickname (noodle) and doesn't end up with "continue to next issue" then it's 99% fake.

And why the hell those AB feeder attack Beth. 0_o

edit: I tried translating it with Babel. And I just know that Rubel's nickname is Lu Lu. LOL Now, I'm sure it's 100% fake.

[Cyclone]

Originally Posted by zato_1one

I would take that spoiler as a grain of salt. If it mentions about character by nickname (noodle) and doesn't end up with "continue to next issue" then it's 99% fake.

The chinese have their own nicknames for the characters and use them extensively (like we have Raciella and ZACS). IIRC Clare is rabbit for example. Noodles is actually not a bad name for Riful...
The difference seems to be they make nicknames for all characters, we tend to make names for characters that don't have them yet (and then stick with them).

[zato_1one]

I understand but in my opinion, using such words can really pull down the credibility of that spoiler to almost zero.

The new chapter discussion thread has already been created. Should we move to new thread or waiting for more spoiler?

[Throne Invader]

I think we need more spoilers

[sonotme_9FedriqSama]

Originally Posted by Cyclone

No - that's last months issue (with 93 in it).

Hey then they had an extra supplement last month which had claymore suff has anybody scanned that yet???

Oh...this the one for this month:

Spoiler:

@zato...

we should move to next thread when the chapter is released

[Shiek927]

...............What the heck? 0_0

That spoiler........you thought it was plausible Solace?

Up till Claire showing up, it made sense. But why are they showing up at all? If they kept their heads out of all this, all their troubles would have fixed themselves. I know this could be one of those big twists Yagi does but my god, everybody was expecting this big battle, this sort of feels like an anticlimatic way to end it.

I don't believe it; right now, it's just too crazy to believe. Not to mention it alludes to one more chapter going by with Dauf still breathing.

I guess it's possible in the sense that Rubel isn't sitting on his butt and still working against the Org, and that means finding a way to tamper with the AE's. Nevertheless, it just seems wasteful. Unless Raciella is going to fight Riful(which assumes this spoiler is even true), it seems too anticlimatic.

[Serrintine]

Originally Posted by zato_1one

I would take that spoiler as a grain of salt. If it mentions about character by nickname (noodle) and doesn't end up with "continue to next issue" then it's 99% fake.

And why the hell those AB feeder attack Beth. 0_o

edit: I tried translating it with Babel. And I just know that Rubel's nickname is Lu Lu. LOL Now, I'm sure it's 100% fake.

Hey it was just a summary I found so (naturally) it doesn't contain every single word printed on the actual pages and whoever wrote it used nicknames that people on baidu are familiar with.

And Babelfish is a blasphemous translator. Rubel wasn't addressed by a nickname. The author of the summary used his official name in Chinese, Lu Bu.

But with everything said, I also think this spoiler is pretty fake. I just felt like putting it here since I had nothing better to do

[MisterJB]

Originally Posted by King Lycan

^ I mean i know dauf is an eyesore ..
But he deserves a better death then getting eaten by AE's

...ok, I gotta ask.
Why?

[Solace]

Originally Posted by Shiek927

...............What the heck? 0_0

That spoiler........you thought it was plausible Solace?

Plausible meaning it isn't far fetched. Riful is able to gauge opponents incredibly well, and honestly we don't really know the real extent of her power outside of the cutting everything to ribbons and being an adorable psycho loli. Perhaps she played a trick on the AE's by making them think Beth was her, for example. Without images and better English, it's tough to say how exactly things went down with a small paragraph of events.

It's hard to look at many of these spoilers and say "well that's possible...maybe" because there's always some kind of inconsistency. This one seemed a little more straightforward and I felt it was strong enough to be worth finally putting up the 94 thread so spoiler discussion could get underway. So far that seems to be the case, even if it is likely a fake.

On a random, related note. I kinda like Dauf. At first his character was just the muscle for Riful (and honestly quite dull - Me smash you die!), but the little bits and pieces of his personality through the chapters. His love for Riful is kinda cute, and their relationship is interesting to read.

[Ryus]

Sorry this is going to be long... again...

