Military, Authority & Decisions In MSLN series

[itanshi1]

wasn't it stated el hazard and ancient belkan got done in by mass based weapons hence the ban?

also the 'one person' who can do that, is the villain to be stopped

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Sheba

True or False: has the series shown that magic is as destructive as mass-based weaponry? Certainly, they do not have nuclear devices (that we know of), but what we have seen is certainly on par, if not greater than Terran weapons.

Starlight Breaker ruins shit.
Magic ruins shit. (Ancient Belka and Al-Hazred). So do grenades, guns, and bombs. To state that magic is any less destructive is to turn a blind eye. Not only that, ONE PERSON can do all that. On Earth, it requires many people.

Thank you for not answering, therefore doing exactly what you accuse me of.

But I will do you the courtesy of answering your post, because this seems to have flown right past you the past few times it was mentioned.

It was NEVER the argument that Magic couldn't be as destructive as mass-based weapons. The argument was always: "Magic is more versatile, flexible, and capable of being safer to use than mass-based weapons." Magic can kill and can blow up, but it can do so much more; it can pound through several layers of walls to strike out and knock out someone on the other side with no lasting harm.

Mass-based weapons can ONLY kill. The other part of the argument is that ANYONE can use a mass-based weapon. Therefore you can pump out billions of them and arm people to the teeth. Wheras magic needs a mage and those can be better controlled.

[Gimpy]

I mainly lurk and just enjoy reading the debates and stuff, but I'm confused as to what reproduction has to do with guns, too. I thought this argument was about the TSAB and magic verses guns?

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Mass-based weapons can ONLY kill. The other part of the argument is that ANYONE can use a mass-based weapon. Therefore you can pump out billions of them and arm people to the teeth.

Isn't that exactly the point of mass based weapons (where we mean firearms)? From a pragmatic and pratical point of view, I would rather, if I was a competent and thinking officer, equip and train as much troops as possible in a short time than waiting for my fancy mages to come with their new fancy toys while a bunch of rogue mages are blowing up shit because they could!

"Metafiction" point of view is the only way I could try rationalize TSAB being inept. (well, yeah, no one cares about grunts and they are here to make the core cast look good anyway! Rule of cool and all)

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Isn't that exactly the point of mass based weapons (where we mean firearms)? From a pragmatic and pratical point of view, I would rather, if I was a competent and thinking officer, equip and train as much troops as possible in a short time than waiting for my fancy mages to come with their new fancy toys while a bunch of rogue mages are blowing up shit because they could!

It's very very smart to remove options from your police force. More options = better ability to respond to each unique situation. So yes, firearms can only kill, and as was stated in dozens of posts (not only mine), magic can kill as well, but can also stun, pass through various materials, be tuned for various effects, bind, capture, shield, put out fires, protect from various gases, fly, etc.

Given the choice, would you honestly go with just a gun, or would you go with magic as laid down by the series? Because to me, and many other people, magic looks damn appealing. It can basically do whatever you need it to.

So either you take the option with one choice. Or take you take the option with dozens of choices.

"Metafiction" point of view is the only way I could try rationalize TSAB being inept. (well, yeah, no one cares about grunts and they are here to make the core cast look good anyway! Rule of cool and all)

TSAB has never looked inept to me. Have issues sometimes dealing with problems all over the galaxy, that comes in all sorts of random and unknown shapes and sizes, but they tend to get the job done with a minimum of fuss and loss of life.

[itanshi1]

Actually, nanoha is very nice to grunts. the very first red shirt scenario, they were recalled and 'saved' as it were.

I don't think my arguments are being considered :/

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

It's very very smart to remove options from your police force.

I like how you oversimplify things to your own convenience. In the last news, SWAT and riot control forces also have non-lethal options! It's the magic of combined arms and armor.

More options = better ability to respond to each unique situation. So yes, firearms can only kill, and as was stated in dozens of posts (not only mine), magic can kill as well, but can also stun, pass through various materials, be tuned for various effects, bind, capture, shield, put out fires, protect from various gases, fly, etc.

Bulletproof vest, clubs, tonfa, stungun, tear gas, water cannon, guns, riot shield, flashbang grenades. Certainly Earth is not that bad when it comes to the more extreme side of law enforcement (like keeping hooligans quiet).

