2010-05-28, 20:03 | Link #21 | |||||
Loving Romeo X Juliet
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: City of Angels
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That thought in itself implies that someone without arms and legs should be unable to even feed himself with a straw and yet you make a mockery of that by calling the act of being able to feed using a straw "a success" - Let me remind you once again what the definitions of success are: Princeton: an event that accomplishes its intended purpose The video in question: Success is the Progressive realization of a worthy ideal So if a person who doesn't have arms/legs sets himself "A GOAL" of being able to feed himself with a straw and after all the effort that it takes, he accomplishes that task then YES, that is a success regardless of how minimalistic you think that success might be from the point of view of someone Completely Healthy. Furthermore, consider the FACT that there are many people who ARE physically capable of doing what he has done without arms and legs and yet they fail to accomplish half of what he is doing. Lets put it in simple terms, how many perfectly healthy people fail to complete college just because they don't have the will power to keep at it? Now don't go twisting my words about it, I was clearly referring to "perfectly healthy individuals" and "will power" as there are many who drop out for different reasons. Quote:
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If that person's goal was to become an artist, attract people, etc - IF he actually accomplishes that goal then yes, he is successful. Those who claim he is delusional don't know the definition of delusion because it clearly doesn't apply to this example. Let me refresh your mind: Definition of delusion: a persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that is maintained despite indisputable evidence to the contrary. Back to that "artist" .. the only way the concept of delusion can be applied to this artist is if the believes he is successful despite of the fact that his goal was never to become and artist (or if he failed at that) and regardless of the indisputable failure, he keeps thinking he is happy and successful while he is failing to himself. THAT MY FRIEND is the only way the word "delusion" can be rightfully applied to this example. So as you see our point of views differ only because one of us is actually keeping in mind the definition of the words according to the context in which they are used and the other one is clearly disregarding the meaning of key-words throughout this discussion and using them anyways. Quote:
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2010-05-28, 21:51 | Link #22 | |
Deadpan Snarker
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: The Neverlands
Age: 46
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and the bold part is where it all falls down Those "5 out of 100", you really think they only have themselves to thank for their "success"? Those "95 out of 100", you think they are all ambitionless lazy assed bums? There are no guarantees in life and no "feel good" dialog will ever change that want "indisputable evidence' for that statement? or will you take it as fact? Success isn't the progressive realization of an ideal, only the realisation of an ideal succes is an endresult, not a means If one would try untill the end of his life but not achieve his goal, he can only be content with the knowledge of giving his best Ironicly, such a person would with his contentment only yield to conformity
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2010-05-29, 01:20 | Link #23 | |||||
Loving Romeo X Juliet
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: City of Angels
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There is an infinite number of negative thoughts with which you can hijack yourself out of success or from the thought of ever doing something for that matter. By thinking positively, setting goals and taking action you improve your chances of success a lot more than someone who is horribly-negative has no goals, ambitions or never takes action towards anything. Is that wishful thinking? Perhaps the many people who start and run a successful business throughout the world (because thats what they set their minds to) are as diluted as I am right? #1 No one is an island unto himself. Can you succeed all by yourself? If your goal is something you can reach on your own sure! however most people need a collaborative effort or need to get other people involved to realize their goals. Want a concrete example? Lets think how Henry Ford grew his company and created the concept of the production line, sure Ford as a company has seen better days however the production line concept is what has made manufacturing companies strong, they "outsource" the work to other people. Could Henry Ford have taken his operation from a concept to a huge operation all by himself considering all the manufacturing effort required? Was other people involved in his success? I rest my case #2 The people who didn't achive this "financial goal" simply failed at achieving that particular goal, that doesn't mean that their entire life was an utter failure and that they are "lazy assed bums" because after reaching retirement many are still working, we can not refer to those people are lazy in any way. Financial examples are often cited when people talk about success simply because money affects more areas of our lives than we dare to admit. As I have stated like 3+ times before, you don't only measure success in financial terms. If you heard the entire audio file or read the actual content I pasted in the OP thread, you will see that the speaker moves on to say that you can be successful by achieving your goals in other areas of your life, like parenthood, etc. Quote:
To simplify things a lot. Quote me on ONE PERSON who has reached success by thinking as negatively as you are right now. Don't go quoting me on people who win the lottery because as we all know that is pure luck! Neither people who have inherited things because they didn't put any effort towards achieving what they now have. Quote:
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Simply put, in order to reach a goal you need to start at step 1, then follow step 2, 3, 4 .. until you reach the step in which you have finally realized your goal. The fact that you are progressively doing something doesn't mean you are a success, it only means that you are following a series of steps in order to reach a goal, that is what the word "progressive" means within that context. Quote:
