Muv-Luv Franchise - Game & General Discussion

[Wild Goose]

Originally Posted by Esg

Oh please Toth. Do you have some kind of urge to bone your sister? If not you shouldn't be all that bothered by people being squicked out by incest. I'd like to drop this subject as quickly as humanly possible.

Not me, because I was a Yuiya shipper before, and now ship Yuiyacest.

As Destined_Fate insisted almost a year ago, it is wrong to view the series while maintaining RL views. Therefore, the real life disapproval of incestuous relationships should not be maintained while discussing/viewing/reading Total Eclipse. Ergo, it is wrong to say, based on RL beliefs and views, that Yui's incestuous feelings for Yuuya are abhorrent.

(As for whether they're related: Again, we're give no other evidence except for Heineman, and frankly the man has shown that he can be a dick when he chooses. I would not make a case reliant solely on his testimony.)

Also, while I can't speak for AMT, my objections to Destined_Fate are more to the hypocrisy that he's shown.

Thankfully thats averted as she looses the Tortilla Chips

What tortilla chips?

[Esg]

(As for whether they're related: Again, we're give no other evidence except for Heineman, and frankly the man has shown that he can be a dick when he chooses. I would not make a case reliant solely on his testimony.)

It's made pretty obvious seeing how yuuyas mother and Yui and Yuyya's dad worked with one another. They have similar names and the fact Top Guns mother had the same stew Yui knew how to make seemed like a clue as is.

What tortilla chips?

You need to get on /m/ more

[issuzark]

Originally Posted by Esg

You need to get on /m/ more

/m/? You mean 4chan in general?

[Alastor Mobius Toth]

Originally Posted by Esg

Oh please Toth. Do you have some kind of urge to bone your sister? If not you shouldn't be all that bothered by people being squicked out by incest. I'd like to drop this subject as quickly as humanly possible

You're misunderstanding something; I'm not squicked out by it. To the contrary, I'm pointing out why it can occur, and why Destined_Fate's assumptions are somewhat high-handed.

Frankly, I don't remotely give a shit if people are related or even the same gender if they love each other.

Also, I'll just note that the irony is in that the incest part never comes up in the VN, from the sheer fact that Yuuya never learned of it. GG age. Making troll moves and not following up on it...I'm cool with trolling, but if you start it, you gotta finish it...but I digress.

I'm assuming tortilla would have something to do with more reaction TE VN shots?

[Wild Goose]

Originally Posted by Esg

It's made pretty obvious seeing how yuuyas mother and Yui and Yuyya's dad worked with one another. They have similar names and the fact Top Guns mother had the same stew Yui knew how to make seemed like a clue as is.

Your evidence is circumstantial. The point I am trying to make here is that all evidence that Yuuya and Yui are half siblings is highly circumstantial, and the case primarily hinges on the testimony of a witness who has been demonstrated to be unreliable and willing to twist the truth to suit his own purposes. I would not attempt to present a case with the evidence we have - not even as an essay, let alone going to court.

(I'll allow that on the balance of probabilities, Yuuya and Yui are most likely related, but age has not explicitly said so, merely dropped plenty of hints while still leaving things just vague enough that they could backpedal if need be.)

You need to get on /m/ more

No, you brought up the meme, and when pressed for an explanation, the onus is on you to explain the meme and phrasings that you use.

Also, how fucking hard can it be to click the "Quote Post" button?

[Esg]

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

Your evidence is circumstantial. The point I am trying to make here is that all evidence that Yuuya and Yui are half siblings is highly circumstantial, and the case primarily hinges on the testimony of a witness who has been demonstrated to be unreliable and willing to twist the truth to suit his own purposes. I would not attempt to present a case with the evidence we have - not even as an essay, let alone going to court.

(I'll allow that on the balance of probabilities, Yuuya and Yui are most likely related, but age has not explicitly said so, merely dropped plenty of hints while still leaving things just vague enough that they could backpedal if need be.)

Yeah but you don't have anything disproving him either or anything putting his statement in doubt.

No, you brought up the meme, and when pressed for an explanation, the onus is on you to explain the meme and phrasings that you use.

