[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[SeagullCrazy]

Originally Posted by Arachanox

"Subjective truth." Let's call it "effective truth." Let's say Kinzo is really dead, but no one knows this fact (no one, not even Krauss; it's the morning before they find him dead). Everyone on the island assumes Kinzo is still alive; therefore, everyone will act and function as if Kinzo was still alive. Effectively, Kinzo is still alive. Therefore, the agreed-upon truth is "effective truth." It is broken when Kinzo's body is found, though.

Now, let's say everyone assumes something that cannot be observed. Say, the existence of the gold (assuming no one finds it at all). If everyone assumes it doesn't exist, then no one will search for it, and "it won't be found" (excluding accident). Effectively, the gold doesn't exist. Effective truth.

If there is a single dissenter, however, then the possibility that the gold exists still exists, since that someone might seek it and find it. Not an effective truth.

All of those who met at the family conference recognized the existence of Kinzo!
Therefore, Kinzo exists?

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

I... don't really see how this explains why Battler was able to overcome Dlanor with it. Or why only someone who's reached the truth can use it.

I think you can only use actual gold truth in Beato's game to the extent that you can pose mysteries that are internally consistent with her game. Her game is complex enough that you probably can't do that unless you actually know the whole truth.

At the beginning of the fight, Battler had been given a mystery to solve ("Kinzo's running around, prove me wrong.") In that situation he didn't have the right to use red truth, and blue truth wouldn't do the job. However, he did know that Kinzo actually was dead since Lambda told him earlier. So he constructed a "mystery" for Erika and posed it right back at her ("This is Kinzo's corpse, prove me wrong.") By the act of posing a mystery, Battler moved to the witch's side and became able to use red truth to set up his mystery. At that point his victory was assured because Kinzo really was dead, and he could destroy any blue theory Erika proposed about it with red.

As Kanon said in EP6, the witch's job is to pose mysteries, not solve them.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Renall

And this permits him to break the rules of the trial why? It does not logically follow. Bern and Lambda act like that's it, they're done, nothing to be done about this. So merely by reaching the truth, he slips out of a red and blue trap? Rules no longer apply to him now? The premises of the trial only worked so long as he was powerless, and now that he isn't, he can just do what he wants? So... what does that say for the very next game, where that doesn't seem to work again?

I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about here. Which rule of the trial has he supposedly broken? Once the "gold flash" appears on him, he is accepted as a full witch, and given the right to present red text. But that only puts him on the same level as Bern and Lambda.

The gold text is a rule that has always applied to this game. "You can't trust any scenes, but they may count as hints" is something you could guess back in EP2.

Originally Posted by Renall

Behavior of this nature is unsporting and ruins the character of the discussion. Since he doesn't know, he's being disruptive. Even if he is the head translator, that behavior should not be acceptable or tolerated.

I ask you again to calm down. In case you haven't noticed, I have been insulted in almost every post in the last few pages, yet I have done nothing except reveal my theory at my own pace. I don't want to fight with anyone, but you're making that very difficult by being so hostile. Please don't tell me "his behavior should not be tolerated" is not hostile.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Arachanox

It may appear unsporting and disruptive to you, but from his perspective he is trying to prod us along only by minuscule fractions while leaving out any big hints or clues. So he is forced to show restraint and to act a bit anal by withholding information in that he's -trying- to tell us something without actually saying it.

Again, if he doesn't actually have the truth then we're still in a win-win situation like I explained earlier.

This is a forum, it has rules, and it has community standards. As our reactions clearly show, the thread has derailed off-topic. And no, saying "Yes, but by responding we are the ones who do it" does not excuse him for starting it.

All he has to do is get it all out there at once. Then, agree or disagree, he will have put it forth, and everything will be back on topic. It's his reluctance and trolling which are creating the present situation.