Given the choice, would you honestly go with just a gun, or would you go with magic as laid down by the series? Because to me, and many other people, magic looks damn appealing. It can basically do whatever you need it to.

I would STILL go for the cheaper option that can be given to anyone who were unfortunate to not be born or trained as mage.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by itanshi1

Actually, nanoha is very nice to grunts. the very first red shirt scenario, they were recalled and 'saved' as it were.

I don't think my arguments are being considered :/

Sometimes you bring up points that are too good, and the only choice is for people who disagree to ignore them completely, heh. But yeah, you are bringing up good points.

Originally Posted by Sheba

I like how you oversimplify things to your own convenience. In the last news, SWAT and riot control forces also have non-lethal options! It's the magic of combined arms and armor.

But we're not talking about that; we're talking about mass-based weapons, firearms. And no, SWAT doesn't have non-lethal options. That's the propaganda that they try to sell you, but they are more accurately called "less lethal" because anything they do can kill. Magic can get the job done without risk of death, plain and simple. I love how you keep trying to ignore that point, though. My prediction is that your next post will ignore it as well. And again. And again. And again.

Bulletproof vest, clubs, tonfa, stungun, tear gas, water cannon, guns, riot shield, flashbang grenades. Certainly Earth is not that bad when it comes to the more extreme side of law enforcement (like keeping hooligans quiet).

Each one of these can injure heavily or end up killing someone. Less lethal than guns, but still carries lethal potential. Magic doesn't. You know, the point you keep ignoring.

I would STILL go for the cheaper option that can be given to anyone who were unfortunate to not be born or trained as mage.

You'd spread guns around, eh? Yeah, why don't you go ask Somalians how well that's workin' out for them?

By the way, remember to ignore the point in your next post, about how magic can stop people without any risk of death or injury. Only by ignoring it, can you continue to try and argue your points!

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Sometimes you bring up points that are too good, and the only choice is for people who disagree to ignore them completely, heh. But yeah, you are bringing up good points.



But we're not talking about that; we're talking about mass-based weapons, firearms. And no, SWAT doesn't have non-lethal options. That's the propaganda that they try to sell you, but they are more accurately called "less lethal" because anything they do can kill. Magic can get the job done without risk of death, plain and simple. I love how you keep trying to ignore that point, though. My prediction is that your next post will ignore it as well. And again. And again. And again.



Each one of these can injure heavily or end up killing someone. Less lethal than guns, but still carries lethal potential. Magic doesn't. You know, the point you keep ignoring.



You'd spread guns around, eh? Yeah, why don't you go ask Somalians how well that's workin' out for them?

By the way, remember to ignore the point in your next post, about how magic can stop people without any risk of death or injury. Only by ignoring it, can you continue to try and argue your points!

Yes, I know magic cannot kill. And know what? I would still rather arm grunts and train them with those weapons rather than waiting for Nanoha to save the day. Because they are CHEAPER to make than our mages' shiny toys and it will be FASTER to train the grunts to use them, so they can defend themselves or die trying rather than looking like helpless deers in front of a huckie in a "OH NOES IT'S A GUNDAM!!" fashion.

And no, just because you take the Somalia example does not mean that the TSAB grunts or Mid civvies will suddenly cast the Firearm Apocalypse on Mid!

[itanshi1]

what evidence is there of cost?

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Yes, I know magic cannot kill. And know what? I would still rather arm grunts and train them with those weapons rather than waiting for Nanoha to save the day. Because they are CHEAPER to make than our mages' shiny toys and it will be FASTER to train the grunts to use them, so they can defend themselves or die trying rather than looking like helpless deers in front of a huckie in a "OH NOES IT'S A GUNDAM!!" fashion.

And why exactly would a grunt with a gun not stand looking like helpless deers in front of a huckie in a "OH NOES IT'S A GUNDAM!!" fashion?

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Yes, I know magic cannot kill. And know what? I would still rather arm grunts and train them with those weapons rather than waiting for Nanoha to save the day. Because they are CHEAPER to make than our mages' shiny toys and it will be FASTER to train the grunts to use them, so they can defend themselves or die trying rather than looking like helpless deers in front of a huckie in a "OH NOES IT'S A GUNDAM!!" fashion.

Who says Nanoha has to be the one? A grunt should be able to stun or bind just as easily.