Also, how fucking hard can it be to click the "Quote Post" button?

Tortilla Chips= Total Eclipse it rhymes

Why are you getting so frustrated over this of all things hot damn son

[Wild Goose]

Originally Posted by Esg

Yeah but you don't have anything disproving him either or anything putting his statement in doubt.

That's why circumstantial evidence is so hated by anyone who's actually studied law properly. Also, I'm going to quote something which I don't think you understood:

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

...the case primarily hinges on the testimony of a witness who has been demonstrated to be unreliable and willing to twist the truth to suit his own purposes.

Do I have anything explicitly disproving Heineman? No. However, by his actions, Heineman is not a reliable witness. In court, a case reliant on his testimony would not be a case I'd want to argue, because of how weak it is. Any decent first year law student could demolish a case built on his foundation.

The irony is that while we're arguing over how reliable and convincing the evidence presented and Heineman's testimony is, I myself ship Yuiyacest.

Tortilla Chips= Total Eclipse it rhymes

Why are you getting so frustrated over this of all things hot damn son

Probably because the way of Anime Suki's denizens is to bring up shit, then refuse to defend or explain their points, and shift the effort to the other party. It's something I've noted that appears endemic to this place, over the last seven years I've been here.

And also, unlike certain persons *cough*Kaijo*cough*, I actually studied law for real. So I'm quite annoyed by people who don't lay things out properly as they should.

[Destined_Fate]

Wild Goose you're making this personal and taking my words out of context and twisting them to suit your support for incest. I suggest you stop, you getting angry over this isn't going to change my view on this incest thing and that Yui needs to get over Yuuya now as they're siblings and she knows it now. She cannot claim ignorance to it anymore.

I also don't appreciate you stalking my user page and leaving that comment. Get a grip already, not everyone supports incest like you.

[Alastor Mobius Toth]

*gets some popcorn*

Oh, this will be good.

Also, your notion that a certain character should so something on the basis of your own believes is as silly, as it is equally selfish.

People do not work that way. If they did, we wouldn't have 2000 years plus of religions and ethnic massacres. GG, now go back and try again.

[Destined_Fate]

Once again, you're also making false assumptions to try and pick a fight with your hostility. I'm above that and I'm not stupid enough to fall for your bait. I suggest dropping it as if this continues the mods will put their foot down before it gets out of hand or if it does get out of hand.

[Alastor Mobius Toth]

I'm not being hostile, I'm pointing out that you're acting incredibly conceited in regards to your moral high-ground, high-horse. If you take that as hostility, then it is, frankly, your problem.

There is nothing to support your arguments (within the established framework of Muv-Luv universe), rendering them flat. Yui's attraction is not explained as Yuuya being her brother; it is a completely unrelated piece of information revealed by a person who passively resents Yui's father. Her attitude was consistently developed through the LN, anime and VN as being romantic in nature (girl meets boy, girl falls in love); Yui's problems in recognizing her feelings lie in her suffering from PTSD, not some abstract subconscious thing. Uncovering new information regarding her love's parentage does not immediately change the nature of such bond, because that is not how the bloody psychology works. Hell, the incest angle is incredibly vague anyway, because Yui drops off the radar towards the end, and Yuuya never learns of the fact.

And yes, saying that someone should act in a given way because morality/society/etc says so. (as you have, quite literally, written before), is conceited. That's because you're not this person, you do not have the same problems, issues etc,etc, and therefore you have no, absolutely none, right to say how other people should behave. This is one of the fundamental ideas behind the concept of freedom in the human race.

If that's not what you wanted to say, then frankly, your phrasing has failed.
Have a nice day.

[Destined_Fate]

As I said drop it, you're being hostile in my eyes and are attacking me as a person over this and it shows how little you care about what I think with you saying "You have nothing to support"...

Thus we aren't doing this. It takes two or more to tango, consider me not joining in as I know exactly how this will turn out based upon yours and Wild Goose's recent posts alone.

[Alastor Mobius Toth]

It is a statement, based on rational analysis of the matter at hand. It does not have a value by itself, it states facts, and the facts say that your arguments are without valid basis. How is that an attack? Or how am I responsible for this?


