Nanoha - StrikerS - Episode 21 Discussion / Poll

[arkhangelsk]

Rear engines might be a bit tough - it doesn't look armored, but by definition the nozzle would be designed to resist high temperatures and stresses. Besides, there's the problem of flying in against the reaction forces of the engine.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by LoweGear

Have we actually ever seen visible external engines though? The Cradle doesn't look like it has any

It does have glowing nozzles, IIRC they are pinkish.

Spoiler for Helo pilot spoilers:

Oh, BTW, I'm watching the show. I find it stunning our replacement pilot shows more evasive piloting skills than Vice, who so far had shown not even the skills for a sharp descent into town when targeted.

[Kha]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Spoiler for Helo pilot spoilers:

Oh, BTW, I'm watching the show. I find it stunning our replacement pilot shows more evasive piloting skills than Vice, who so far had shown not even the skills for a sharp descent into town when targeted.

Spoiler for Reply:

Might just be biasesness, saving the chance to dodge small arms fire for the ladies.

But of course the flipside of the coin is that Vice kept the transport helicopter out of danger enough to not have that situation.

Something called the "Dead Man's Curve" I believe keeps a heli from descending beyond a certain speed, and to dodge a fully charged Heavy Barrel needs thrusters not just gravity.

[LoweGear]

Originally Posted by Kha

Spoiler for Reply:

Might just be biasesness, saving the chance to dodge small arms fire for the ladies.

But of course the flipside of the coin is that Vice kept the transport helicopter out of danger enough to not have that situation.

Something called the "Dead Man's Curve" I believe keeps a heli from descending beyond a certain speed, and to dodge a fully charged Heavy Barrel needs thrusters not just gravity.

Spoiler for geek time:

The "Dead Man's Curve" is actually a term used to describe the minimum altitude and speed a helicopter must maintain in order to achieve rotor autorotation in case of emergency. Below this "curve", a helicopter will have insufficient speed and altitude to perform an autorotation landing safely.

My opinion: Vice sucks at defensive heli piloting

[Kha]

Originally Posted by LoweGear

Spoiler for geek time:

The "Dead Man's Curve" is actually a term used to describe the minimum altitude and speed a helicopter must maintain in order to achieve rotor autorotation in case of emergency. Below this "curve", a helicopter will have insufficient speed and altitude to perform an autorotation landing safely.

My opinion: Vice sucks at defensive heli piloting

Oh. Mix up.

Anyway, the other thing is, Gadgets are a lot less acurate. The fact that there were two of them further reduced their hit rate due to the Anime Law of Inaccuracy of Numerous Cannon Fodder.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by LoweGear

My opinion: Vice sucks at defensive heli piloting

Well it was a sneak attack back in episode 12 while this time Alto was on full alert

Then again, it's easier to chalk it down under the biasness that they all so willing displayed.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Kha

Spoiler for Reply:

Might just be biasesness, saving the chance to dodge small arms fire for the ladies.

But of course the flipside of the coin is that Vice kept the transport helicopter out of danger enough to not have that situation.

Something called the "Dead Man's Curve" I believe keeps a heli from descending beyond a certain speed, and to dodge a fully charged Heavy Barrel needs thrusters not just gravity.

Spoiler for Helo Discussion:

If I remember correctly, his helo was never put into danger except that one time, and he did as far as we could see nothing. At least do some maneuvering, Vice!

Spoiler for Ray Storm:

Remember Ray Storm and it blowing past Shamal's shields? Now are we shown Ray Storm hitting and not even cratering the highway? Hah?

Spoiler for Number 12:

As least this one wasn't shafted and showed off her brute strength that allowed her to render Zafira combat ineffective in a single blow. Teana is lucky to be alive!

[An Hero in Disguise]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Spoiler for Ray Storm:

Remember Ray Storm and it blowing past Shamal's shields? Now are we shown Ray Storm hitting and not even cratering the highway? Hah?

Lazy animators are LAZY

[Estavali]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Spoiler for Number 12:

As least this one wasn't shafted and showed off her brute strength that allowed her to render Zafira combat ineffective in a single blow. Teana is lucky to be alive!

Come to think of it, didn't Erio got hit at the back too? Man, that kid must be made of Gundam stuff.

Originally Posted by Burner of Anime

More worried about Teana. Poor girl has some really stacked odds to overcome.

Then again, I just realised the Numbers have boxed themselves in with the Higurashi Hatchet Girl as a playmate In addition to her known ruthless streak [headshot to loli, crit. strikes to Nanoha, friendly fire incident, ect... ], she's also shown to be driven, resourceful as well as highly unconventional.

Still feel she can use her fakes though, the Number girls only found her out by disregarding her false attacks and narrowing in on the real ones. Good for Jail if he put that in [Numbers must be pissed it took so long ]. Cornered, injured and forced into some "out-of-the-box" thinking, I believe there will be an upcoming showcase on what a anime horror/thriller/slasher movie should look like...

This, I think, is a good time for Cross Mirage's final form to make its grand entrance. And if Tia has mastered that supposed Phantom **** skill, maybe that to can help turn the tide as well.