I'd love to get back on topic, and I'd love to discuss his solution to everything. He just needs to present it.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

I ask you again to calm down. In case you haven't noticed, I have been insulted in almost every post in the last few pages, yet I have done nothing except reveal my theory at my own pace. I don't want to fight with anyone, but you're making that very difficult by being so hostile. Please don't tell me "his behavior should not be tolerated" is not hostile.

Please do not mischaracterize me as the one causing the disruption in the thread. I have already reported, so I guess I'll shut up now and hope someone not involved in this derail can look at things objectively.

[Arachanox]

Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy

All of those who met at the family conference recognized the existence of Kinzo!
Therefore, Kinzo exists?

Of course Kinzo exists. Everyone recognized this fact in their own way. Natsuhi thought "oh yes, a dead body somewhere" and Kyrie thought "maybe up in his room?"

Or: Perhaps they saw his corpse at the conference?

Or: not everyone on the island was at the conference, therefore, not everyone accepted it.

Or: you could assume name/title trickery is at work.

[Arachanox]

Originally Posted by Renall

This is a forum, it has rules, and it has community standards. As our reactions clearly show, the thread has derailed off-topic. And no, saying "Yes, but by responding we are the ones who do it" does not excuse him for starting it.

All he has to do is get it all out there at once. Then, agree or disagree, he will have put it forth, and everything will be back on topic. It's his reluctance and trolling which are creating the present situation.

I'd love to get back on topic, and I'd love to discuss his solution to everything. He just needs to present it.

Please do not mischaracterize me as the one causing the disruption in the thread. I have already reported, so I guess I'll shut up now and hope someone not involved in this derail can look at things objectively.

As far as I can tell he hasn't insulted anyone, and he is merely showing us his theory in his own way. If you don't like this and bring up issue with it, then yes, you are a part of the "we respond and do it to ourselves" thing. The conversation has been proceeding peacefully the way I see it until people began to bring up an issue with the way he wants to talk.

In what way does his actions specifically break any forum rule?

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

As Kanon said in EP6, the witch's job is to pose mysteries, not solve them.

Ah, okay, I understand. That makes sense.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

The gold text is a rule that has always applied to this game. "You can't trust any scenes, but they may count as hints" is something you could guess back in EP2.

I'll accept this, okay.

But how does it prove Shkannontrice? You still haven't gone into detail on that.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

In case you haven't noticed, I have been insulted in almost every post in the last few pages

Yes, well, there's a reason for that.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Ah, okay, I understand. That makes sense.

I guess you could call this tactic "turning over the chessboard", although probably not the way Kyrie was imagining it.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Arachanox

As far as I can tell he hasn't insulted anyone, and he is merely showing us his theory in his own way. If you don't like this an bring up issue with it, then yes, you are a part of the "we respond and do it to ourselves" thing. The conversation has been proceeding peacefully the way I see it until people began to bring up an issue with the way he wants to talk.

In what way does his actions specifically break any forum rule?

He is intentionally aggravating people by treating them with disrespect, then acting like they are overreacting to his childish behavior. As I said, I've reported it and the moderator will do whatever it is the moderator does.

The reason you are not clearlyseeing a violation of forum rules is because they are being carefully skirted in order to continue the behavior without being blatant about it. Intentionally aggravating people, then playing the victim when they ask you for what you have teased, is not conducive to discussion.

He is refusing to post the full text of his theory, which prevents anyone from arguing with him. If someone does raise a point to the theory, he says "Oh, well I haven't gotten to that part yet." He can and will continue to do this for as long as it is permitted. It is an excuse that prevents him from being wrong. If everyone did this, nobody would be able to discuss anything. We aren't children, we aren't timid, we've gotten hundreds of pages with only a few heated debates, we can handle a theory and we can handle the destruction of our own theories.

All I'm asking is the same courtesy I have always been given, with the same understanding that once I advance something it's fair game. That was, I believe, how the thread was meant to work? Correct me if not.

[SeagullCrazy]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

I ask you again to calm down. In case you haven't noticed, I have been insulted in almost every post in the last few pages, yet I have done nothing except reveal my theory at my own pace.