*shrug*

On a completely related topic:

Well played tags. Well played. It took me for too long to notice that.

[Wild Goose]

Damn, I kinda wanted to have the last word there. Oh, well. This is what happens when you sit down and type without an outline, and then start revising, and editing... you can take the man out from Law , but you can't take Law out from the man.

Basically: Goose does yet another tl;dr post. Right, let's be about it.

...and because I have tomorrow off and had nothing better to do, here's an audio version.

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Wild Goose you're making this personal and taking my words out of context and twisting them to suit your support for incest. I suggest you stop, you getting angry over this isn't going to change my view on this incest thing and that Yui needs to get over Yuuya now as they're siblings and she knows it now. She cannot claim ignorance to it anymore.

No, you are making this personal. I point out the hypocrisy in your actions and say that you should abide by the yardstick that you use. Your response is instead to attack me, by insinuating that this argument - in which I've been coldly polite towards you, I might add - is due to my support of incest, and not because I disagree with your opinion and your hypocrisy.

I'm reminded of what Lord Aquitaine said in Furies of Calderon: "Ad hominem is a notoriously weak logical argument. And is usually used to distract the focus of a discussion—to move it from an indefensible point and to attack the opponent."

And how, may I ask, am I taking things out of context? In that discussion, DezoPenguin and I noted the racism displayed, and you told us we were wrong for trying to force RL views into a setting that is vastly different. Yet in this case, you are also doing the same. I'll lay it out for you:

Scenario A:
Wild Goose: "Racism is wrong (RL view), as displayed in Total Eclipse (fictional setting)."

Scenario B:
Destined_Fate: "Yui's incestuous feelings are wrong (RL view) as displayed in Total Eclipse (fictional setting)."

I will quote yet again your statement on RL views and Total Eclipse:

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

And again you're wrong for trying to force you RL views in a setting that is vastly different.

As I have said earlier, if my opposition to the racism of Total Eclipse was wrong, because I was forcing a view I hold in Real Life onto the series, then by the same yardstick, your opposition of Yui's incestuous feelings towards Yuuya is also wrong, because you are likewise forcing a view you hold in Real Life onto the series.

You cannot have your cake and eat it. Your opinion is that Yui's feelings for Yuuya are wrong. That is an RL view you are forcing on this setting. That is the same as my RL view that the racism seen in Total Eclipse is wrong. Therefore, since you have earlier said that it is wrong to force RL views onto this setting, both our views are wrong.

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

I also don't appreciate you stalking my user page and leaving that comment. Get a grip already, not everyone supports incest like you.

Seriously, you claim I'm stalking you? There's a link to your profile that pops up if I click on your username. The profile and visitor messages are public, and are not hidden. The link itself says "View Public Profile." (Emphasis mine.) I'm using an alternative, public means of sending you a message - a message that, to the best of my knowledge, you have not replied to, since I've got nothing on my public profile. This is a method that is publicly available, and is enabled by default for all users of this forum. That isn't stalking.

(If I'd gotten your email address (which is private) or your telephone number or your house address for wherever you live, now that would be stalking. It's evident that I have done none of these things.)

Furthermore, I find your condescending attitude to be off-putting. I am aware that my support of such relationships is in a minority, but you do not seem aware that your opinion is likewise not universal. It is symptomatic of a further hypocrisy I see in you - your conduct and posts imply to an outside reader that only your opinion is valid, and the opinions of others are not as valid as yours, if they disagree with you.

You have the right to your opinion; likewise I too have the right to my opinion, and we shall defend our opinions to the best of our ability. Defend, not disparage.

Note that throughout this entire debate, I have not disparaged your opinion, or called it wrong. I have simply laid out how the situation could have happened, and then I have been addressing you on your hypocrisy.

Also, I must disagree with you on yet another regard: this debate isn't really about incest or not, or your disapproval or my support of the said pairing - incest as a whole is merely a tangent, one which I believe you are raising up in an attempt to shift goalposts and focus. I also find a certain ironic amusement that for all the drama over Yui's incestuous feelings for Yuuya, what is shown in the VN is that she tries to act properly, she doesn't make any love confessions or the like, and gives Yuuya the family sword. So yes, she is doing her best to try and get over Yuuya. What more do you want from her?

