[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Kiltias]

Originally Posted by qno2

Though having Kinzo's body move over to the chapel is very unusual without a t the first four episodes, now that the 1st twilight of EP2 leaves room for one...

Why move over?
He was there the whole time.
People believe he is alive when he is dead, the body has gotta be somewhere seeing that he was used as a fake victim.

And wasn't it that whenever used as fake victim it was in the Main Mansion which is the closest to the Chapel?
Hardly see him being left there let alone the Hidden Mansion.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by qno2

Though I'm more talking about Meta-Beato (depending on how you look at that matter = Itsuko/post-1986-Yasu) covering up than Author-Yasu. From the illusion of the witch to Shkanon basically. Doesn't mean that this line of thought can ignore the first two episodes though, since we received the red from Meta-Beato, not the author.
The original author would still keep her original intent.

Yup, didn't really express myself well in my last post, sorry.

It's okay but I think even meta-Beato wanted Battler to figure her heart out, not Prime.

Originally Posted by qno2

Wouldn't really speak against the Witch/Shkanon hiding the truth from Battler and Ange actually, since all the speculation still spoke about the "Witch Serial Murder", not "White-Haired Demon Murder".

The point is that before people were accepting the police's theory of an incident, while the messages raised the suspicion someone did it and caused the people to speculate and, among the speculations, the Rudolf family culprit theory grew interesting.

So, although the Kyrie culprit isn't now the sole theory going on, people are considering the possibility she andRudolf were culprits while first it was dismissed as an incident. I see this as a worsening of the situation, not as an improving it.

Originally Posted by qno2

Personally I never saw a point in author-Yasu throwing out her stories anyway, regardless of whether she planned a murder game, an actual mass murder (actually, there it could have a purpose: "to keep them alive for all eternity in stories" ... yeah) or nothing at all, so I generally don't believe they served any real purpose - it was an emotional act. "Ah, just like in 'And then there were none'. Maybe someone will someday find them and discover my twisted and confused heart. Tell me, dear reader I will never know, what path should I take? I will be too late however. So please, just understand me." Which would imply that the whole incident wasn't really anything she planned, all just a weird accident and coincidence as it tends to happen in stories.
If she wants to be understood, why did she try everything in her might to hide herself? Good question, Dlanor's little speech at the end of Our Confessions might relate to it (about how Beatrice claims that "if only 1 in a 1000 can understand me that is enough").

Ep 5 more or less answered to this, comparing Beato (and therefore Yasu) to a shy girl in love who's afraid to declare herself and yet is trying to write a love letter and even Battler commented she went at it in such a roundabout way that her message risked being impossible to get.

There's to say Yasu is defined as shy and part of her message involves her having a wound that makes her body impossible to love so maybe she didn't feel like telling this openly.

That and Ryukishi needed an excuse to set up his plot, which I find, in points like this one, a bit weak.

[GuestSpeaker]

The only plausible murder motive in the entire series is Kyrie's motive to kill Asumu, especially if you read between the lines a little bit. Even then, that's so unfathomably specific that it isn't generalizable as a culprit theory; Kyrie's motive is so plausible only because we actually know exactly who she wants to kill and why. If you remove the cause or the victim, there's no more motive.

What reading between the lines did you do? I thought it was pretty explicit...


As for Kinzo in the chapel, sorry but

All six were killed by other people

we know from other ep's that Kinzo cannot be said to have died in this manner, and in fact likely died of natural causes.

Also I didn't quite get the food thing.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker

What reading between the lines did you do? I thought it was pretty explicit...


As for Kinzo in the chapel, sorry but

All six were killed by other people

we know from other ep's that Kinzo cannot be said to have died in this manner, and in fact likely died of natural causes.

Also I didn't quite get the food thing.

It's an interesting find.
So should we assume Yasu killed him as well? Personally I can't say I was satisfied by how his dead was handled in EP 7 but I admit I've accepted it as natural... though maybe she killed him in the sense she refused to forgive him and this broke his heart more than she stabbed/poisoned/shoot/strangled/whatever him...

[Kealym]

Originally Posted by Kiltias

Wasn't it that not a single name was mentioned in regards to EP2s 1st Twilight?