Two things: I don't think its right to constantly bash chrono, but at the same time I think it's okay to suggest chrono's theory is wrong. In other words, we can still argue over whether his theory makes sense without insulting him every 2 posts. And I want to get back on topic, too.

[Renall]

That's my only objection: I can't suggest his theory is wrong until I know what it is. I can't accept it as right either. I can't do anything until I have it all, especially when he keeps saying there's more to it that's required to understand it.

[Arachanox]

Originally Posted by Renall

He is intentionally aggravating people by treating them with disrespect, then acting like they are overreacting to his childish behavior. As I said, I've reported it and the moderator will do whatever it is the moderator does.

The reason you are not clearlyseeing a violation of forum rules is because they are being carefully skirted in order to continue the behavior without being blatant about it. Intentionally aggravating people, then playing the victim when they ask you for what you have teased, is not conducive to discussion.

He is refusing to post the full text of his theory, which prevents anyone from arguing with him. If someone does raise a point to the theory, he says "Oh, well I haven't gotten to that part yet." He can and will continue to do this for as long as it is permitted. It is an excuse that prevents him from being wrong. If everyone did this, nobody would be able to discuss anything. We aren't children, we aren't timid, we've gotten hundreds of pages with only a few heated debates, we can handle a theory and we can handle the destruction of our own theories.

All I'm asking is the same courtesy I have always been given, with the same understanding that once I advance something it's fair game. That was, I believe, how the thread was meant to work? Correct me if not.

I think I can see where you are coming from, and I apologize if I seem biased or naïve, but the bits of information that have come out of chrono and the people responding to him have actually gotten me thinking about new concepts I hadn't thought about before.

Since in this way he has helped me, it is only natural that I would see no insults coming from him and would stick up for him.

However, I continue to hold the position that he is *forced* to act the way he is. In my opinion, he is not doing it to cause trouble, to act elitist, or to treat us like children. He is trying to get us to realize some of the things he has realized (which he believes are correct), and telling us directly (if they are correct) would ruin the thinking-part of the game for us. And as I said before, even if he's wrong it still makes us think (as in my case).

That's all.

[chronotrig]

Spoiler for chrono:

He is refusing to post the full text of his theory, which prevents anyone from arguing with him. If someone does raise a point to the theory, he says "Oh, well I haven't gotten to that part yet." He can and will continue to do this for as long as it is permitted. It is an excuse that prevents him from being wrong. If everyone did this, nobody would be able to discuss anything. We aren't children, we aren't timid, we've gotten hundreds of pages with only a few heated debates, we can handle a theory and we can handle the destruction of our own theories.

Wait, didn't you just agree to give me some time because it was so large? I think it's obvious who's trolling who here. Think about it: what incentive do I have for posting if all I'll get is insults? Do you realize how long it took me to make this theory? Well, I guess you don't really care. Too bad.

[Renall]

That's what spoiler tags are for. And this is a Spoilers and speculations thread. If I want to go off and think on my own, I can close this thread and not look at it. This is not the appropriate forum to be cagey. There's nothing to gain from it. People are here because they want to know things and figure things out. If somebody came in and dumped the full solution tomorrow and was 100% right a year down the line when everything finishes up, hey, that's what I get for being in the Spoilers thread.

[Arachanox]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Spoiler for chrono:

Wait, didn't you just agree to give me some time? I think it's obvious who's trolling who here. Think about it: what incentive do I have for posting if all I'll get is insults? Do you realize how long it took me to make this theory? Well, I guess you don't really care. Too bad.

Some people do care for your theory, although in my opinion I wouldn't want the whole thing laid out in front of me since that leaves no more mystery to be solved

So if you are willing to present any new theories or ideas, simply ask for time and we'll wait. If you want to hold on to it and wait for a (possible) self-satisfied victory upon the release of EP8, you can do that too. If you want to give us a few more subtle clues, hints, or ways at thinking of things that's fine too.

