To Aru Majutsu no Index II - Episode 12 Discussion / Poll

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by kache

So in the end the use of the cross would be beneficial for the city, and it could also speed-up the development of technology...
Sad that the use of it cannot be allowed, because the control of the city would go into the Roman Church's hands.

Well nobody could tell how the cross would affect the city exactly, but yes that's one possibility.

It's a complicating explanation, Tsuchimikado even brought up this story about a man name "San Matorras".

Spoiler:

“Actually, in Christian history, the number of times this happiness was ‘switched’ is unexpectedly frequent. Like San Matorras, or as the British Puritans call him, San Martin. This guy has a very interesting story. When he went to evangelise Christianity, he once broke an ancient pagan temple, and even intended to cut a holy tree down. The non-believing farmers who didn’t want to become Christians resisted till the end, and said, “If there’s a God protecting you, go ahead and cut down this tree. If you’re really protected by God, you won’t die.””

To think that Tsuchimikado, who’s normally just messing around, is able to say this Christian fairy tale so smoothly. To his classmate Kamijou, this is truly not a familiar sight.

“Hearing this, San Martin faced the holy tree that’s falling on him, and draws a cross on his chest. Then, the unthinkable happened. The holy tree falls to the other side, and nearly crushed the farmers. The farmers were touched that there was really a miracle from God, and promptly accepted Christianity… Don’t you find this strange nya? The one who used this inexplicable force to cause this holy tree to fall towards the farmers was San Martin himself. He could have allowed that tree to fall somewhere that’s even safer. Come to think about it, he could have just cut the tree down easily nya? Why can he still receive this amount of thanks…?”

“Anyway, the result is that, the holy tree that fell the other way didn’t kill the non-believers. Because this is the mercy that God gave, every farmer rejoiced at having the chance to change their religion. No matter whether this outcome is good or bad, their history, traditions and spiritual culture were completely erased.”

Kamijou thought, so what.

This indeed can bring about happiness, but not because of ‘something that happened that brings about happiness,’ but rather ‘happiness that’s brought about no matter what happens.’

suchimikado lifts his head, and says,

“The effects of this method had gotten some recognition in psychology nya. First, satisfy a condition ‘A’ that cannot be fulfilled. When the other party begs and cry, saying that he can’t do it, force him to do the original condition ‘B’ that one wants. In this case, it’ll be easier to succeed than to offer condition ‘B’ right from the start. Just like how ‘Compared to ‘A’, ‘B’ is so much better, we’re really lucky’ nya. By manipulating the specific order, manipulating the balance between one negative effect versus another, one can reduce the relative value required for happiness.”

The way I interpret it is that "Even if bad things happen, people would not recognize it as a bad thing"

[Yui Is My Wife]

Anyone else spit out their drink laughing at Kuroko-chan's "Alright!! Mother daughter threesome combo!!" moment?

[I_am_Kami]

Originally Posted by Yui Is My Wife

Anyone else spit out their drink laughing at Kuroko-chan's "Alright!! Mother daughter threesome combo!!" moment?

it was quite the face

[Minagi Mikoto]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

I'm surprised that people don't bring this up... Or maybe the anime didn't make this clear. But the St Peter's Cross does not only protect Christians, it also protects non-christians. Yes in the end it would mostly benefit the Church, but in the mean time everyone would be happy because nothing bad would happen to them, or rather bad things would still happen, but everything would turn out good from them.

If you gamble and lose money, in the long run you'll still win money. If a bomb goes off in a building, there will be nobody injured.

I still want Kanzaki Kaori (I don't know if Accelerator will be useful, though he would probably be), turn Oriana into pieces with her Nanasen! She hurt Himegami afterall!

[Patriot's Blade]

did Kuroko just get a crush on Mikoto's mom? now thats creepy....

[Primary Consult]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Well nobody could tell how the cross would affect the city exactly, but yes that's one possibility.

It's a complicating explanation, Tsuchimikado even brought up this story about a man name "San Matorras".

Spoiler:

“Actually, in Christian history, the number of times this happiness was ‘switched’ is unexpectedly frequent. Like San Matorras, or as the British Puritans call him, San Martin. This guy has a very interesting story. When he went to evangelise Christianity, he once broke an ancient pagan temple, and even intended to cut a holy tree down. The non-believing farmers who didn’t want to become Christians resisted till the end, and said, “If there’s a God protecting you, go ahead and cut down this tree. If you’re really protected by God, you won’t die.””

To think that Tsuchimikado, who’s normally just messing around, is able to say this Christian fairy tale so smoothly. To his classmate Kamijou, this is truly not a familiar sight.