But you really think mass-producing guns will somehow make everyone safer?

And no, just because you take the Somalia example does not mean that the TSAB grunts or Mid civvies will suddenly cast the Firearm Apocalypse on Mid!

Okay. How about Rwanda? I know I know, that's not too fair, either? How about Brazil? Mexico? The United States?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_deaths

Are all those deaths worth the chance that maybe, in some rare hypothetical situation, might save a person. Or two. Possibly.

Or to put it another way: Homicide rates in the United States are two to four times higher than they are in countries that are economically and politically similar to it. Higher rates are found in developing countries and those with political instability.

The graph there shows about 10,000 deaths by handguns each year in the US. How many people are you willing to sacrifice in the name of safety and security? Just tell me that, because I can respect a decision to kill some people in order to make some others safer. I wouldn't agree with it, but I could understand it. It would make a lot more sense than tossing a bunch of guns out there just to see what happens.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Do you not see the ethical problems here? A cyborg is like Ix, a human made into a weapon with no thought to what they want. That's not something you can just force onto someone unless you are particularly sadistic. I mean, take a look at how Ix felt about the whole thing.

A cyborg does not necessarily have to not like their role. National security often does not allow for perfect morality - the very nature of coercion works against that. However, on the axis of coercion it is no worse than conscription. On the axis of turning someone into a cyborg, really, they are probably better off in many respects as one, so if societal discrimination is a minimal factor it is really a net gain. In any case, the combined weight of both axes is arguably outweighed by the immorality of not optimally defending your citzenry, or the immorality of sending weak volunteer mages (sheep) into the AMF, Lost Logia or rogue strong mage slaughterhouse.

It's interesting that I have to make the proper counter-arguments. If anything, focus your energies on that little conundrum.

Just because I am pointing out a point of agreement doesn't mean I'm not ready to make my own arguments.

It only takes one example to prove you wrong. Given the fact that we've had TWO incredibly close calls, I'd say you just got lucky. But luck runs out. The concept is called MAD, Mutually-Assured Destruction, and assumes rational players.

In fact, both "close calls" as you call it are instances of the system working. A system is supposed to allow that single (or even dual) points of failure do happen and stop catastrophe. In the Cuban missile Crisis, advanced technical means of controlling nuclear weapons are not yet in service, but in the end the additional personnel on board stopped the entire process. In Petrov's case, the computer has a false alarm, which is hardly unknown with real detection systems - if you crush all the false positives, you will probably get false negatives. If they were so confident about it they'll link the warning system directly to the next stage (we are still at least a couple of stages from missile launch), but they know it isn't, so the system allowed for a human to make the call, and he performed his function correctly. These are examples of the system working, not the opposite.

Compare that to the single point "system" apparently beloved by the TSAB when it comes to the Arcenciel.

The "serious AMF" you refer to is the ship cutting magical links, which it could only do so inside. Jail himself never had that ability. The best he could do were the limited AMF of the drones, and by the end of StrikerS, the red shirt army could still deal with that despite any lack of CAMF training.

No threat = no biggie.

Dangerously naive assumption. Do remember that the drones are supposed to be cheapies, so they almost certainly carry only enough AMF instead of as much as Scarlietti could make them carry to facilitate mass production. And it proves to be adequate, as can be seen by the way even Aces can be neutralized and forced into alternate attacks at first. Against normal mages this should be overkill.

What you are seeing in StrikerS is a temporary period in which CAMF training outpaces the speed that Scarlietti can (or wants to) upgrade the AMF. However, we already know this is a game that is ultimately won by AMF so given enough time and need and what we know of the energy output potential of Jewel Seeds, Scarlietti will almost certainly come out with a "Full-Shafter". If he is given more warning by mass training in CAMF (which will take years to implement), he'll be forced to change his tradeoffs and upgrade, and in good time. In which cases he'll be ahead of the Aces and Forwards in the curve, and they may well die in the first battle. Intentionally or unintentionally, a case can be made that Regius really saved our heroes by banning AMF training.

Wrong. Example: Teana. A "normal" mage who, thanks to training, has moved into AA rank. In other words, a normal mage became an ace thanks to training. That was her whole story arc in StrikerS.