I'm just against circular arguing about people's true 'elitist insulting' motives that isn't actually arguing about the material.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Arachanox

I see, thanks.

Also, towards any/all chronotrig bashing:

IF chrono DOES know the truth of Umineko, or an approximate truth of it, then his actions are helping us along the way even if he gives no direct hints, since we still are pressured to think in new and divergent ways. Furthermore, his 'elitist attitude' is in defense of not wanting to spoil the truth to us, so we can think and argue and fight our way to it ourselves.

IF chrono DOES NOT know the truth of Umineko, or any approximate truth of it, then his 'subtle hints' which no one is catching will not damage what we are doing, and he is still forcing us to think in new and divergent ways which may lead to the truth. Furthermore, his 'elitist attitude' will not damage us much since he isn't divulging my information which might potentially lead us down the wrong path.

Win-win situation. Let him continue poking at us in his own fashion.

Thank you, I couldn't say it better myself.

Originally Posted by Renall

He is intentionally aggravating people by treating them with disrespect, then acting like they are overreacting to his childish behavior. As I said, I've reported it and the moderator will do whatever it is the moderator does.

...
What forum rule has been violated? He's said over and over again that it would be best for us to figure this out on our own.

Look, he's basically posted the equivilent of 'look here for the answer' instead of 'here is the answer'. After rereading the begining of episode 2 and reading his theory I'm seriously considering supporting this version of Shkanon.

I think you are the one who needs to take a break and think about what Chronotrig has posted so far.

[chronotrig]

Well, I think I've laid out enough that other people can figure out the rest, if they really think deeply about it and at least try to keep an open mind. The rule about Shkanontrice has already been posted more or less, and you'll find it makes even more sense when put together with the rule about the gold text and Beatrice's truth.

The reason I'm confident is because this line of reasoning comes full circle. When you get to the end, you'll find plenty of evidence supporting that final result. And you'll be able to explain what happened in each game, more or less.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Well, I think I've laid out enough that other people can figure out the rest, if they really think deeply about it and at least try to keep an open mind. The rule about Shkanontrice has already been posted more or less, and you'll find it makes even more sense when put together with the rule about the gold text and Beatrice's truth.

I've not yet seen anything that hasn't been posted before, and my objection remains as before: What does Shkanon answer, other than Kanon's missing corpse and possibly part of ep6? The snippets of theories advanced do not shed any further light on the reason why Shkanon is necessary, nor on what it accomplishes, only on ways in which it is possible/. I know the evidence for why it is possible. I have seen it many times in the ep4/5/6/Spoilers threads. Now I would like the next step: Accepting it as true whether or not I believe it to be so, what answers does it provide me?

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Renall

I've not yet seen anything that hasn't been posted before, and my objection remains as before: What does Shkanon answer, other than Kanon's missing corpse and possibly part of ep6? The snippets of theories advanced do not shed any further light on the reason why Shkanon is necessary, nor on what it accomplishes, only on ways in which it is possible/. I know the evidence for why it is possible. I have seen it many times in the ep4/5/6/Spoilers threads. Now I would like the next step: Accepting it as true whether or not I believe it to be so, what answers does it provide me?

And that is why I hesitated to lay out my theory. I have already laid out more than a dozen things that Shkanon answers, but you seem to have ignored them. Sure, it's good and fair if you don't agree with Shkanon, but to say it answers nothing is simply inaccurate. It's impossible to argue a large theory when people don't listen to what you say.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

And that is why I hesitated to lay out my theory. I have already laid out more than a dozen things that Shkanon answers, but you seem to have ignored them. Sure, it's good and fair if you don't agree with Shkanon, but to say it answers nothing is simply inaccurate.

I must have missed them. Would you be so kind as to list them again in a spoiler box? A bulleted list would be great, but if you just want to cut and paste what you've already written that is also fine.