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Once again, you're also making false assumptions to try and pick a fight with your hostility. I'm above that and I'm not stupid enough to fall for your bait. I suggest dropping it as if this continues the mods will put their foot down before it gets out of hand or if it does get out of hand.

I'm really not sure if you're addressing this to AMT or myself, but I would just like to point out that so far? Most of the hostility and aggression is coming from your side.

I'm just methodically laying out arguments, the way I was taught to present a case, and drawing attention to your conduct. Meanwhile, you have been attacking my person.

Note that throughout this, throughout all of my posts, I have been arguing in the legal sense. I present an argument, I present my points, whereas you instead have not chosen to respond to me on my points, but instead you have been attacking me. And now you accuse us of making personal attacks.

By your conduct you are known.

-=-

Right, some personal thoughts here.

At the end of the day, the heart loves as it will. It is not beholden to the mind. It cannot be commanded in the way the mind commands the body. The heart feels as it feels, the heart loves as it loves. Yui loves Yuuya. Of this, there can be no argument.

Yui, then, is left trying to understand the nature of her love for Yuuya and their relationship. It began with harsh words and mutual acrimony in the Yukon hangars. The hate shifted to philia, on the bloodstained and battle-scarred plains of Kamchatka. And when they returned to Alaska, Yui perceived her love as changing to eros, and prepared to pursue this relationship in that regard - until a sudden shock upset her mental balance and view of how things went.

And now, in light of this revelation, Yui - damaged, emotionally scarred Yui, Yui who is experiencing her first love, Yui for the first time in years is happy - a condition that scares her - Yui tries to do the best she can, to try and understand whether this love is philia or eros.

But of this, there is no doubt: Yui's love for Yuuya exists.

The heart loves as it will.

[dmaxzero]

.... With all due respect the heart is a muscle that pumps blood. The concept of "heart" as an emotional handler, is still a mindset, thus theoretically can be controlled. That we can´t or we choose not to is a whole different thing.

And that´s all.

[Wild Goose]

Originally Posted by dmaxzero

.... With all due respect the heart is a muscle that pumps blood. The concept of "heart" as an emotional handler, is still a mindset, thus theoretically can be controlled. That we can´t or we choose not to is a whole different thing.

And that´s all.

Would you have preferred it if I referred to the emotional liver then? Since in the Middle East it's believed that the emotional/romantic center of the person is the liver. In Bahasa it's kinda confusing, because the word we use is "hati", which technically means liver, but in practically every colloquial use, hati is the emotional/romantic heart, while "jantung" refers to the organ itself.

But that aside, regardless of whatever term or where you believe the emotional/romantic center of the person is, the fact is that it's separate from the mind. Love is not always a logical thinking thing. Just because we conceptualise the heart as being the emotion center does not mean we can control the aforesaid conceptualisation. Emotions - and love - are funny, that way.

Having said that, I had thought that it was obvious that I was referring to the heart as the concept of the emotional center of the person, and not to the heart as an organ critical to sustaining life. I suppose I'll have to work on making that clearer, somehow. Maybe something was lost in text, as opposed to voice delivery.

Edit: Also, I've been shipping incest couples since before it was fashionable. I don't need to use anyone or twist anything to support my incest yay shipping. That's my kink - loving heterosexual xouples in a relationship based on mutual love and consent. As kinks go, it's smalltime.

[Esg]

Originally Posted by Alastor Mobius Toth

I'm not being hostile, I'm pointing out that you're acting incredibly conceited in regards to your moral high-ground, high-horse. If you take that as hostility, then it is, frankly, your problem.

There is nothing to support your arguments (within the established framework of Muv-Luv universe), rendering them flat. Yui's attraction is not explained as Yuuya being her brother; it is a completely unrelated piece of information revealed by a person who passively resents Yui's father. Her attitude was consistently developed through the LN, anime and VN as being romantic in nature (girl meets boy, girl falls in love); Yui's problems in recognizing her feelings lie in her suffering from PTSD, not some abstract subconscious thing. Uncovering new information regarding her love's parentage does not immediately change the nature of such bond, because that is not how the bloody psychology works. Hell, the incest angle is incredibly vague anyway, because Yui drops off the radar towards the end, and Yuuya never learns of the fact.