Originally Posted by Gooral

Firstly I would like to bring to everyone's attention something concerning Deneve, Helen and Miria. While Deneve and Helen are clearly worshiping Miria, Phantom-woman doesn't think of them much. Miria didn't give a damn about Helen being SERIOUSLY injured when Dee came with the news. She also abandoned them earlier without blink of an eye when Clare decided to leave them. Of course she didn't forbid them to come along but still...

Originally Posted by Gooral

Who said anything about panicking or rushing for help? Don't put your own words in my mouth. When Miria heard about Helen being seriously injured she didn't even twitch, there was no exclamation mark, no concern, nothing, as if she was expecting for sth like this to happen. She didn't even ask how bad this "serious injury" was (word serious doesn't say much). Every normal person would show some concern about his friends and asked what happened, even more so when she could spare 10 seconds to do that. Instead she ignored it and probably thought that Helen got what she deserved. When she heard however that Isley was killed she was startled and wanted to know more immediately. Now that is wicked. And I've thought about your arguments a-h before you've even written them (I was prepared to have an argument with Fenrir, so I thought what counter arguments he could come up with) but all of this doesn't change the fact she didn't show any concern. I'll counter them for fun though.

Well first lets review your own words:

Miria didn't give a damn about Helen being SERIOUSLY injured when Dee came with the news.

So let me ask how was anyone supposed to figure out what you meant here, you only say how Miria didn't give a damn. Plus the translation I read only said injured not SERIOUSLY... http://www.onemanga.com/Claymore/90/09/

So yes I filled in a blank... but it's one you left with an ambiguous statement. Also all I did was state two reactions normal people have when they find out a loved one is injured. #1 was panicking of which all I meant was that everything else seems unimportant and they exclude all the other incoming information (this is what I'm assuming you meant because you later state her focused expression) . #2 is trying to help and be there. Both of which are very likely things one would do when getting that type of news. So neither was meant as putting words in your mouth but to try to interpret what you meant with, what I viewed as, an ambiguous statement like the one you gave.

Next off I'd like to point out that Miria gave no signs that she was happy of the news either, so saying she didn't give a damn is stretching the facts. It is far more likely that Miria didn't interrupt since she wanted to hear more and try to figure out what happened and how she can react to it. She was staring at Dietrich waiting to hear what else Deneve had to say. Also I'd like to point out that Dietrich had the message memorized and interrupting a person repeating a memorized message isn't smart... they could then mess up.

IMHO Your interrupting Miria's expression in the wrong way and reading too much out of it. I believe Miria was giving Dietrich her undivided attention and wanted to hear more. Likely at this point she still had doubts about Dietrich, let's face it it's Miria and she sees conspiracies. In the context of what was going on Miria likely was assuming Helen and Deneve where already dead or captured. So hearing of Helen's injury could have been a trick or at the very least suspicious info. Yet she must have also been think how did she get this info to trick us with... or wondering if it was the truth.

I view Miria's and Tabitha's reaction to hearing of Isley's death as two fold, first off it was proof that Dietrich was telling the truth. There is no way the organization would trick her by giving her knowledge of a new troop of theirs. Also since the org doesn't know how good Galatea's sensing abilities are now they had no way to know Miria already suspected Isley's death. So, it would be a really bad trap if someone just came up and said bad guy x just died and Helen is injured and going that way.

Second, don't forget Miria still believes Isley has a super abyssal with him. So how did he fall? What could take on the both of them and still kill Isley? That is very important info and DOES take priority over a comrades life. Why you may ask simply put that info might be vital for the rest to survive, and the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the one. All it proves is Miria has a good head and deserves to be the leader of the ghosts, any commander who risks losing vital intel that could save everyone or could win the war for the life of just one solider is a fool and shouldn't be in command.

Next off you admitting to making an assumption as evidenced by your wording highlighted above. You are making a speculation based off the text but your not offering a why she feels this way or saying why Miria has changed her past actions of helping Helen. There is a lot missing from your argument for it to be considered a real working theory, let alone a fact. Your just say X happen Y is the likely reason and not even correlating the two together. You didn't even try to come up with a reason Miria would act that way, you just formed an opinion and moved on. Then argued for that opinion.