Actually, StrikerS' whole story arc is about Teana (which was apparently at least a local elite, though of course far from Nanoha level) learning to live and making the best of her own limitations.

If you want to see the real balance between talent and training, consider how fast Nanoha became a threat. Talent is 9 parts of the equation, especially as you reach the real elite.

I've said this several times before, so you probably aren't reading posts. It was a wake-up call, and they DID start taking measures. Hence the new weapons. Perhaps you aren't exactly aware of the timeframe it takes to develop a new weapon from scratch, but the average is 5 to 10 years. And look, here we are in Force, 5-6 years later, and they have weapons now in the usable prototype stage.

Read what I said. It is a minimum movement posture that doesn't even seal the threat against them. They didn't even bother to make one for ships.

Human nature is human nature regardless; that's what allows us to watch these shows and identify with the characters; because they are human and not aliens. If you try to argue this, then you are basically saying, "well, um, we can take this and this from human nature and apply it the characters; but not that or that! Why? Because I said so, that's why!"

Then you'll understand that human nature has many aspects, not all of which are warlike.

Wrong. Al Hazard was specifically said to have destroyed itself due to high technology. The Belkan Wars may have started magical, but they progressed to a lot of mass-based weapons that eventually rendered several planets either destroyed or uninhabitable.

Lindy mumbled gijitsu in that episode, but did not make it clear whether it was magic or mass. From the artifacts that are left, we are forced to presume "mostly it is the magic". Same with Belka.

Wrong again. The TSAB is a police force for dealing with lost logia; it doesn't involve itself in the internal affairs of planets. If they really wanted to pacify Orussia, they could. A few Arc shots from orbit would seriously put things down. And magic being far superior to mass-based weapons, would mean mages could walk into the area, unleash a stun-nuke, then destroy the weapons one-by-one.

The fact that you are already thinking of Arcenciel says much about your acceptance that there are limited means the mages can really use. As for "stun-nukes", the fact they don't do as you say says much about the realism of the scheme. Even Hayate's Hraesvelgr nukes have limited radius and seem only effective against relatively fragile targets like flying Gadget drones.

If they wanted to, the TSAB could deal with the situation easily. But they weren't founded for that purpose and thus practice non-intervention (except where lost logia could cause a dimensional disturbance).

Completely unsubstantiated (and from what we can see of mages real capabilities, mostly wishful) assertion.

But Japan wasn't arc'ed, because magic is more versatile.

Versatility that is almost useless, because nobody even thinks of it.

If all they had were mass-based weapons, then Japan would have been nuked to deal with the out-of-control book. So, speaking as a TSAB person, "Why should I develop and use mass-based weapons when Magic solves my problems better?"

Actually, it was at sea so it would have been messy but at least the destuctive radius won't be over 100km. As for the whole teleportation thing, it is much neutralized by the very fact that TSAB officers don't even think of it until 9-year-olds point it out to them.

Besides, the main point in that paragraph was to point out the sheer lack of control the TSAB has over their magical weapons, which shafts any theoretical advantages they may have. Don't shift the topic.

For the Bureau, magic is far better than mass-based weapons based on every conceivable angle. The only argument that could be made, would be AMF (debatable, but the Bureau instituted counter-measures in training and prototype weapons anyway, a smart move), and complete magic nullification like the Huckbein. And for that, they are using their new weapons. The ONLY additional point that could be made, is why they aren't bringing the cyborgs in. No other argument holds any weight.

ROFTLMAO. It is true that magic-weapons have stun effects, and they are guided. On the other hand, they lack speed and range, and are poor in concealment. In fact, a large part of the reason they are guidable and have to be guided over such short distances is their lack of speed, so if they aren't guided they are doomed to miss.

Nope. Because you keep forgetting that one is a dumb weapon that can be mass-produced, and one relies on the power of an individual. They are NOT alike in that manner. The point you keep ignoring is that the individual is easier to regulate, track, and license. Much easier than trying to track billions of guns.

Yes, but now you are increasingly shifting the topic from "magic weapon" to within "individual strength".

Considering the weapon is powered by magic, it's a safe bet that Lindy's device is the Arthra, but that she requires her crew to charge the weapon before she can fire it. So, mage at the helm.

This ignores the fact that there was not half a hint Lindy was involved in the shot beyond putting in a firing key, something any muggle could do.

