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[Kamui4356]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

read MY post to explain what he means.

Sarcasm. I'm sure you've heard of it.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Kamui4356

Sarcasm. I'm sure you've heard of it.

my point is that 100% of all their demands (territorial and otherwise) litteraly DOES mean Israel committing suicide.

[Kamui4356]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

my point is that 100% of all their demands (not simple territorial ones) litteraly DOES mean Israel committing suicide.

My point is no it doesn't, and you are well aware of it. You're taking the views of radicals and attributing it to all Palestinians. The percent under dispute is Israel settlements in the West Bank and portions of Jerusalem. If Israel can't survive giving up territory that the only reason they have in the first place is because Jordan conquered it, then they took it from Jordan, it can't be a very stable nation.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Kamui4356

My point is no it doesn't, and you are well aware of it. You're taking the views of radicals and attributing it to all Palestinians. The percent under dispute is Israel settlements in the West Band and portions of Jerusalem. If Israel can't survive giving up territory that the only reason they have in the first place is because Jordan conquered it, then they took it from Jordan, it can't be a very stable nation.

you are ignoring the REAL deal breaker
the REAL reason why arafat rejected the 2000 peace proposal.
the refugees.
the palestinians still demand that Israel take in millions of Palestinian refugees into itself thus demographically destroying the world only Jewish state and turning it into just another arab one.

so long as the palestinians don't abandon that demand, there is no possible deal to be made.

as for the bold part, the UN resolution 242 (the land for peace formula) makes it perfectly clear that Israel has the right to exist within defensible boarders.
which the complete 1967 boarders are not (those boarders were drawn by troop locations at the time)
which means territorial exchanges would HAVE to take place.

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

why should Israel be the one to give in to demands 100%? why shouldn't the other party do at least the other 10%?

Because Israel's existence in the first place is debatable, and new. I don't see how giving the Palestinians a country is that big a deal. And to clarify, I'm speaking for moderates... Ignore Hamas's demands, and their influence will drop.

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

the palestinians still demand that Israel take in millions of Palestinian refugees into itself thus demographically destroying the world only Jewish state and turning it into just another arab one.

Why does this matter? Demographics? That should be the least of anyone's concern.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

Because Israel's existence in the first place is debatable, and new. I don't see how giving the Palestinians a country is that big a deal. And to clarify, I'm speaking for moderates... Ignore Hamas's demands, and their influence will drop.

nope
it exists
i checked it myself just now, and i can say with absolute certainty that it exists
it has existed since 1948, and will continue to exists long past 2948 as far as we're concerned

as for talking to the moderates, when you talk to them, Hamas spikes up their attacks by about 400% just to make it clear that they refuse to be ignored.
so no go.

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

Why does this matter? Demographics? That should be the least of anyone's concern.

its the ONLY real thing that matters.
the entire REASON why there has been a conflict for the past 62 years, is a rejection of a Jewish state by the arab world (the occupation only happened after 1967)
Demographics are the most important issue in this conflict.
simply put, any agreement that cancels out Israel's being the worlds only Jewish state won't even be discussed.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

nope
it exists
i checked it myself just now, and i can say with absolute certainty that it exists
it has existed since 1948, and will continue to exists long past 2948 as far as we're concerned

The Arab / Muslim world doesn't. One thing I know for sure - Malaysia doesn't recognise an Israeli visa or passport stamp.

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

nope
it exists
i checked it myself just now, and i can say with absolute certainty
it exists

as for talking to the moderates, when you talk to them, Hamas spikes up their attacks by about 400% just to make it clear that they refuse to be ignored.
so no go.

Don't be snarky. A country that was 'created' by Western nations less than 100 years ago is pretty debatable whether it should exist, in my eyes.

That's not a no-go... That's all the more reason to give the moderates what they want, and see what happens from there.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

Don't be snarky. A country that was 'created' by Western nations less than 100 years ago is pretty debatable whether it should exist, in my eyes.

look around the middle east
Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi arabia, Qatar, Kuwait
all these countries didn't exists before WWI
all of them were created by the Western nations (the UK and France) with absolutely no consideration given to the tribes, religious and ethnic groups being in them (they litterally just drew lines on a map)

That's not a no-go... That's all the more reason to give the moderates what they want, and see what happens from there

so your plan is basically "give the moderates what they want, while letting the extremists attack you freely ?"