Also I'm sorry but if your just anticipating what the person your debating with going to say next, then your likely not truly analyzing there argument with an open mind but a closed one just ready to give a counter point. It's what a politician would do, not a philosopher. Did you state this just to make you sound smart and ready for things? To me it makes it seem that your not truly considering an argument and are likely just caring about being the winner or at the very least getting the last word in.

Now, I'm sure I'm working up a storm on your end, so let me just say here and now I'm sorry if I'm making you angry, insulting you, or misinterpreting what your saying. That is not my intent, all I want to do is get to the bottom of why your arguing for this. However all I have to work with is what you typed above and it was jumping all over the place without much supporting each point. Once again I'm sorry if I setting off any strong emotions on your end but I'm just debating with what I was given.

Originally Posted by Gooral

Ad a) True, but if someone in your family is ill you ignore him (read: piss on him) just because you're not a doctor and someone else is taking care of him anyway? I for one would show some concern and try to know more about his condition and not jump to conclusions that since there are no funeral preparations yet it's nothing THAT serious.

First off what is the "(read: piss on him)"... I don't follow. Miria never said that.

Now as you recall above I mention how a good commander would do exactly what Miria did and I'll get back to that in just a second but first... Miria knew Helen was injured and going from point a to point B for help. So let me ask before I move on, Does Miria really need to know how Helen was injured? Does she need to know that she lost a limb or an eye? or is dying in Deneve's arms? Or does she need to know about this new enemy that for all she knows will soon be targeted on the ghosts once Riful falls too?

She has one move to make with Dietrich right then and there. If she asks about Helen first what if Dietrich decides to leave after words without telling them of the new enemies? (if you recall Dietrich did just walk away and said she was done) Or should she ask about the new enemies first while Dietrich is in a talkative mood? Simply put I believe Miria knows more then enough about Helen situation (but not condition) and not nearly anything about the AF's other then their names and that they beat Isley. Later in Deneve's message she gets more info but at the point of hearing of Isleys death she only knew those two things.

Now to answer your question if someone in my family was in danger of course I'd want to know the details however that analogy fails to convey the context of what was happening... So let me fill in the blanks. If I had to pick between details of one family members health who was injured to an unknown extent (but I know where they are going and where they where) and information that could be key to the survival of the rest of my family. Then the rest of my family wins every time, hands down with no exceptions.

Originally Posted by Gooral

Ad b) They can travel as well with Helen on Deneve's shoulder so the information they're going to Cynthia doesn't specify that Helen can do it using her own legs. Also, you can't know whether Deneve would tell Miria everything or not, I would even bet that she wouldn't so that Miria wouldn't have to worry much and be even more angry with them.

"We intend" followed by "Our intent" is what Deneve said. Now that implies a non life threatening injury and consciousness to me. I suppose I could be wrong on that but that's how I view it. Also Dietrich did say she owned Helen and Deneve, so she would have said something if Helen was dying... right? Her debt was to Helen and Deneve, so if Helen was dying then letting Helen's friends know could be the only way that they could get to her in time to say goodbye to her friends in this life. That isn't something one would withhold especially if you had a debt to the dying person, it would be her last chance to say her final words to her friends.

Deneve withholding info so someone wouldn't worry... ok... if you say so. Sure Deneve wouldn't ask for help if Helen's life was on the line just so Miria wouldn't worry. That just sounds too funny and so unlike Deneve, even if the odds of the help working was as low as a billions to one. Helen is everything to Deneve.

Originally Posted by Gooral

Ad c) You've written the same thing in a)

Not quite. In 3 I was referring more to how a solider fighting a battle in one place reacts to bad info. Either it is the way it is or there is a request for help aka backup. In short none of the key words a solider would send out for an SOS where in Deneve's message. When in a) I meant more that Miria could figure out on her own that she could help.

Your right that I could have combined the two though and/or reworded it.