Fate was hit with a Starlight Breaker, and came out of it okay. Arguably BETTER afterward considering she joined up with Nanoha.

Do remember that Fate was a very powerful mage in her own right. Teana's shot was clearly modulated, and it was pointed out explicitly that Nanoha was very good at control. Combined with what happened to poor Vice's sister. The overall indication is they are not intrinsically safe - like a rubber bullet the LD:ED ratio (to to speak) is better, but it is no complete lifesaver.

it's been shown that people get BETTER when hit by stun magic!. :P

From what I can see, any improvement was due to extensive work done after the shot, not the shot itself.

But it's made easier when, after it's made, it's given to one person to plant and push. You know, sorta like how the USSR made thousands of nukes, quite a few of which have gone missing.

I have heard rumors, but never hard facts on this. There are four possibilities:
1) Though there was confusion, no nukes were lost. Which means the control was better than you thought it was.
2) Nukes were lost but they never made it to the other side. Ditto.
3) Nukes actually made it to the other side but they can't use it. Which means the technical difficulty is higher than you thought.
4) Nukes actually made it to the other side, they can use it, but they don't. Which means human nature is more rational, or at least more self-preserving, than you thought.

Mass production to mages which is what you keep forgetting.

Which still means proliferation, and leakages, and counterusages.

Nope, over all. There about 100 aces overall, and only a handful of those become Ace of Aces (Nanoha's, Fate's level).

Really, how about a quote.

[PhoenixFlare]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Look, Phoenix, I tried to type up a response, but a lot of your analogies are just plain silly(comparing guns to pebbles and sex? Seriously?), and I've long lost sight of what you're trying to prove. Plus, these things are getting too long, so I'll just sum things up:

The TSAB is actually fairly smart for an organization, dedicated to maintain peace through magic, which has actually worked out quite well for them. Mass-based weapons, being less-versatile and only have one setting (kill), aren't needed and aren't worth the cost. They've been able to deal with everything just fine so far.

And the one time they come up against something they didn't expect, they have a normal response time in developing counter-measures for the future.

In short, business as normal.

Well, I guess some people can't really draw a correlation between two distinct, but similar analogies unless they use the same entities used by another person's analogy (oh, the woe of human creativity!) ... Here I was thinking shared abstraction is a concept familiar to you. Guess I was wrong.

The idea of the reproductive system was to mimic the pattern or attribute of your guns to nuclear weapons analogy. They are definitely and meant to be not the same thing, but the correlation between them is clear.

When you said guns led to nuclear weapons, I countered by alleging the understanding of the reproductive system led to an increase of rapes and premarital sex.

Both analogies follow the same pattern: discovery of something leads to something bad (this is what is called shared abstraction, if you don't already know). So, since both discoveries are bad, one viable option is to ban them from human knowledge, which is what the context in Nanohaverse is about. The outcome of this ban should be what you and I want: the reduction (or better yet, total annihilation) of the bad things from the discoveries.

But, we know that it is not the case; nuclear weapon proliferation (and in my case, increased rapes and premarital sex) will happen one way or another even if mankind were not to know about guns (and in my case, the reproductive system). Advancement does not happen in a singular cause-and-effect scenario, so it invalidates this argument of yours that I specifically replied to:

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Wrong. You are ignoring the very argument Earth's history. Because guns didn't eventually lead to nuclear weapons, right? Oh wait, they did. Because humans like to fight each other, and thus, they'll continually try to make better stuff to do it. So, unless you're willing to deny Earth history, your argument is shot down right here at the very start.

Hopefully, that is clear to you and everyone else, for that matter.

And if you don't understand why pebble was mentioned, I had specifically made it easier to understand in the same post (which I presume you just gloss over them):

Originally Posted by PhoenixFlare

I don't see why you just want to point this out though, since my argument was that even if you banned gun ownership, anyone who really, really wants to kill somebody has many other substitutes to choose from, a pebble included. You may as well ban someone from using his fingers.

======

In response to your other point for this "one-time threat", they are still needing time to perfect these new prototypes when they could've easily deployed normal mass-based weapons (which they have a knowledge of) to deal with the threat quickly. If you're countering with "founding principles", please do go have a look at what I replied to Keroko in the Manga thread.