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

The Arab / Muslim world doesn't. One thing I know for sure - Malaysia doesn't recognise an Israeli visa or passport stamp.

they will in time (most of them have dealings with Israel under the table all the time)

[Anh_Minh]

bladeofdarkness, I've kept silent on the issue till now, but you're starting to really piss me off.

...

It's "borders", not "boarders", which means something else entirely.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

bladeofdarkness, I've kept silent on the issue till now, but you're starting to really piss me off.

...

It's "borders", not "boarders", which means something else entirely.

i most humbly apologizes

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

Don't be snarky. A country that was 'created' by Western nations less than 100 years ago is pretty debatable whether it should exist, in my eyes.

That's not a no-go... That's all the more reason to give the moderates what they want, and see what happens from there.

actually that is not debatable. Israel as a country already had it baptism by fire by defeating the combine army of the Arab world.

the question regarding Israel right to exist is something the arab countries are going to have to drop if they really want peace in the middle east. Whether Israel should have been created in the first doesn't matter at this point, it is here and they are powerful enough to defend themselves. The Arab world is just going to have to live with it.

[Kamui4356]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

you are ignoring the REAL deal breaker
the REAL reason why arafat rejected the 2000 peace proposal.
the refugees.
the palestinians still demand that Israel take in millions of Palestinian refugees into itself thus demographically destroying the world only Jewish state and turning it into just another arab one.

That's going to happen anyway. Unless Israel makes peace and forges a completely secular identity for its people, it's just a matter of time before it goes the way of the Crusader states. The only other option is ethnic cleansing. Surely that's unacceptable to all parties.

so long as the palestinians don't abandon that demand, there is no possible deal to be made.

That demand is not the issue currently. It's Israel settlements and East Jerusalem.

as for the bold part, the UN resolution 242 (the land for peace formula) makes it perfectly clear that Israel has the right to exist within defensible boarders.
which the complete 1967 boarders are not (those boarders were drawn by troop locations at the time)
which means territorial exchanges would HAVE to take place.

Which the Palestinians agreed to, provided it's mostly sticking with the 1967 borders, and an equal exchange.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Kamui4356

That's going to happen anyway. Unless Israel makes peace and forges a completely secular identity for its people, it's just a matter of time before it goes the way of the Crusader states. The only other option is ethnic cleansing. Surely that's unacceptable to all parties.

thats a common mistake.
Israel's ethnic make up is 75% Jews with 20% arabs and 5% other
in 2000 the birth rate was
Jews 17 births per 1000 people.
arabs 37 births per 1000 people.
since 2000, there has been a VERY stady change (its consistently followed every year)
in 2010 the birth rate difference is
Jewish birth rate is 24 per 1000
arab is 28 per 1000
and its still dropping
this means that not only are arabs only 1/5 of the population, but in 2 years their birth rates would also drop below that of Jews
and thats simply birth rates
thats not even factoring in that every single year tens of thousends of Jews move to Israel.
and, the 20% arab population includes 300,000 Arabs who live in East Jerusalem (which would probably end up being turned over to the PNA)

the illusion of an Israeli Demographic bomb is simply that
an illusion.

That demand is not the issue currently. It's Israel settlements and East Jerusalem.

that demand is the issue that dropped the 2000 negotiations

Which the Palestinians agreed to, provided it's mostly sticking with the 1967 borders, and an equal exchange.

we don't have that much of a problem with that either.
Jerusalem is the main sticking point as far as territory goes, but other then that, a solution could be reached.

[Kamui4356]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

thats a common mistake.
Israel's ethnic make up is 75% Jews with 20% arabs and 5% other
in 2000 the birth rate was
Jews 19 births per 1000 people.
arabs 37 births per 1000 people.
since 2000, there has been a VERY stady change (its consistently followed every year)
in 2010 the birth rate difference is
Jewish birth rate is 24 per 1000
arab is 28 per 1000
and its still dropping
this means that not only are arabs only 1/5 of the population, but in 2 years their birth rates would also drop below that of Jews
and thats simply birth rates
thats not even factoring in that every single year tens of thousends of Jews move to Israel.

the illusion of a Demographic bomb is simply that
an illusion.