Originally Posted by Gooral

Ad d) That would be a good argument if I was saying that Miria should go and help them or send someone that would do it for her but since I've never said anything like that it has nothing to do with my post.

Sorry as I said above in your original post you only had one sentence saying Miria didn't give a Damn. I could quite figure out what you meant, simple reaction or rushing off to save the day. D was in there in case you meant more then just a reaction.

Originally Posted by Gooral

Ad e) Again, it has nothing to do with what I've said.

Again it was because in the first part of you argument you gave me no clues as to what you meant by give a damn.

Originally Posted by Gooral

Ad f) Can't deny that and honestly it was very stupid of her. Gathering all injured in one place made it easier for AB to kill them all in one go. Besides, she wasted time on that instead of attacking AB which at the same time would protect the three because male AB would have to worry about Miria, not some half-dead, weak (not even single digits) warriors.
I have no idea what changed but it's clear to me that Miria favors Clare and sometimes ignores others.

Sadly I don't see what Clare has to do with Miria just finding out about Helen... am I missing a comparison here. When has there been a time when Miria had to make a strategic decision that effected all the ghosts when Clare's life was on the line?

I agree that them being in one spot and so close to the male AB was very odd and kinda dumb... have a speculation but it's kinda irrelevant here.

Originally Posted by Gooral

Ad g) Yep, at least not much. She worships Miria only, the rest can just die. Seriously though, Miria was doing the talking, Tabitha is just her pawn, she wouldn't dare to ask anything even more so if Miria that knew Helen much much longer didn't either.

That's a logical assumption if your assuming Miria didn't care about Helen. Sadly I see more going on here (see above statements), so I see Tabitha as a good intelligent officer for Miria. She was likely debating what is going on here just like how I believe Miria was too.

Originally Posted by Gooral

Ad h) Irrelevant. I doubt Miria is so dull-witted that she needs an hour to process information. The fact remains that she didn't show any concern when she heard Helen was injured, even if I'm overreacting it says something about Miria.

I don't know... you seem to be fogetting that the last info Miria got was that Isley had a super abyssal with him. Miria is probably trying to figure out WTF is going on... who was wrong and about what and/or what has changed...

If you recall Miria was at a loss for words... All she could say was "Isley was defeated" then surmise that Riful would be next. Yet this is an unknown enemy doing the work that she can't sense coming and she doesn't know that they can only hunt one target and only after getting a flesh sample.

There is a lot of unknowns of Miria here. So how she reacts will speak louder than anything else she could do or say.

Originally Posted by Gooral

I will probably answer the rest when I get back.

Look forward to it.

[zato_1one]

@Ryus

I suggest to remove that link before you get an infraction.

[Gooral]

Well, I've never mentioned anything about Miria's obligation to go for the rescue if she considered them as friends and that was what you assumed (and honestly I don't know why, so that it would be easier to argue or because you wanted to write a longer post?). Anyway, I see where the problem lies. We're both biased about Miria, you worship her and I don't like her anymore. So we both interpret the same dialog differently in a way that it meets our expectations. I can't be objective about her but that's what makes our discussion interesting IMO . And no, at no point did I feel angry at you. I hope I didn't offend you (and won't) either .

Originally Posted by Ryus

(...) Next off I'd like to point out that Miria gave no signs that she was happy of the news either, so saying she didn't give a damn is stretching the facts. It is far more likely that Miria didn't interrupt since she wanted to hear more and try to figure out what happened and how she can react to it. She was staring at Dietrich waiting to hear what else Deneve had to say. Also I'd like to point out that Dietrich had the message memorized and interrupting a person repeating a memorized message isn't smart... they could then mess up. (...)

Maybe I am stretching the facts but giving no sings that someone is happy and at the same time giving no signs that he's unhappy usually means that he doesn't give a damn, it makes no difference to him and that part of the information he considers as irrelevant. Even if it could be defined as neutral approach it would still say sth about a "friend".
- Your friend is injured, blah, blah, blah, there's going to be a storm, blah, blah, blah...
- Wait. Could you say it again? There's going to be a storm ?!
That's how I see Miria's reaction.