I would argue that this doesn't work since there was a VERY CLEAR implication of who "the six" referred to. In fact, those reds are a response to Battler saying "Dad and the rest blah blah blah".

On a more semantic level, "the six" have to be dead upon discovery, and Kanon's case is arguable, but Genji and Rosa are never discovered dead in EP2, by your theory. The read about the six being "genuine victims" is a direct response to Battler's "One of the six was the culprit, and this person killed the other five, then pretended to be dead."

Lets look back at some events.

Originally Posted by Kiltias

Who are the ones that knew about the "Guest"?
Rosa,Kyrie,Shannon,Kanon,Gohda and Genji.
I like to point something out.
Kyrie was the one who blurted out about the guest that appearantly those 6 only saw.
It resulted in a (bleep)storm just when dinner was served.
Kyrie told Gohda to ask Genji about this (despite she saw him with her, unless that was Anime only) and Nanjo left with him for no real reason given.
Natsuhi told Nanjo to take the kids along.
But who are left behind:
The ones in the chapel.

Quibbles, here.
Kyrie blurted out "I thought there was supposed to be a special guest", and didn't mention actually having SEEN her until Rosa claimed seeing her, first.
Secondly, Ghoda never saw Beatrice. He was informed by Genji.
Thirdly, Kumasawa knows as well, since she was in the kitchen during Ghoda's rant about it.
Thirdly, Nanjo left because he did not belong in the adults discussion. The children were told to leave, and Nanjo announced he would go with them, in that order. Why would he stay around during the siblings arguments?
Fourthly, though the passage of time is rather vague, everyone seemed to be well into their dinner. The kids all said they were in the process of eating, several lines refer to dinner "moving along", and Natsuhi makes a point of making sure dessert will be sent to the kids in the Guesthouse.

Also, Jessica has several asthma attacks, unless you mean to say that Kratsuhi makes regular practice of poisoning their daughters, and only their daughters, food every now and then.

Of course the ones remaining were the ones in the chapel - it's a consistent opening that the adults, or at least a lot of them, are killed together on the first night. They're always grouped together for the conference, and they would be the largest obstacle to the murders going off smoothly.

Originally Posted by Kiltias

Yes one could argue "Nowhere does it say the 7th and 8th need to be staked", then again I point to that completely contradicting the existance of 7 stakes or the MO of the first 2.
As I said before:
Seeing it that way means that killing Rosa and Maria = Killing Leviathan and Belphegor = no 6th or 7th stakings.

EP4 also only used 5 stakes. And in Our Confessions there isn't even a death at the second Twilight, and only 5 stakes are used, as well - it seems to me that "tear apart the two who are close" just means there's a lot of wiggle room for what actually happens at that stage.

Originally Posted by Kiltias

And wasn't it that whenever used as fake victim it was in the Main Mansion which is the closest to the Chapel?
Hardly see him being left there let alone the Hidden Mansion.

It's in the main mansion because that's where the furnace is, most like. I doubt the one in the Guesthouse would work since it's a much newer building, and what would be the point of chucking him into Kuwadorian?

Originally Posted by jjblue1

So should we assume Yasu killed him as well? Personally I can't say I was satisfied by how his dead was handled in EP 7 but I admit I've accepted it as natural... though maybe she killed him in the sense she refused to forgive him and this broke his heart more than she stabbed/poisoned/shoot/strangled/whatever him...

It WAS pretty heavy handed to have him drop dead like 5 minutes after giving everything to Yasu. But ... from Ryu's perspective, he pretty much HAD to die like that, or obviously he would've announced stuff to the entire household and his lawyers and stuff, in the morning.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker

What reading between the lines did you do? I thought it was pretty explicit...

The timing of the remarriage and Ange's birth leads me to believe that Kyrie was pushed over the edge because she had actually become pregnant already. She would've killed Asumu if it meant legitimizing her child with Rudolf (and thus her relationship with him). He wouldn't be able to marry her if his wife were alive (and Ange would've been a bastard and Kyrie a single mother), so this is the perfect impetus for Kyrie's hatred of Asumu to finally boil over and force her hand.