Or, to prevent laziness:

Originally Posted by PhoenixFlare

I don't see the problem of TSAB actually using their previously banned mass-based weapons to their advantage right now, but indicate it clearly that this is only a temporary measure to deal with this specific threat. The ban is excluded only for the frontline members, and non-personnel found in possession of them will be persecuted. This still places the restriction in place without "breaking their founding tradition".

Granted, the plot may become invariably disinteresting, but that is where creativity is supposed to kick in.

Originally Posted by itanshi1

I don't understand the problem here. I thought my post handled it pretty well. Japan has no guns and functions decently despite it. So, too, does the TSAB. The series is written for the Japanese audience in a realm they can relate to.

Whose to say 'dumb' weapons are effective against magic? The best prohibition is obsolescence.

Well, I never did disagree that having no guns work in Japan. If it works for them, it works. But, the complexity of the situation is never just because the Japanese are not wielding a gun that violence and murders are toned down. It may be an indirect effect of the law, or a shifting change of perception in the people, or something else, that is contributing to the overall picture. Attributing it to a "no-guns law" alone is misleading.

If you see in certain countries, the normal people are never allowed to own a gun. But, despite the law, aggression and violence still happen (and probably rising). So, we can't ever draw a direct correlation between the two points.

We don't know if "dumb" weapons are effective against magic (since we're never given the chance to examine them ), but these "dumb" weapons can be used readily on the threat right now we're wondering why it is not done so (which somehow led to this debate).

[dahak]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

The ONLY additional point that could be made, is why they aren't bringing the cyborgs in.

They've got the most experienced combat cyborg with them, one of the two with the best wrecking stuff Integrated Skills.

Its not like they haven't brought any of them and none of the others would individually be as useful.

[dahak]

Originally Posted by PhoenixFlare

If you see in certain countries, the normal people are never allowed to own a gun. But, despite the law, aggression and violence still happen (and probably rising). So, we can't ever draw a direct correlation between the two points.

The UK has about a 1/3 the murder rate of the US. That is despite being the UK being more urban. IIRC Japan is similar to the UK in this.

The last year for which we have figures violent crime dropped 3% in England and Wales. So no violence is not probably rising despite the recession.

[itanshi1]

Originally Posted by PhoenixFlare

The idea of the reproductive system was to mimic the pattern or attribute of your guns to nuclear weapons analogy. They are definitely and meant to be not the same thing, but the correlation between them is clear.

When you said guns led to nuclear weapons, I countered by alleging the understanding of the reproductive system led to an increase of rapes and premarital sex.

This is dead wrong tho. Education about the reproductive system reduces sex overall. The only studies that say otherwise have funding misappropriation. Lack of education about sex leads to sex, often sex in those societies is the only activity anyone knows how to do. Hence why rape is so prevalent in poor countries.

The primary argument against handguns is the 'dumb' factor. Not everyone is a mage in Nanohaverse and even fewer are WMD variety. We don't need NPC gang violence. They have limiters for a reason too. I don't care if you say 100 or so, that is still a very small number compared to what the US arsenal has of their own brand of luls.

I don't think its a problem if the series itself questions the weapon types allowed.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

It's very very smart to remove options from your police force. More options = better ability to respond to each unique situation. So yes, firearms can only kill, and as was stated in dozens of posts (not only mine), magic can kill as well, but can also stun, pass through various materials, be tuned for various effects, bind, capture, shield, put out fires, protect from various gases, fly, etc.

I don't think anyone is advocating a wholesale replacement of magic with guns, so most of your shot here is a red herring. But for specific points.

Stunning is usual, but it also has limitations. The evidence suggests that it is more of an incremental improvement on our "less-lethal" stuff than something that is inherently non-lethal. And like real "less lethal" rounds, magical rounds are slow - in fact, it is harder to make them non-lethal as they get faster, just like real rounds.

Pass through various materials. Well, if you have AOE capability or Windelshaft. The average mage will still have to do it the old fashion way.

Be tuned for various effects. Sometimes, but again something not really available to the rank and file.

Bind, OK. Capture is kind of like bind.

Shield, OK, but we are going from offensive applications to defensive.

Put out fires ... another rare one as far as can be seen. Most are still relying on those ridiculous puff puff extinguishers.