A couple who set their minds towards saving money to ultimately put their children through college achieve success once their children graduate (can we link happiness to this achievement? sure! I can't imagine a couple that wouldn't feel happy seeing this dream realized), is that an impossible goal? No! Is it hard to achieve? You bet it is! Those who see themselves unable to save money because "there is nothing guaranteed in life" can still reach their ultimate goal of putting their children through college by sending them to a community college. Is that less of an accomplishment? If you see it with negative eyes you can call this second example an utter failure regardless of the fact that they achieved their ultimate goal despite all the hoops and bounds that life put them through. If someone fails at something, the easiest way to avoid delusional happiness is to be realist and acknowledge that something went wrong, grab pen and paper and reformulate their goals based on a more realistic scenario I understand your POV that sometimes life can be cruel and in very few cases some people may fail at everything they do (those are extremely rare cases) but even if that is their situation by thinking negatively they are just that much closer to hijacking themselves out of existence. What do you think goes through the mind of someone who is considering suicide? Positive thoughts? ^ The suicide example is rather harsh but I put it there to prove a point, you go nowhere by reinforcing negative thoughts. Most women out there (or at least all of the ones that I have met) would leave me without a second thought if I was a bundle of negativity, if I thought nothing was guaranteed in life and therefore setting myself goals and reaching those goals step by step (aka progressively) is an utter delusion. That would only be the fruit I would reap based on my negative thinking, this not only applies to relationships but to pretty much everything else you do. All in all, I wish you good luck reaching your goals or becoming happy with that cloud of negativity over your head. Personally I think all the fuzz was just a way to win an discussion based on a certain level of pride without much of an argument to back things up...which is why you debunked yourself from the start. Hopefully that is the case and NOT that you are an utterly negative person because I really don't see how things can be explained any better.
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Last edited by CuXe; 2010-05-29 at 08:13. |
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2010-05-29, 11:03 | Link #24 | |
Senior Guest
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Athens (GMT+2)
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I read the text, it certainly holds some truth and can be a helpful tool to people with low self-esteem or no confidence. On the other hand, everyone who doesn't follow this, is treated as a failure, which can be offensive towards others as well as false. I'll say, it is a matter of opinion; if I decide to roam the land, alone poor and with no particular place to go, I will be deemed a failure, but in fact what if that was what I always wanted to do? What if I wanted to escape the pressure of having goals and just live my life wandering the world? It would be a success in my eyes. Another thing to note is that the Strangest Secret can be potentially dangerous: many people dream of a better job, a better house, a better physical appearance, a better partner, etc. You can't have it all just by thinking you can do it...and when things don't go the way people want them to, their negativity will definitely increase many times, at which point the opposite happens, they lose their patience and enter a state of self-loathing, at which point they have no will to succeed anymore. All because they focused too hard on a single goal and put their hopes up, treat it as something that is bound to happen (by throwing off their fear and negative emotions), and yet if they had considered the possibility of failure, they wouldn't have taken its loss so hard. Tl;dr : It's great but should only be used by people of considerable patience and willpower...although they wouldn't need it as much. |
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2010-05-29, 16:18 | Link #25 | ||||||||
Loving Romeo X Juliet
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: City of Angels
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INDEED, you see a goal doesn't have to be something overly complex, anyone can turn a simple unspoken decision into a goal, was there any pressure behind changing those priorities? Nope. If someone chooses (unspoken goal there), follows and achieves the path towards living a nomadic life in order to escape the pressures of complex goals, which are often associated with complex societies, then that in itself is a success. Just like it was a success for the cave man to go out every day, hunt and come back alive, that was his unspoken goal everyday, so you see a goal doesn't have to be something overly complex (again no pun or sarcasm intended here) Quote:
1. Greed from Full metal alchemist (I've watched that series so long I think I know him lol) 2. MYSELF (when I was a child, seriously I thought I could have it all) But here is the thing, when people reach a certain level of maturity we all realize that it is a child's dream to think that we can have it all. I have to agree that using this video following that frame of mind would indeed lead to undesirable results. So it is imperative to have a certain level of maturity and realism towards how things work because as you correctly stated no one can "have it all" just by thinking "he could have it all" - Again, as a child I did think that way... I also thought I could fly and visit Jupiter if I set my mind to it but that was a highly improbable goal which was formulated because of my level of immaturity at the time, can't blame me tho... I was just a kid I know a certain person will take this last line and turn it into a "and here is where the argument falls" kind of thing so I have to point out... as a Kid I set my mind to "impossible things" and I thought I could achieve them if I only set my mind to it regardless of how impossible things might have been... I have to stress the use of the words "impossible and child/kid" we can't apply the same circumstance to a instance where a mature person would be involved in the goal setting part because it is assumed that by reaching a certain level of maturity someone would know that flying and visiting Jupiter is highly improbable. - This paragraph wasn't meant for you Kaf. although if you want to comment on it you are free to do so. Quote:
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How someone takes and accepts defeat is something learned as a child, you just have to hope that by the time someone reaches maturity they would know how to handle failure and defeat by moving on and setting more attainable goals to themselves. That just brings me back to the impossible goal setting part. Someone can set his mind to become an astronaut but if that person doesn't like physics, math, etc the hard reality is that this person is going to fail at that goal. Why? Lack of planning and consideration about the fact that he/she needed to understand all the factors that reaching that goal entailed. Should he/she take it very hard on himself that he didn't think that being an astronaut would require such high level of knowledge about science? That same person would have succeeded in something like being a social worker or being a school teacher which would have been a far more attainable goal based on his/her skills. That is just to say that some people have an inclination for science while others might be more social, everyone has a forte, we just have to find what that forte is and aim those skills towards an achievable goal. But just like the example you gave above, a goal doesn't even have to be something as complex as being an astronaut, it could be something as simple as choosing to live a nomadic life, roaming the land because thats what you set your mind to. That is a good example of a very attainable goal. Quote:
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2010-05-30, 01:14 | Link #26 | |||||
Senior Guest
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2010-05-30, 02:09 | Link #27 |
Loving Romeo X Juliet
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: City of Angels
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^ Thanks for clarifying that first statement, I thought you had achieved success based on pure negative thinking however as you said you "incentivized" yourself by thinking of the "consequences" failing at something would bring about which is something most of us experience earlier in our lives when we have to pass a test and don't want to get scolded by our parents because of failure.
I wouldn't call that negative thinking but rather a consequentialist mindset towards the effects of an action which in itself is a very positive thing because it shows that you considered the effects of your actions (or the effects inaction would bring about) At any rate, I see the logic behind each and every one of your statements and I believe it would be safe to say we have reached several points of congruence about this topic from a composed and mature POV
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2010-05-30, 07:49 | Link #28 | ||
Deadpan Snarker
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: The Neverlands
Age: 46
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there are only so many factors you can control, too many outside variables in life you can try and win [insert swimsuit model's name here] heart, but chances are bigger you'll get a restrainingorder on your ass Quote:
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2010-05-30, 08:41 | Link #29 | ||
Loving Romeo X Juliet
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: City of Angels
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The "Astronaut paragraph" you quoted and "pointed out" illustrates a very, VERY difficult goal to achieve for most people. Does this goal have several variables which you cannot control? YES! ... Would a mature person set himself a goal like that knowing that his skill level, knowledge and "connections" within the social circles required to achieve this goal are less than optimal? I doubt it! I know I wouldn't run for senator if I was very shy and had no connections boot! Mature individuals know how to set achievable goals for themselves within the realm of reality, considering their skills and resources. Once I grew up I knew that setting myself a goal such as visiting Jupiter was extremely far fetched and when I think about it, I recall that former self with a certain level of amusement, knowing how immature and far fetched the goals I had as a child were. But you are not interested in this story, lets get back to "conquering the heart of a celebrity" You can argue that wining the heart of a celebrity is a lot easier than reaching a star (celestial object) however let me tell you why that goal is also extremely hard to achieve.... and I know what I am talking about because after all, I live in Hollywood (not bragging... << and I am dead serious about this statement) Following your example.... winning [insert swimsuit model's name here] heart is a rather far-fetched goal to set for yourself if you (or the hypothetical person in this case) have stalking tendencies and don't have the least bit of understanding about how to approach a celebrity, so you are correct when you say (and I quote) you would get a restraining order on your ass. But here is a rather condensed and quick series of steps a person would have to follow should he set himself a goal of winning the heart of someone famous: Quote:
I am going to confess something right here and now, I have a thing for Claire Danes. But I would be too much of a child to think that I could overthrow her fiancé by completely blowing his personality out of the water, winning her heart, reaching the same financial and social standing he currently enjoys and living happily ever after. Do you see how highly improbable that is? Do you think a mature person would set himself a goal like that if he didn't already have the resources to achieve it? As I recall there was a movie which illustrated this immature (to avoid saying ignorant) point of view, It was called BORAT. This movie was amusing in several levels because the actor portrayed a person who was rather ignorant of the modus vivendi of the people who lived in a different country.To reinforce my point Nightbat, as an adult you need to set yourself realistic and achievable goals, goals that are within your grasp considering your skills and resources because otherwise you could live an unhappy life due to the fact that you didn't accomplish those unreachable goals you set for yourself. When the person in the video says that you can achieve most goals if you only set your mind to it, it is assumed that people listening to this motivational piece are composed and mature individuals who won't misinterpret the material by thinking that the core message also entails that "if you set your mind" to find a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow you most certainly will.Is it impossible to win the heart of that celebrity you are so fond of? Nope it is most certainly NOT impossible! but you better believe it will not be a stroll in the park either given the level of competition and the number of variables this goal entails. And after all, why would you go for a celebrity when there are so many beautiful and available women out there? (lol I know, I know .. that was just your way to provide an example) More examples of highly improbable, childish (but very amusing) goals are: - Becoming a Real Estate magnate if you are extremely shy. - Finding a pink Ponny (without using photoshop LOL) - Making out with Sarah Palin in live TV (lol) - Winning an Olympic gold medal regardless of whether or not I had any talent. - Becoming irresistible to every single woman in the world without exception. - Becoming a hell of a hacker even if I you are not interested in computers at all. - Finding a message in a bottle by waiting countless days at the beach. - Beating John Stewart or Stephen Colbert at their own game. - Having a child with Kallen (hot chick from Code Geass) - ETC, Etc, etc.... In all seriousness tho, I hope you get the message because with 32 years of age one would hope that by now...you know better than to set childish/unattainable goals for yourself.
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2010-05-30, 11:54 | Link #30 | |
Deadpan Snarker
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: The Neverlands
Age: 46
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The "Model" was an extreme example, now turn that into "just landing a job to bring food on the table" Yup I'm 32, and for 32 years, Ive seen your Motivational speech at work: Clear goals, positive attitudes, hard work and commitment I've seen it to succeed, and also blow up in people's faces It's as valuable as the weatherman saying "It's gonna rain,... or not" (in which case smart people grab an umbrella 'just in case' instead of putting on a bikini) Just because I have no scientific approach doesn't mean I think about these things as if I am child I'm certainly not as naive as one
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2010-05-30, 13:06 | Link #31 | ||
Senior Guest
Join Date: Jan 2009
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2010-05-30, 13:34 | Link #32 |
Deadpan Snarker
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: The Neverlands
Age: 46
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Hypothetical:
and on monday, you suffer a burnout,... what then? -You fail to meet the deadline -You get fired because of that What happened to you hard work and positive attitude then? acccording to the PoV you ambitiously and in good spirit contributed to your effort so you ARE succesful,... right? - I'm not here saying everyone should sit on their ass because hard work never pays off I'm not saying you should never try to achieve a goal But that speech in the opening post is just too shallow, life isn't that bloody easy that you can just try and succeed Most people live in conformity because they have tried but didn't succeed They live in conformity because they have to, they have families to feed, bills to pay, they can't go on ambitious adventures anymore succeeding has as much to do with ambition and effort as it has to do with luck
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2010-05-30, 18:57 | Link #33 | ||||||||||
Loving Romeo X Juliet
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: City of Angels
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THIS statment I have to highlight and put in a virtual frame!
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Yet you continue to point out why is it that you fail to grasp the message of the video because landing a job or bringing food to the table is something most mature individuals would do, those are realistic goals because they follow the meaning of the word realism; conquering the heart of a celebrity, finding pink ponys and such are most definitively not! So in other words in your mind: Quote:
If at this point you deny this statement applies to your mindset then please refer to the words that came out of your own mind/keyboard which I put in a virtual frame at the top.Come one man, the video was intended for every day people with realistic goals, you make it sound like "extreme examples" are in some way shape or form realistic, common and achievable for most people. Quote:
Is that a goal a realistic and mature adult would set for himself? Is that goal extremely likely to blow up in his face should this person pursue this ideal? You bet it is! Quote:
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Does that break down make it scientific, I doubt it. To rest my point: One is a realistic goal lots of people achieve daily, the other one is very unlikely to happen. Quoting KAF and responding to NB POV Quote:
Would taking on this task be something I would fail at considering my skill level and resources? YES! Is this something Kaf would fail at considering he knows how to use AutoCAD and has the resources to accomplish this goal? NOPE! It might be very difficult considering the time tables and the level of complexity but if anyone can do it he can... could you do this task? could I do this task? I believe you took his witty comment literally. Is this goal impossible for him? NOPE!...maybe very difficult to accomplish but not impossible otherwise why would he even bother trying if it was impossible right?..... is it impossible for most people who don't have his knowledge about the topic to achieve this goal and meet his deadline? YES! I don't see why anyone would set himself such a highly technical taks if the didn't already have the skills and resources to do it or if he didn't wan't to go through college once again, this is not something a realistic individual would do. Quote:
Now realistically tho, how many people who are assigned academic tasks like this suffer these hypothetical burnouts? If this was a regular occurrence your example would hold more substance but you are just describing accidents or unlikely situations... how often do accidents/unlikely situations happen to most people? I certainly do hope is not an everyday thing for most cause I tell you if these improbable things would have happened to me all the time I couldn't have possibly graduated from college. BUT.... SAY that he actually fails this assignment, following your argument he should fall in a million pieces and live in conformity because all his effort, positive attitude and hard work went to waste. Considering this hypothetical scenario is not an everyday occurrence, most college students would pick themselves up and keep at it wouldn't they? Or would you rather call it quits and say "the hell with it all" based on an unlikely and unfortunate circumstance? You could try to equate unlikely things to things that happen everyday but that procedure will fail each and every time because they these two things are simply not equal just like the number 2 is not the equivalent of the number 4. Quote:
Is bringing home to the table any less of a goal that going on an ambitions/highly improbably adventure? NO! They are both goals, the difference tho is that one is realistic and achievable to most people and the other is simply wishful thinking. Are ambition and luck involved in success? Yes, I never said they weren't but the luck factor only becomes relevant if your goals are highly ambitious! ... How much luck do you think the average person needs to have in order to accomplish a goal such as bringing food to the table? Not much! they just need to be alive and willing to work so as you see luck is always a positive factor but it becomes highly important when you set highly ambitious goals for yourself, otherwise you don't need much of it. The goal of the video tho is to encourage people not to live in conformity and aspire to better themselves, does it necessarily have to be anything related to their finances? NO! I think the video made that plenty clear... a mother can aspire to become the best mother she can possibly be! Is she falling in conformity just because her finances are less than perfect? If we think like that way, wouldn't we be disregarding the fact (yes, this is an assertion of fact) that a person's life encompasses a lot more than just financial situations?
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2010-05-30, 19:20 | Link #34 |
Kurumada's lost child
Join Date: Nov 2003
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Awesome! I never expected the subject of spirituality to be discussed in this forums. I feel compelled to contribute to it so here is nice gift from me to all of you who are reading this thread. If you follow it, it will change your life for the better.
Just watch the short clips, you can also download the audio book for free. It is truly life changing. In my opinion everyone should hear this in school. Here is a sample: http://awareness.tk/ |
2010-05-30, 19:37 | Link #35 |
Loving Romeo X Juliet
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: City of Angels
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^ Thank you for your contribution Sugetsu, that is material that can be very valuable and useful for people with a spiritual frame of mind indeed.
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Last edited by CuXe; 2010-05-30 at 19:52. |
2010-05-31, 00:51 | Link #36 | ||
Senior Guest
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Athens (GMT+2)
Age: 35
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Assuming this was a project for a customer at work, we work in teams and can't be fired, since only we know the wiring of the house, so if they hire someone else they'd have to start all over from scratch. Assuming there is room for sacking in another profession I could have followed, things could be very bad indeed, to the point of scarring my rep bad enough that nobody else would ever hire me again in the continent. In that case, I'd change profession. It's amazing how many things one man can do...farming, selling, advertising, bodyguarding/security, working at a communications center, etc. Quote:
To close my post, I also want to say this: you're never too old to try again. I see people older than my professors (who are in their mid-sixties), with a three-digit pass (mine's at 5 digits, i.e.~35000 people have enrolled since then) taking courses and jotting down notes, because they need a certificate to expand their business. |
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2010-05-31, 01:55 | Link #38 |
Senior Guest
Join Date: Jan 2009
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Electrical engineering, since there's always a place to work at, and I get to define the amount of money I get. My personal view of success involves being my own boss, or at least have enough independence so that it doesn't go wrong...unless I do something really stupid
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2010-05-31, 12:11 | Link #39 |
Deadpan Snarker
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: The Neverlands
Age: 46
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Cuxe, you're the one that has no idea of reality whatsoever
Why? Because some people set impossible goals and succeed, some set simple goals and fail, sometimes by own merit, sometimes not Sometime people do a job they hate, half hearted and end up on the top, others do it with pasion, are commited and positive and end in the gutter Sometimes you start what seems a simple task to find out later it has become impossible, or you start something impossible that turns out to be easy as pie You know what happens to men between 25 and 65? LIFE! and even you agreed life has no guarantees, yet your "amazing secret" NEVER takes that into account It never takes in account '(bad) luck' because it would undermine the entire message it tries to feed you, so it simply ignores it
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2010-05-31, 12:33 | Link #40 | |
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