Likewise, Rudolf wouldn't have any reason to marry again that quickly unless he was under a particular deadline. What seemed to bother Battler was the suddenness of that action. Rudolf and Kyrie don't normally act hastily, so there'd have to be a reason for that. They have to marry fast or it will become increasingly obvious that Rudolf was cheating on his late wife. Unfortunately, by marrying fast they also become suspicious, although Battler seems to have missed the signals and assumed it was for a different reason.

I forget how explicitly Kyrie brought this up, but I vaguely recall her dancing around the exact rationale in her talk with Jessica in Dawn. She may have said that outright at some point and I just forgot about it. Either way, it seems pretty obvious. Unfortunately it also makes Asumu's death seem incredibly convenient, which makes you wonder whether Kyrie was telling the truth that her death miraculously didn't require Kyrie to do anything. If it's true, then it becomes very suspicious as it means that Kyrie was essentially "blessed" by both Lambdadelta (with the certain will to kill Asumu) and Bernkastel (with the miracle that Asumu would die without Kyrie having to dirty her hands).

[Valkama]

One thing that I find interesting about the chapel murder is it is one of the only places where everyone is confirmed to be dead and not the culprit.

There are 11 people left so 11 new possible theories.

Shkanontrice - Canon

Shannontrice - Easier more manageable version of Shkanon.

Kanontrice - You just have to get past his deaths and you are golden. Funny enough Shannon is only said to be dead once in the story while Kanon is dead multiple times. Makes you wonder if Shannon's only death is her real death.

Gohdatrice - Perfect Flawless theory.

Genjitrice - Just no. If someone could work together a Genjitrice theory then I would be impressed.

Kumasawatrice - Might be possible although Episode 1 is a problem.

Nanjotrice - Works out pretty nice for 2-4 but Episode 1 is a problem.

Georgetice - Not a bad candidate for the culprit. He always lives till near the end and is almost never confirmed dead.

Jessicatrice - She's in the same boat as George.

Mariatrice - Well she certainly almost always lives near the end but she almost always has an alibi. Considering this game is Japanese I wouldn't be surprised if the culprit was the creepy little girl.

Rosatrice - Not going to talk about this.

Regarding the whole motive for Kyrie, you would really only need a Motive for Rudolf considering Kyrie said she would do whatever Rudolf asked her to do EVEN MURDER her whole family. I feel like Ryukishi was having a field day when he wrote that line.

[AuraTwilight]

Except what if Kyrie is the culprit and Rudolf isn't? You don't have to tether the two to each other like EP7 does.

[Renall]

Kyrie also says, repeatedly, that she's always tried to be the brains for Rudolf because she thought that's what he wanted. Everyone else also acknowledges that Kyrie is smart and nearly every Kyrie/Rudolf plan is confirmed to have been her idea.

So I think we need to look at the motive for her, because it seems like she can convince Rudolf of things if she needs to and the idea will generally originate from her. Which isn't to say Rudolf even actually has to be involved, but if he is, it's probably because of her direction rather than the other way around.

[qno2]

Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker

What reading between the lines did you do? I thought it was pretty explicit...


As for Kinzo in the chapel, sorry but

All six were killed by other people

we know from other ep's that Kinzo cannot be said to have died in this manner, and in fact likely died of natural causes.

Also I didn't quite get the food thing.

Judging from EP7 you could say that he died because of Yasu. Kind of a stretch in semantics there but that's what it takes to make an alternative theory to Shkanon I suppose. Can't be more ridiculous than some of the Rosatrice-stuff.

Originally Posted by Kealym

I would argue that this doesn't work since there was a VERY CLEAR implication of who "the six" referred to. In fact, those reds are a response to Battler saying "Dad and the rest blah blah blah".

There is also pretty clear implication who "everyone else" refers to in EP6. Then Shkanon happened.


Problem for this development is why she'd kill Rudolf then. Even in her "worst possible incarnation" in the TP of EP7 she wouldn't have done that. Guess we can assume he didn't go along with the murders after all? Setting aside that Kyrietrice is not an intended solution anyway of course.