But at the end of the day, I still think she's gonna get out of this with sheer smart thinking. I might be biased, but so far the Numbers (other than Quatro and mayhaps Otto) don't seems to be very smart in terms of tactics as well (if most of the plans so far came directly from the Doc). Most of the time they do seem to rely on their unique abilities, pairing and element of surprise to throw out the opposition.

OT, but I was thinking: would StrikerS be better (and easier to manage) if the Forwards were Rare-Skill Users that have little to do with conventional magic? Subaru is already one (STKJ), Erio (human eel) and Carol (summoner) just need a bit of tweaking to achieve that status. Tia poses the most problem to this suggestion (despite the fact that she uses a rather unique form of Midchildan magic), but on the other hand this difficulty could also help to highlight her intelligence and give her even more development space (the good old "if this doesn't work, then I'll just make sure I make it work somehow!").

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

Lazy animators are LAZY

True, but I was going on suspension of disbelief? Besides, this is the grand finale battle series. Put the money into this, man!

Spoiler for Barrier:

OK, Teana gets trapped into what seems to be a barrier, but who set it up?

Spoiler for Numbers Tactics:

Well, whoever is coming up with the tactics, they are showing much more tactical ability than RF6. The Numbers show a good grasp of the dictates of the situation - that little Forward squad is a combined arms team that really is somewhat effective only with all four present or at least two present. Break them up and they are just about as one-trick-pony as the Numbers, but the Numbers got more power. Good tactics Numbers, too bad this is MGLN and the best man doesn't win!

[An Hero in Disguise]

Originally Posted by Estavali

OT, but I was thinking: would StrikerS be better (and easier to manage) if the Forwards were Rare-Skill Users that have little to do with conventional magic? Subaru is already one (STKJ), Erio (human eel) and Carol (summoner) just need a bit of tweaking to achieve that status. Tia poses the most problem to this suggestion (despite the fact that she uses a rather unique form of Midchildan magic), but on the other hand this difficulty could also help to highlight her intelligence and give her even more development space (the good old "if this doesn't work, then I'll just make sure I make it work somehow!").

Involvement of the conventional magic makes them more versatile and open for improvements, I don't think anything should've been changed here.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

Lazy animators are LAZY

Perhaps Ray Storm is counter-magic?

Think Mana Burn.

Originally Posted by Estavali

Come to think of it, didn't Erio got hit at the back too? Man, that kid must be made of Gundam stuff.

Remember, he was kicked around by the Type-3 ...

Originally Posted by Estavali

OT, but I was thinking: would StrikerS be better (and easier to manage) if the Forwards were Rare-Skill Users that have little to do with conventional magic? Subaru is already one (STKJ), Erio (human eel) and Carol (summoner) just need a bit of tweaking to achieve that status. Tia poses the most problem to this suggestion (despite the fact that she uses a rather unique form of Midchildan magic), but on the other hand this difficulty could also help to highlight her intelligence and give her even more development space (the good old "if this doesn't work, then I'll just make sure I make it work somehow!").

Illusion spells are considered rare as well, so basically all of the forwards weren't so 'ordinary' to begin with. They just didn't focus much on those abilities. I don't think they should get rid of the 'conventional' magic though, won't be as fun.

[An Hero in Disguise]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

True, but I was going on suspension of disbelief? Besides, this is the grand finale battle series. Put the money into this, man!

They have ~4 episodes of action to be animated, it couldn't be perfect.

Spoiler for Barrier:

OK, Teana gets trapped into what seems to be a barrier, but who set it up?

Otto

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Perhaps Ray Storm is Anti-magic?

Think Mana Burn.

But it caused considerable damage to RF6 HQ back then.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

They have ~4 episodes of action to be animated, it couldn't be perfect.

Otto

Thanks, thought it might be her.

Spoiler for EW capability:

The Numbers show superior radioelectronic reconaissance capabilities as usual, easily intercepting enemy comms. Man, if they ever get Scarlietti, they need to make him a Modern Warfare Principles Instructor...

Spoiler for Anti Sub Warfare:

Finally, someone comes up with the correct tactics when faced with Sein - hit the ground. At least you'd force the kid out, as she just did. At least I think Schach can beat Sein...

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

But it caused considerable damage to RF6 HQ back then.

Or, she could have been controlling the output of the attacks.

EDIT: As in I scratch that anti-magic idea.

[Estavali]

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

Involvement of the conventional magic makes them more versatile and open for improvements, I don't think anything should've been changed here.

Perhaps, but it's the AMF issue that (for one) bothers me. From the start we are led to believe that AMF will play an important role in this story (RF6 was, IIRC, supposed to be formed of people who can fight better and normal magi, which may also include the Aces, in AMF-ed situations). All of a sudden AMF ceased to become an issue anymore, with the pink rays of doom and etc piercing through them despite their obvious ineffectiveness in the manga.

Aside my dislike for inconsistencies, I'm a firm believer of the idea that the AMF concept should have been one of the main underlining theme. Nanoha and co can say that other magi are helpless in AMF-ed situations but if they themselves can deal with these like any other situation, where and what's the difference?