Problem there is they're both dropping, and after peaking in 2008, the Israeli birth rate is dropping faster these past 2 years. Are you confident the demographics aren't going to shift in the next 200 years?

that demand is the issue that dropped the 2000 negotiations

This is not 2000.

we don't have that much of a problem with that either.
Jerusalem is the main sticking point as far as territory goes, but other then that, a solution could be reached.

But other than that? You're hand waving away the main issue. Personally I like the independent City state approach to resolving that. Neither side will go for it though.

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

actually that is not debatable. Israel as a country already had it baptism by fire by defeating the combine army of the Arab world.

the question regarding Israel right to exist is something the arab countries are going to have to drop if they really want peace in the middle east. Whether Israel should have been created in the first doesn't matter at this point, it is here and they are powerful enough to defend themselves. The Arab world is just going to have to live with it.

First of all defeating armies is not a reason a country should exist, but okay. I don't debate it exists NOW. You're completely missing my point. I'm saying that Israel is still fighting the remnants of the people who lived there before that country existed. To those people, the issue is obviously debatable. But instead of being given their land, an entire ethnic group is being reduced to a rogue terrorist organization.

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

look around the middle east
Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi arabia, Qatar, Kuwait
all these countries didn't exists before WWI
all of them were created by the Western nations (the UK and France) with absolutely no consideration given to the tribes, religious and ethnic groups being in them (they litterally just drew lines on a map)

I don't deny this fact. It applies to Africa too, where the results are even worse in many ways. Israel is a special case though, since it has a large immigrant population. But anyways I'm not trying to say Israel shouldn't exist. I'm just pointing out how the issue is very debatable, and Palestinians aren't that bonkers to be adopting the position they do.

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

so your plan is basically "give the moderates what they want, while letting the extremists attack you freely ?"

No, it isn't. Don't you see how giving them the land would sap a lot of power from Hamas? How it would hurt their 'cause,' and how less people would become radicalized in the first place?

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Kamui4356

Problem there is they're both dropping, and after peaking in 2008, the Israeli birth rate is dropping faster these past 2 years. Are you confident the demographics aren't going to shift in the next 200 years?

as i said, the birth rates are one of 3 factors.
1)birth rate shift (and yes i'm fairly certain it would stay that way)
2)immigration (this year alone you had 40,000 immigrants)
3)the returning of around 300,000 Palestinians living in East Jerusalem to the new Palestinian state (after which, the arab % of the population drops from 20 to 15).
so yes, i'm pretty confident.

This is not 2000.

and yet, 2000's problems are still around today.

But other than that? You're hand waving away the main issue. Personally I like the independent City state approach to resolving that. Neither side will go for it though.

if you mean Jerusalem, i could care less what they do with it.
my only consideration about it is its Symbolic status, but it has no personal religious importance to me (i'm an Atheist).
it would probably get divided something along the lines of Israel gets West Jerusalem + the area of the Western wall and the Jewish neighborhoods and the Palestinians get the rest of East Jerusalem with official control over their own holy sites.

the main thing to remember about Jerusalem, is that before 1948, it wasn't really divided into East and West
its only a result of that war that it BECAME divided, and it was only divided for 19 years.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

First of all defeating armies is not a reason a country should exist, but okay. I don't debate it exists NOW. You're completely missing my point. I'm saying that Israel is still fighting the remnants of the people who lived there before that country existed. To those people, the issue is obviously debatable. But instead of being given their land, an entire ethnic group is being reduced to a rogue terrorist organization.

off topic but every country in the world today exist because sometime in the past it was strong enough to stop a invading army. otherwise they would gone to dust like Phoenicians, Magyar and Babylonians.

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

off topic but every country in the world today exist because sometime in the past it was strong enough to stop a invading army.

Everyone knows that. I don't see it as justification for anything, though. For instance, I live in the United States, and I love some of the ideas of the founders of this nation, but I don't think it was right to take it from the Amerindians.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

Everyone knows that. I don't see it as justification for anything, though. For instance, I live in the United States, and I love some of the ideas of the founders of this nation, but I don't think it was right to take it from the Amerindians.

Might makes Right