Originally Posted by jiblue1

So, although the Kyrie culprit isn't now the sole theory going on, people are considering the possibility she andRudolf were culprits while first it was dismissed as an incident. I see this as a worsening of the situation, not as an improving it.

That's why I can't really see Yasu having any other reason than her 'emotional issues' (and a bit of romanticism, throwing a letter into the ocean with your darkest secrets, deepest fears, hopes and her confession of love written therein; in hope somebody, maybe even "that special one", might find them...) for throwing the original letters out into the ocean.

Let's assume she actually tried to influence the afterworld in some way or fashion relating to the incident she might've known something about/tried to start herself: It's not like she could've predicted how the letters would affect anything really, if they're even found. Maybe no mystery movement would be created, maybe someone would solve it the moment he/she lays eyes upon them, maybe somebody just considers it toilet paper, maybe everyone except her will he considered a possible culprit and goats start gnawing away at the illusion of a happy family causing Ange unbelieveable pain, etc.

So even if she knew that a mass murder is about to happen it's hard to imagine how she tried to use the letters for her's or anyone's benefit. Heck, if we take the last example it might be the easiest to assume she did it out of anger towards Ange for leaving their little witch-society - and that's pretty harsh for something as little as that. Better to assume they had no 'logical' goal in the first place I think (at least I can't find one).

[GuestSpeaker]

Thirdly, Nanjo left because he did not belong in the adults discussion. The children were told to leave, and Nanjo announced he would go with them, in that order. Why would he stay around during the siblings arguments?

Furthermore, the very thing they are arguing over is a lie Nanjo is UP TO HIS NECK IN. I think that is what Will was getting at in ep 7, because chances are that time in the parlour is NOT the only time Eva asked him about Kinzo. With everything Krauss and Natsuhi had at stake, they weren't cracking, and with the family barely recognising that the servant's exist (they don't even look at their faces) he is the next logical choice to pressure. If I were him I'd be getting the heck out of there too, before the family asked me what my last medical exam actually consisted of.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

It's an interesting find.
So should we assume Yasu killed him as well? Personally I can't say I was satisfied by how his dead was handled in EP 7 but I admit I've accepted it as natural... though maybe she killed him in the sense she refused to forgive him and this broke his heart more than she stabbed/poisoned/shoot/strangled/whatever him...

When the six were killed in the chapel, the culprit was inside the chapel!

So using Kinzo as the extra body doesn't work unless he was murdered, and murdered inside the chapel by a culprit who was also inside the chapel. And since Kinzo is already dead at the starting time for all games! his murder would have had to taken place on an earlier date. Of course, depending on interpretation, this is all technically possible, in much the same way a George family solution was possible in Bern's game in EP8.

But still, the idea that Kinzo was actually murdered originally is interesting. The timing of his death in Yasu's story always did seem contrived.

Originally Posted by qno2

If she wants to be understood, why did she try everything in her might to hide herself? Good question, Dlanor's little speech at the end of Our Confessions might relate to it (about how Beatrice claims that "if only 1 in a 1000 can understand me that is enough").

I think it does. It's supposed to be a coy confession of love, right?

Just realized that that's probably a hidden double meaning in the title Our Confessions...

Anyway, from the perspective of Ikuko=Yasu and post-incident authorship, the bottle stories could simply be an extravagant way for Ikuko (Yasu) to write to Touya (Battler) anonymously.

-------------------------------------------------

So, I was thinking I would like to open a discussion on Our Confessions. Namely, what is it? Does such a story exist in Prime in the first place (even if unfound/unreleased)? If so, when was it written? Based on the meta-notes, which refer to the Siestas and Gaap, it was conceived at least after Banquet and probably Alliance. Assuming the meta-narrative follows the same timeline as Prime, that makes it impossible to be a genuine authored-pre-incident bottle-story. Yet it was thematically presented as such.

Then there's Dlanor's role. What does it mean for Dlanor to release the incomplete manuscript after Beatrice's death? Who, or what mechanism is Dlanor representing here?

[Drifloon]

But still, the idea that Kinzo was actually murdered originally is interesting. The timing of his death in Yasu's story always did seem contrived.

