2013-01-19, 03:08 | Link #1161 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: classified
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And a sword properly wielded is a deadly weapon in CQB.
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2013-01-19, 03:22 | Link #1162 |
廉頗
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Massachusetts
Age: 34
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Are swords regulated? I know certain types of knives are. As far as I know, Japan (incidentally) also has a law in place banning swords that stems back from the Meiji Restoration sword ban, though I don't know the exact particulars of it.
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2013-01-19, 03:54 | Link #1163 | ||||||
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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As for Israel. I wouldn't model your gun policies on a state that is in a perpetual guerrilla war. Furthermore, in Israel you cannot legally keep a gun unless you live in a dangerous area (IE the settlements). You certainly aren't allowed to own a gun in Tel Aviv. Quote:
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2013-01-19, 04:31 | Link #1164 | ||
Meh
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Now, to the constitution I find it interesting that you're adopting quite the literalist interpretation here. But I think it's important to point out that it's up to the SCOTUS to interpret them, and generally speaking the SCOTUS tends to frown upon interpretations that become a run-around of the spirit of the law as they see it. This is why the anti-gun crowd couldn't just get ammunition banned even though it's not explicitly mentioned in the 2nd Amendment - as doing so would institute a de facto ban, since ammo is an inherent part of a functioning firearm. I'd imagine that claiming that people can still own guns while instituting what is effectively a blanket ban falls under the same category, and far exceeds what was considered "reasonable regulation" under Heller. The letter of the law is important, but so is the court's interpretation of the intent of the law, as it is impossible to write laws that would cover all the possibilities. This goes for everything from SCOTUS ruling on the constitution to a county court dealing with your everyday crime cases. I mean, really, all you have to do is to look at how the Commerce Clause has been used throughout the years to see just how far something can be stretched . Moreover, there certainly hasn't been any "reinstated" bans, and if they do get reinstated, it'll certainly be up to the SCOTUS to determine its constitutionality, as it's guaranteed that it'll be challenged in court. Quote:
Last edited by kyp275; 2013-01-19 at 04:44. |
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2013-01-19, 05:07 | Link #1165 | |||
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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However I wouldn't advocate a ban that would de facto make guns pointless. In the US, people should be able to own a gun, and ammunition for that gun. But I think it's well within the spirit of the constitution to limit particularly powerful firearms. Quote:
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Now the extent of how large the restrictions should be is a tricky question, but I don't see why any restrictions at all is somehow controversial. Also, more generally as an aside, I find it worrying that so much attention gets put on defending gun rights, and far less on much more fundamental centuries old principles like Habeas Corpus. Banning guns is not the inevitable lead up to tyranny (almost every democratic government in the world has extensive gun control laws), while Habeas Corpus is a fundamental ingredient of democracy, it's much more important to securing our freedom. |
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2013-01-19, 05:39 | Link #1166 | ||||||
Meh
Join Date: Feb 2008
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I also dispute that technology advancement angle. Should the government be able to abolish free speech and infringe on people's privacy over the phone and internet because the framers could not have foreseen them either? Quote:
AFAIK, during the 94 AWB, there was never any real attempt to challenge it in court due to the perceived liberal leaning of the court - it's better to not sue at all than to sue and get an unfavorable ruling, setting a precedent against yourself in the future. It's a much different picture today though, with a slight conservative leaning in the SCOTUS, and more importantly with DC v. Heller and McDonald v. Chicago clearly established the ground rule. Quote:
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On a side note, should the day when there's a need to demand habeas corpus ever comes, an armed populace would probably make a much more convincing argument than an disarmed one. Just go ask the Syrians, how seriously did Assad take them before they got their own weapons? Last edited by kyp275; 2013-01-19 at 05:49. |
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2013-01-19, 06:05 | Link #1167 | |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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You wouldn't get through a security gate with either, mostly because guards think water bottles are deadly weapons. I have walked through a number of security points with my cane (which has a steel core, a bone handle and is kind of a nasty tool but hey, I'm limping when I use it). Realistically, I'm not expecting to wander around with sword ... though I have done that in chain mail and viking gear. Downtown. At NASA. Never even questioned. Mostly it would be a home defense tool. Heck, I have machetes for brush clearing, too. Fear my potato rifle and cannon?
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2013-01-19, 08:06 | Link #1169 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
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Countries that have strict fire-arm bans in place often restrict other forms of weapons as well for obvious reasons.