As for the "seriously injured" vs. "injured", well that doesn't change much in our discussion, if Helen only cut her finger it wouldn't be called "an injury" and she wouldn't have to go to Cynthia in hopes of getting better (in hopes, i.e. it was serious enough that they didn't know wheter they could heal it or not).

(...) let's face it it's Miria and she sees conspiracies. In the context of what was going on Miria likely was assuming Helen and Deneve where already dead or captured. So hearing of Helen's injury could have been a trick or at the very least suspicious info. Yet she must have also been think how did she get this info to trick us with... or wondering if it was the truth.

That would be the more reason to know sth more, to confirm that Dee was telling the truth. For example if she asked her where was she injured and Dee hesitated with an answer or answered too quickly Miria would have a reason to be on her guard. Although I doubt Miria was thinking that way unless she considered Helen and Deneve as useless, pathetic cowards that would give away Miria's location to the enemy. If that was the case it would only prove my point that she didn't think of Helen and Deneve much.
And yes, I'm speculating without solid proofs but so are you . Most of your first part of your post proves that. The fact remains however that Miria didn't even twitch when she heard about Helen and we both know how sensitive and uncalm she can be when her friend's life is concerned (see: Hilda). To me it proved that at most, she considers Helen and Deneve as comrades in arms not as friends.

First off what is the "(read: piss on him)"...

That's just my way of saying that ignoring someone might be considered as pissing on someone, i.e. disrespect someone. It was an exaggeration on my part.

Does Miria really need to know how Helen was injured?

Of course not but Miria isn't a Volcan, she's not a pragmatist either (at least when it comes to her friends). And she didn't have to necessarily ask about Helen's injury, some sign of concern on her face for example would suffice.

She has one move to make with Dietrich right then and there. If she asks about Helen first what if Dietrich decides to leave after words without telling them of the new enemies?

And what if Miria farted and offended Dee? Or what if Dee decided to flee when she saw 3 warriors? Do you honestly think that if Miria asked about Helen Dee would walk away? Dee had no chances of surviving if she wanted to confront Miria, Dee knew it, Miria knew it and since Dee came all the way to pass the message it would be stupid to think that by interrupting her Miria would scare her away or offend her.

As for the family analogy, you wouldn't have to pick between, why should you? You could do both, asking takes 10 seconds as I stated earlier. And information about Isley, while shocking didn't change Miria's plan at all, why should it? Unless she intended to seek help from him.

"We intend" followed by "Our intent" is what Deneve said. Now that implies a non life threatening injury and consciousness to me.

Someone without legs can have an intent, can't he? And just because Helen wasn't dying Miria shouldn't be worrying about her friend? Don't think so. It was bad enough that Cynthia's help was needed.

[Ryuken]

Originally Posted by Gooral

Someone without legs can have an intent, can't he? And just because Helen wasn't dying Miria shouldn't be worrying about her friend? Don't think so. It was bad enough that Cynthia's help was needed.

I still don't know why she fainted after that, Cynthia I mean.

[Ryus]

Originally Posted by Gooral

Anyway, I see where the problem lies. We're both biased about Miria, you worship her and I don't like her anymore.

Worship is too strong a word... since I worship the twin goddess Teresa and Clare

I would say I respect Miria but that is as far as I'd go... personality wise. Looks wise she's one of my favs but not my favorite.

[Charmeya]

Originally Posted by little_angel

so the new spoiler is so mysterious ..

coz Daff get killed by the feeders

Dauf really gets trough a hard Time, it seems... ( assuming he survives ).

The Awakened Alicia sliced his Arm to Shreds and even better - he can't shot down Beth even tough she holds the Concentration for Alicia's Human Sanity.

She can evade him while concentrating. Puuuh these two Twins got so dangerous...

I wonder if Beth can even attack while concentrating. Dauf is strong, but he is wounded badly.
And at the End of the Chapter he got shot by a heavy Projectile...


ah yes and the "Thing" Rafaela and Lucilia formed is a damn Piece of Sh...

Looks like it's only a Troublemaker. A Pity. I expected something more interesting...