That reminds me of Kinjo's third game, where Nanjo was secretly poisoning Kinzo for a long time before that and the shock of seeing Beatrice finally finished him off.

But anyway, wouldn't the main problem with Kinzo being used as a corpse in the chapel be that he looks nothing like Kyrie anyway? I mean, there's a Knox rule against characters being disguised as other characters without clues.

Regarding Our Confessions, I'd have to go back and check over the parts that reference the Siestas and Gaap, but Yasu and Maria DID originally invent those characters, so I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility that she could have used them in other message bottle stories that were never found.

But I think the whole dynamic between Dlanor and Beatrice is more of a metaphor for Ryukishi's own decision to release the story, rather than a representation of something in-universe. That is, Ryukishi was originally not going to release any more hints and accept the fact that some people would never accept the solution, but he changed his mind and released Our Confession out of his desire for more people to come to the truth. That's how I see it, anyway.

[qno2]

Originally Posted by Drifloon

But anyway, wouldn't the main problem with Kinzo being used as a corpse in the chapel be that he looks nothing like Kyrie anyway? I mean, there's a Knox rule against characters being disguised as other characters without clues.

He doesn't really need to actually. If we use our most "beloved" excuse for 'fake-murders', death-make-up, then Kyrie would be just sitting there with the others - relying on a certain psychological effect on part of the witnesses. If you see a scene as gruesome as this, you'd probably just assume that they're all dead without looking too closely. Same reason why Battler mentioned during the 1st twilight in EP1 that there are more corpses than he has fingers on one hand - he just saw something resembling a corpse (maybe a broom with Shannon's stockings and shoes at the end) and assumed that it's another one.

Of course, the "death-makeup" is a shitty excuse for anything buuuut at least we're aware of it.

Kinzo's remains would just sit wherever they are until someone decides to get rid of them. Regarding the visit that George and pals give them later (since Kyrie would need to go off and do her thing): highly unreliable scene to begin with and Kinzo could now take Kyrie's place, taking advantage of the darkness

Did we twist the story enough?

[Drifloon]

So Kinzo's remains have been in the chapel all this time? That's kind of brilliant, actually.

It just goes to show how you really can make anything work with the red if you try hard enough.

[qno2]

Actually the red when the six were killed in the chapel, the culprit was inside the chapel! is really a bane for this line of thought.

Okay, maybe we can twist semantics in a way that makes Yasu "the reason" for Kinzo's death as portrayed in EP7, the "culprit", but why did he die in the chapel then? Did he ask to be brought there in his dying moments? That's kind of stretching it, there are no hints. If anything we could say that Kinzo might think that a chapel, especially the one he build for himself and Beatrice, is a fitting place for his end. After all, he has finally reunited with Beatrice - therefore he can walk through the chapel-doors together with her.

Setting aside that Kyrie definitely wouldn't be there, so we'd need to assume that "the culprit" refers to the culprits of their respective "crime" (in quotationmarks for Yasu); therefore it'd refer to both Yasu AND Kyrie... again, this is stretching it.

But considering the basis of this theory, that Shkanon, Yasu's self-insert, is taking the blame for a crime she didn't even commit in those stories (of course only in relation to this theory), it'd be fitting to call her just a "culprit" (mind the quotationmarks), while Kyrie, the one she is supposedly covering for Battler's and Ange's peace of mind, is a culprit (mind the lack of quotationmarks) - both of them could be seen as one.

This kinda WMG-ed out of control. Completely.

[Valkama]

Well really the only way to get Kyrie out of the chapel is to say that someone else was dead in her place. This is the only way to get really anyone out of the chapel. Going through EP2's red truth that mention's people by name we get.

This morning, Rosa definitely took an envelope out of Maria's handbag, and thereby obtained the genuine key to the chapel

The letter that I handed over to Maria and the one Rosa opened are the same thing

Kanon was killed in this room

No one exists in this room except all of you. 'All of you' refers to Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, and Shannon

When Jessica's corpse was discovered, only Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in Jessica's room

[Whoops, the corpse of] Jessica is also included

Natsuhi's own key was in George's pocket, and the inside of the room was closed off

Only the five master keys were left, and 'Rosa' was holding all of them

There are a few more red Statments with Rosa's name in EP4 but they aren't too significant.