Protect from various gases. Yes, they have proven to have limited NBC capability, but only if they are prepared. Unlike a gas suit, if they are hit by a sudden attack, they'll die before they can adapt.

Fly, OK though that's a medium rare, and you forgot heal.

As something for the gendarmie magic is pretty nice. As something for operations closer to the military end of the spectrum, in comparison to even our own rounds (let alone something that an interdimensional civilization can dream up), they lack speed, range and in an environment that uses magic as well, concealment.

[dahak]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

A cyborg does not necessarily have to not like their role. National security often does not allow for perfect morality - the very nature of coercion works against that. However, on the axis of coercion it is no worse than conscription.

Engineering people as weapons that need expensive long term engineering support is no worse than conscription?

When it is conscription plus making them dependent on ongoing support from the military or finding someway of substituting for it after they end their term of service?

Not to mention TSAB doesn't practice conscription [Suberu wouldn't have had the option not to join the military if that were the case.]. It occasionally appears to use military service as a form of voluntary criminal restitution but that isn't of the level of conscription.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

On the axis of turning someone into a cyborg, really, they are probably better off in many respects as one, so if societal discrimination is a minimal factor it is really a net gain.

Except for the body image problems Suberu mentioned, the implied reproductive sterility and the expensive maintenance needed. I'm not sure why your assuming minimal discrimination either, given the way Suberu was cagey about who she told about it.

It makes you good in a fight or a disaster but I'll note Suberu didn't end up with the quiet and peaceful life she wanted. She hasn't even despite her professional specialization not including combat managed to keep from being thrown into combat regularly.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

In any case, the combined weight of both axes is arguably outweighed by the immorality of not optimally defending your citzenry, or the immorality of sending weak volunteer mages (sheep) into the AMF, Lost Logia or rogue strong mage slaughterhouse.

Except of course TSAB who have a better idea of the limitations and disadvantages of combat cyborgs felt the production of them was immoral and not cost effective. There is a point where things carry too high a moral price [Americans seem to thing gun control is such a point despite the immorality of not optimally defending your citizenry.]

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by dahak

Engineering people as weapons that need expensive long term engineering support is no worse than conscription?

When it is conscription plus making them dependent on ongoing support from the military or finding someway of substituting for it after they end their term of service?

One would think in exchange for the gain in combat power, the TSAB might feel inclined to provide "veterans' benefits" (after a long service period) and give them a checkup.

Not to mention TSAB doesn't practice conscription [Suberu wouldn't have had the option not to join the military if that were the case.]. It occasionally appears to use military service as a form of voluntary criminal restitution but that isn't of the level of conscription.

I'm talking about the "moral repulsiveness" level of it, rather than saying the TSAB practices conscription at present.

Except for the body image problems Suberu mentioned, the implied reproductive sterility and the expensive maintenance needed. I'm not sure why your assuming minimal discrimination either, given the way Suberu was cagey about who she told about it.

From what we can tell, nobody was ever put out about it. Nobody seemed to mind the Cyborgs. It really isn't such a public relations disaster.

It makes you good in a fight or a disaster but I'll note Suberu didn't end up with the quiet and peaceful life she wanted. She hasn't even despite her professional specialization not including combat managed to keep from being thrown into combat regularly.

Yes, and she's relatively happy because she can do that. She'll probably be much less happy if she was a normal human but (as will statistically be likely) she lacks the ability to protect those she loves.

Except of course TSAB who have a better idea of the limitations and disadvantages of combat cyborgs felt the production of them was immoral and not cost effective. There is a point where things carry too high a moral price [Americans seem to thing gun control is such a point despite the immorality of not optimally defending your citizenry.]

Immoral I can see. Cost effectiveness is you taking them on blind faith, certainly some within it feel so strongly the other way they are willing to risk their asses on it, which is a lot stronger than merely mumbling agreement with the status quo.

In any case, personally I'm long past the point when I can just assume they know best in the face of everything else.

Among OECD countries, America does have a fairly high crime, including homicide, rate. On the other hand, it is far from clear how much of it is due to guns and how much of it is due to subtle cultural and geographic factors.

And ultimately, "too high a moral price" has to be weighed against the opposite end, which in Mid can be extremely heavy. National security / world threatening heavy, which is not a scenario familiar to our world. An increased ability to deal with those threats is worth a lot in Midchildra.