The guiding principle is the monopoly of violence by the state as described by Weber. This is a two edged sword (pun not intended) as it forces the responsibility on the state to protect it's citizens from violence. This is not the case in the US. The responsibility has historically been shared by both citizen and state. As can be seen in the second amendment but also in the lack of crime prevention by law enforcement as described earlier by Vexx. You can't really implement large scale gun restrictions without rethinking the legal foundations. |
2013-01-19, 08:19 | Link #1170 | |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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Then that isn't a sign that America needs more guns; that's a sign to get the hell out of the country. Excuse the hyperbole, but if one need guns to feel safe, I expect such nations to be something akin to Afghanistan. I don't know if your claims are true or not, only that it gives the impression that Americans don't obey laws.
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2013-01-19, 08:45 | Link #1171 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
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In some countries, violence out of self-protection is a justifiable transgression, not a right. It really depends what role the state plays in society, I'm not judging simply stating differences. |
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2013-01-19, 09:19 | Link #1172 | |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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If you need a gun to protect yourself despite your tax dollars paying for the existence of a police force, then the question is if the military budget should be shrunk to pay for better police. No point having a strong army if your cops can't be relied upon domestically.
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2013-01-19, 10:52 | Link #1173 |
Tastes Cloudy
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Snake Way
Age: 35
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I would like them to stop getting on Video Games, Make it so store workers can refuse to sell to a older person who is buying a game for their kid. Otherwise they can get fired by the "Boss"
If a kid comes in and a older person. pay attention and if they are trying to buy them a game rated out of their age range, Refuse to sell it to them.
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2013-01-19, 10:58 | Link #1174 | |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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2013-01-19, 12:48 | Link #1175 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Virginia
Age: 46
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And on another note to Don, in the Second Amendment it says the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall NOT be infringed. Sure they could amend that, but could you just imagine the outcome?
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2013-01-19, 13:03 | Link #1176 | |
Meh
Join Date: Feb 2008
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adding to what lost said,
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As for police response time, it varies GREATLY depending on where you live. Remember, police departments in the US is largely a local affair - there is no central policing authority, the vast majority of the work is handled(and funded) on the city/county level by they're own department, or if they don't have one (and yes, many cities DONT have police dept.), by the county sheriff. You can have response times that ranges from 5-10min, to 40, 50min, and sometimes even longer. For some it'll be due to an overextended or incompetently managed department, in some cases it'll be because of geographic limitations. |
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2013-01-19, 13:05 | Link #1177 |
Banned
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The 2nd amendment is a right to bear arms. Arms can mean anything: swords, knives, handguns, assault rifles, Stinger missiles, tanks, fighter jets, etc. So, technically, we shouldn't ban any of those. Since we have, then the 2nd amendment has already been violated with bans, and those with guns have done absolutely nothing about it.
What if I want to play with tanks with my friends? Shooting off real live ammo from an M-1 Abrams tank with all the trimmings? Shouldn't I be allowed to buy and own one right off the assembly line? The real truth is, even the first amendment has some infringements; the oft-referenced "shouting FIRE in a crowded theater" for example. Or speech that leads to the harm of another. So we don't need to change the 2nd amendment at all. The Supreme Court has re-interpreted the amendments various times before, and we already ban people from owning certain arms. So banning handguns is no big deal, and the courts have a ton of precedent for it. And we obviously need to do some banning and more gun regulation, since the US has far more gun death and violence than the vast majority of other civilized countries. The only reasons to own one are sporting and hunting, so we can narrow the law down to just those two aspects, and heavily regulate them. |
2013-01-19, 13:08 | Link #1178 | ||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: classified
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Under our constitution the Federal government cannot define what are and are not protected arms (they don't have that power outside of amending the constitution). The Supreme Court judges the statutory laws based on the US constitution. They are supposed to base any decision of arms using the meaning of the 2nd amendment as illustrated by the notes, congressional hearings, and speeches given by the founding fathers themselves. The SCOTUS has judged that the 2nd amendment is an individual rather than collective right in DC vs. Heller, so they essentially ended the practice of banning arms. They did this (according to Scalia) to protect law abiding citizens. Owning firearms (heck any arms) in the United States is not a privilege, we are not subjects to a king or monarch. Under our system the government is our servant not the other way around. That is the primary difference between the US and many other countries, especially the Common Wealth countries and Japan. We've no King, or Emperor, thus our rights are considered to be natural in that we have them from birth, not as a result of society or government (even democratic government). That is not my opinion, that was the opinion of the founding fathers. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Liberty is synonymous with "Free State" and the 2nd amendment states the following: A well-regulated [trained] militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. Thus we the citizens of the US are free people in the sense that we have inalienable rights that are protected by the constitution. Among those rights is the right to keep and bear arms since all citizens are part of the militia (well able bodied males, ages 17-45 at the very least). Quote:
Gatling guns are legal as are fully functional cannons. Quote:
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Again I'll re-post the US vs. Miller decision: “…in the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a shotgun having a barrel of less that eighteen inches in length at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that is use could contribute to the common defense…” The Supreme Court is stating in Miller that a double-barrel hunting shotgun is taxable because it is not a military weapon in common use Here is a picture of the same kind of weapon that Miller had in his possession before he died (he was a bootlegger): Savage Model 411 "Coach" shotgun in 12 gauge. That was deemed taxable under the NFA of 1934, but not bannable. Anyone who passes a background check (FBI detailed check, not the instant check system) can still buy one today. But the Supreme Court deemed that weapon was not a military weapon useful to the militia. In that case they declared that the militia was the abled bodied citizenry of the US and not the National Guard. So yes, the SCOTUS did declare what weapons are not bannable and what weapons are. Military and Paramilitary style rifles are not, hunting and sporting weapons are. You must understand, the founders of this country modeled the militia after the Athenian model. Quote:
So this "oh you don't have an unconditional right to free speech" is a strawman argument when applied to the United States. The origin of that "argument" came from Schenck v. United States, 249 US 47 (1919), when the Supreme Court explored the limits of First Amendment protection of free speech. That decision was amended in Bradenburg v. Ohio, 395 US 444 (1969). In Bradenburg, the Court held a person could not be punished for using offensive or infammatory language, but only by inciting "imminent lawless action," with "lawlessness" being a likely outcome of the speech. When applied to the 2nd amendment, the simple ownership of a machine gun, or paramilitary weapon is not a cause of "imminent lawless action" especially when combined with proper militia training in the CMP (which is why I want that to become mandatory, and have written both my senators about it, and all reps). Thus, the 2nd amendment does not protect the use of arms for lawless purposes (robbery, murder, rape, theft, or other criminal enterprise). Therefore, in the context of gun control a gun control law like the Brady Law is constitutional so long as it doesn't outlaw or ban any weapons, but only attempts to prevent the lawless use of arms. Whereas the 1994 assault weapon ban was clearly unconstitutional since it was not intended to prevent lawlessness, it was intended to disarm the law abiding popluation. Punishing the people who obey the laws is counterproductive to preventing lawless actions. Especially when your country is innundated with MS-13, Crip, and Blood gangs who can (and do) smuggle weapons across the US/Mexican border both into and out of the United States. Heck even Navy Seals are getting caught selling real assault rifles from Iraq to Mexican Drug gangs. Quote:
Make no mistake about the prejudice of the Israeli government. I'm sympathetic to their cause, but I'm not going to sugar coat their attitude towards the Palistinians. As the article you linked to clearly states: Israeli law does not guarantee the right to bear arms as the US Constitution does. They have no 2nd amendment, and thus are subject to the whims of the Israeli government with regard to owning arms. The US is unique in that it does have a garauntee. Therefore, by combining the Israeli policy with the 2nd amendment, we get a cheap, affordable, and useful defense of schools via CCW (Concealed Carry Weapon) permit holders being allowed to carry in schools by repealing the Gun Free Zone Act of 1995. It won't stop all of the deaths in an attack, but it has a much better chance of lessening the damage than any ban will. Quote:
I share his sentiments. Especially when we remember why Timothy McVeigh bombed the Murrah building in the 1990s. It was due to the 1994 assault weapon ban, the Waco Massacre by the ATF, and the Ruby Ridge murders by federal agents, by his own admission. He was one person who did a lot of damage, now imagine millions of people pissed off enough to do that. Not something I want to see, nor have to live with while its going on. No gun control law is worth that level of violence. Quote:
Maybe rated "M" games should have a warning label added to tell idiot parents not to buy their kid the game if he's on psychotropic anti-depressants or has mental issues? It wouldn't have stopped Adam Lanza's obession with "Call of Duty 4" but not much would have stopped Lanza except either his mother committing him, and/or an armed presence at that school. That's about all.
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2013-01-19, 13:16 | Link #1179 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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I'll just note that the Bill of Rights doesn't define what "rights" a citizen has. Rights are intrinsic. What it defines are the limitations on any government to infringe on those natural rights. That may *sound* subtle but it is quite different.
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2013-01-19, 13:17 | Link #1180 | |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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And let me repeat the question; if the GOP cares so much about using the military to protect the citizens from external threats, why can't the same funding dedication go through the police force? It is okay to spend money on fighting people over seas, but it isn't okay to fight criminal elements inside the country? If you NEED guns to defend yourself from criminals, you need better police period.
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