So everyone's name was mentioned meaning the only way to get Kyrie out of the room is the same she inherited a name. I actually remember Battler using this argument with Kanon. So perhaps when you disguise as someone you inherit their name. (Would definitely make Shkanon nicer. Like every time Yasu dressed up as Kanon/Shannon she inherited their names rather than switching personalities). In this instance Rosa = Kyrie is possible. Someone should look through EP2 and see if their are any clues to Kyrie = Rosa.

[qno2]

Originally Posted by Valkama

So everyone's name was mentioned meaning the only way to get Kyrie out of the room is the same she inherited a name. I actually remember Battler using this argument with Kanon. So perhaps when you disguise as someone you inherit their name. (Would definitely make Shkanon nicer. Like every time Yasu dressed up as Kanon/Shannon she inherited their names rather than switching personalities). In this instance Rosa = Kyrie is possible. Someone should look through EP2 and see if their are any clues to Kyrie = Rosa.

Originally Posted by qno2

Totally (non)serious solution: Or is Rosa a title that belongs to the best mum ever? Finally that red (or was it just a blue that wasn't denied because Beato wasn't really in the mood?) from EP4 really means something! Kyrie earned herself the title of best mum ever in EP2 and is henceforth known as "Rosa".

Kyrie deserves being called "best mum ever". Though this one beats KNM's explanation of Kanon's 'death' in EP1 in terms of being ridiculous, maybe there are some serious hints.

Why can't she get out though (geniune question, been a while for me since I read EP2)? Apparently, if we want to take any hints from the magic scene of George & pals, it seems to be possible to unlock the door from inside. If in doubt, bring some strange mechanisms from the shed. In any case, is there any red that seals "those in the chapel" that I've forgotten?

[Valkama]

Originally Posted by qno2

Why can't she get out though (geniune question, been a while for me since I read EP2)? Apparently, if we want to take any hints from the magic scene of George & pals, it seems to be possible to unlock the door from inside. If in doubt, bring some strange mechanisms from the shed. In any case, is there any red that seals "those in the chapel" that I've forgotten?

By out of the chapel I mean make her not dead considering Beatrice says six people are definitely dead inside the chapel and they are all victims. She never states names so it's possible someone inside is not who they appear to be.

[qno2]

Which is why we're discussing the possibility that Kinzo was "killed" ( = died because of the actions of someone else) back then inside the chapel, which actually isn't entirely without hints: wasn't it said that the chapel exists so Kinzo could walk through the door together with Beato? It has a certain "beauty" to it if he did it with Beato the third, just to die in there. Both a "wedding" and a funeral. Of course, in its essence this is another semantic cheat, I'm not saying that it is a good solution. In fact it seems kinda impossible to get Kyrie out of there without some rather outlandish ideas.

Therefore we'd have our sixth victim, Kyrie would be alive, and not in hiding because everybody saw her (another semantic cheat).

The approach of inheriting a name was actually cut down anyway, wasn't it?

Originally Posted by EP4, ????

The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself!
A different person cannot claim his name!

Their conversation is also implying that this whole idea is kinda ridiculous. Of course this is Umineko, can' t make assumptions.

Nonserious approach: Maybe "Kanon" is the 'name' of the clothes, then you could switch to being Kanon via dressing up. Gives brands a whole new meaning, if you wear, say, Calvin Klein you ARE Calvin Klein. Deep statements about the nature of "you are what you wear", thank you Ryukishi. What was the name of Rosa's brand again? Clearly we have found x, an unknown label! ... okay, enough joking around, sorry.

(warning, wild mass guessing incoming) They didn't use it on Kinzo though so it might be possible to use it on him... as in, becoming the head. Which might explain why Kinzo was so active (considering he's dead) in that episode... maybe one of the six took on his name, gained the position of the head (in that case... the gold has been found after all, hints exist). So Kyrie did indeed "die" (dealing with the issue that the six had been clearly specified), and became Kinzo. Which would also deal with all the issues we'd have with, you know, the servants and setting up the banquet.

...

...

This is getting silly. Blasted red. I apologize.