And yes, saying that someone should act in a given way because morality/society/etc says so. (as you have, quite literally, written before), is conceited. That's because you're not this person, you do not have the same problems, issues etc,etc, and therefore you have no, absolutely none, right to say how other people should behave. This is one of the fundamental ideas behind the concept of freedom in the human race.

If that's not what you wanted to say, then frankly, your phrasing has failed.
Have a nice day.

Well logically Incest isn't exactly healthy so you trying to play off the morality isn't for everyone isn't factoring in logic.

[Alastor Mobius Toth]

It heightens the probability of alignments that are genetically recessive in nature. However, scientifically, it's only that: heightened risk.

The story that incest is not healthy is only partially true; repeated incest, to a very big degree, across multiple generations, is very much unhealthy. Occasional "cross" (which happens both with humans and animals) is not particularly abnormal. The children famous for their illness/defects as result of incest came mostly from royal families were incest was almost endemic, sometimes even encouraged, and not accidental. Cases like Hapsburg, were people were encouraged to marry their nieces and the like to keep family titles in family's hands and the like.

So potential children of Yui and Yuuya wouldn't be in any more significant danger than you, me, or any other random person (especially when we consider that they aren't as closely related as proper siblings. They only share the same father). Now, if this sort of inbreeding repeated through several generations, then yeah, it wouldn't be healthy.


On off note: I remember reading somewhere that human genetic diversity has actually greatly decreased over millennia, usually as result of various catastrophes (especially Toba), which killed a substantial amount of our ancestors, leaving very small, tight-knit communities to rebuild. Some had speculated that the taboo against incest that many culture have is related towards keeping a communities genetic pool viable, as were the traditions that often forced younger sons to resettle somewhere else. Just a random trivia.

[Wild Goose]

How the hell did we get sucked into a debate on incest? Right, Destined_Fate.

I think I've said all I want to say to him, whether he'll read it or not - especially since my opposition to his opinion was due to his hypocrisy. (Ironically, had he just said, "Yeah, that's what I believed then, and I've changed my mind now," not only would I have been fine with that, I would not have a causus belli to proceed. But of course, as humans, it's very hard for us to admit to changing our minds. I'm reminded of the Mass Effect ending bullshit.)

Look, while I ship incest couples, regarding Yuuya and Yui I actually rooted for them as a normal couple, and figured that was what the show was building up to. Then suddenly outta the blue Heineman pulls that card outta his pocket. Sorry, Kouki - while it is probably true, you also succeeded in portraying Heine as a dick who'd say anything for his own agenda, so the trustworthiness of that statement goes down the drain. I do not trust Heineman. Now, if it had been Iwaya on the other hand, I might be inclined to believe it, given that Iwaya and Tadamasa were bros.

(This is the difference in reliability of witnesses, by the way.)

I mean, come on! Characters in the VN lie all the damned time! Look how Sandek manages to convince Yui that the US is behind the RLF attack and the berserk Scarlet Twins, and how he convinces Yuuya to die (except Yuuya refuses to die).

But I know we're going to get dragged into another discussion on what makes a witness reliable.

I think I had better lay it out:

1. I believe that the VN's statements, using Heine as the witness, are correct and true and canon.
2. I also do not trust Heine to be a reliable witness.
3. Personally in his shoes, I'd want to keep that Jap bitch who was such a racist shit to my One True Love's Son the fuck away from him.
4. Best way of doing that? Tell that Jap that she's related to him. Screws up her mind AND keeps her nasty claws outta my One True Love's Son. :drevil: >:3

Oh, and one last thing - Yuuya and Yui are half-siblings. If a relationship between them is so wrong... what does it mean for the Jewish people, who are descended from Abraham and Sarah, a pair of married half-siblings?

[Shimuzu]

so guys, anyone know if there's gonna be a follow up VN for TE or anything in continuation for the TE universe? :P