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Remember, he was kicked around by the Type-3 ...

They didn't show the actual blow, but with Deed holding her blade above head and above Erio, and that resounding flash of light, it's pretty obvious how Erio was brought down.

Illusion spells are considered rare as well, so basically all of the forwards weren't so 'ordinary' to begin with. They just didn't focus much on those abilities. I don't think they should get rid of the 'conventional' magic though, won't be as fun.

Who said about deleting conventional magic? ^^ I just suggest that the Forwards, at least, should be Rare-Skill Users. Nanoha and co can still stick to conventional magic.

[Nightengale]

Maybe Otto just controlled the damage and radius output?

After all, that attack was really meant to split up the Forwards so that things work to their advantage, since their best Combat Numbers (( Tre/Sette )) are back home and they can't completely rely on superior power.

So, they deal with the bothersome illusionist that is also the team center through isolation and superior numbers along with mixed combat tactics and range. I've gotta say, it was smart not to let the other Numbers face Subaru, despite Nove clearly wanting Subaru, since Subaru's extremely dangerous against close-combat Numbers, so Ginga was a reasonable choice, while Otto handles team coordination, and leave Lutecia to deal with Lighning.

Originally Posted by Estavali

Perhaps, but it's the AMF issue that (for one) bothers me. From the start we are led to believe that AMF will play an important role in this story (RF6 was, IIRC, supposed to be formed of people who can fight better and normal magi, which may also include the Aces, in AMF-ed situations). All of a sudden AMF ceased to become an issue anymore, with the pink rays of doom and etc piercing through them despite their obvious ineffectiveness in the manga.

Aside my dislike for inconsistencies, I'm a firm believer of the idea that the AMF concept should have been one of the main underlining theme. Nanoha and co can say that other magi are helpless in AMF-ed situations but if they themselves can deal with these like any other situation, where and what's the difference?

AMF concentration, it seems. Though still, it didn't make complete sense with the first manga chapter, where Accel Shooter was totally ineffective against FREAKING TYPE-ONE DRONES! That aren't even huge in numbers!

I don't mind the Aces having the ability to penetrate AMF, but they're shown to be like hot knife through butter in the anime.

Some aspects of anti-AMF combat seemed to have got brushed over by the simple assumption that since the Aces are so l33t, they can just overcome the AMF's effects by brute strength anyway, since the aspects of tactical combat and fighting in StrikerS is devoted towards Numbers and Forwards, and less of the Aces.

[Estavali]

Originally Posted by Nightengale

Maybe Otto just controlled the damage and radius output?

After all, that attack was really meant to split up the Forwards so that things work to their advantage, since their best Combat Numbers (( Tre/Sette )) are back home and they can't completely rely on superior power.

So, they deal with the bothersome illusionist that is also the team center through isolation and superior numbers along with mixed combat tactics and range. I've gotta say, it was smart not to let the other Numbers face Subaru, despite Nove clearly wanting Subaru, since Subaru's extremely dangerous against close-combat Numbers, so Ginga was a reasonable choice, while Otto handles team coordination, and leave Lutecia to deal with Lighning.

Wouldn't it be more true that the chibis, or rather Carol, messed the original plan up by going after Lutecia herself, resulting in the current situation?

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Nightengale

Maybe Otto just controlled the damage and radius output?

After all, that attack was really meant to split up the Forwards so that things work to their advantage, since their best Combat Numbers (( Tre/Sette )) are back home and they can't completely rely on superior power.

Spoiler for Otto's Ray Storm:

Perhaps, but if the kill or heavy damage can be obtained with the shot, there's little reason for them to be too unhappy about it as well. Ah well, at least the rest is intelligent on the Numbers' part. Maybe Otto just needed to watch his batteries or something...

Originally Posted by Estavali

Wouldn't it be more true that the chibis, or rather Carol, messed the original plan up by going after Lutecia herself, resulting in the current situation?

Spoiler for Carol and Erio:

Well, maybe but I suspect they would have been split up eventually by the Ray Storms anyway. In any case, if that was the case even picky me won't blame them too heavily. They couldn't very well see Lutecia target the helicopter and do nothing. Yes, of course it is a violation of discipline and loss of the operational goal, but considering how much of that is already going on, at least they are being human...

[An Hero in Disguise]

Originally Posted by Estavali

Perhaps, but it's the AMF issue that (for one) bothers me. From the start we are led to believe that AMF will play an important role in this story (RF6 was, IIRC, supposed to be formed of people who can fight better and normal magi, which may also include the Aces, in AMF-ed situations). All of a sudden AMF ceased to become an issue anymore, with the pink rays of doom and etc piercing through them despite their obvious ineffectiveness in the manga.

Aside my dislike for inconsistencies, I'm a firm believer of the idea that the AMF concept should have been one of the main underlining theme. Nanoha and co can say that other magi are helpless in AMF-ed situations but if they themselves can deal with these like any other situation, where and what's the difference?

I also expected AMF to play a more significant role.