“Hearing this, San Martin faced the holy tree that’s falling on him, and draws a cross on his chest. Then, the unthinkable happened. The holy tree falls to the other side, and nearly crushed the farmers. The farmers were touched that there was really a miracle from God, and promptly accepted Christianity… Don’t you find this strange nya? The one who used this inexplicable force to cause this holy tree to fall towards the farmers was San Martin himself. He could have allowed that tree to fall somewhere that’s even safer. Come to think about it, he could have just cut the tree down easily nya? Why can he still receive this amount of thanks…?”

“Anyway, the result is that, the holy tree that fell the other way didn’t kill the non-believers. Because this is the mercy that God gave, every farmer rejoiced at having the chance to change their religion. No matter whether this outcome is good or bad, their history, traditions and spiritual culture were completely erased.”

Kamijou thought, so what.

This indeed can bring about happiness, but not because of ‘something that happened that brings about happiness,’ but rather ‘happiness that’s brought about no matter what happens.’

suchimikado lifts his head, and says,

“The effects of this method had gotten some recognition in psychology nya. First, satisfy a condition ‘A’ that cannot be fulfilled. When the other party begs and cry, saying that he can’t do it, force him to do the original condition ‘B’ that one wants. In this case, it’ll be easier to succeed than to offer condition ‘B’ right from the start. Just like how ‘Compared to ‘A’, ‘B’ is so much better, we’re really lucky’ nya. By manipulating the specific order, manipulating the balance between one negative effect versus another, one can reduce the relative value required for happiness.”

The way I interpret it is that "Even if bad things happen, people would not recognize it as a bad thing"

I wish this explanation had been in the anime, it actually makes complete sense of how:
-the cross benefits the RC Church
-everyone will be "happier"
-this is not really a good thing

The half explanations that are given don't fully paint the picture...

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Primary Consult

I wish this explanation had been in the anime, it actually makes complete sense of how:
-the cross benefits the RC Church
-everyone will be "happier"
-this is not really a good thing

The half explanations that are given don't fully paint the picture...

That's where the Anime would have to juggle the two sides- Whether to provide more detailed information, or to keep things short and simple. Even now some people seem to act like any exposition at all in Index would automatically feel long. It's as if no other anime series have ever had an exposition and this is a completely new concept for them to take in.

Anyway they simply just need to say that "The cross would cause any situation to always benefit the Church" Going that much into detail might confuse people even more.

[tsunade666]

Originally Posted by DRAGUN H.E.X.

did Kuroko just get a crush on Mikoto's mom? now thats creepy....

No she just likes everyone one who looks like her onee-sama

[Yui Is My Wife]

I can just picture her finding Mikoto's sisters.... all 10,000 of them.

"Oh, Brave New World, HERE I COME!!"

[I_am_Kami]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

That's where the Anime would have to juggle the two sides- Whether to provide more detailed information, or to keep things short and simple. Even now some people seem to act like any exposition at all in Index would automatically feel long. It's as if no other anime series have ever had an exposition and this is a completely new concept for them to take in.

Anyway they simply just need to say that "The cross would cause any situation to always benefit the Church" Going that much into detail might confuse people even more.

that will probably happen next ep

[HandofFate]

This episode was just kind of okay for me, and I enjoyed the last two episodes.
It seemed a bit more disjointed than usual.

More Mikato, seems he's been taking a lot of damage this arc.

Touima says his "I destroy your illusions" catchphrase for the 2nd time at the end of the episode this arc..hopefully he follows up on it.

[Himeji]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

I'm surprised that people don't bring this up... Or maybe the anime didn't make this clear. But the St Peter's Cross does not only protect Christians, it also protects non-christians. Yes in the end it would mostly benefit the Church, but in the mean time everyone would be happy because nothing bad would happen to them, or rather bad things would still happen, but everything would turn out good from them.

If you gamble and lose money, in the long run you'll still win money. If a bomb goes off in a building, there will be nobody injured.

Where does it say that the cross will also protect non-christians? I seriously doubt that
History tells us something else as well. As soon a Christians were starting to become a bigger power in Europe, they started bloody persecutions of any non-Christians. Crusades ringing a bell? But all the crusades weren't anything by far, there were bloody persecutions of any non-christians wherever the arm of the christian church could reach. So while Christianity flourished, all other religions and cultures were viciously eviscerated, and the church did whatever it could to wipe them from the face of the earth. They've successfully done this with followers of the Celtic gods, the Norse gods, the Germanic gods, the Roman gods and the Grekk gods - all those were either forcefully converted to Christianity or slaughtered without mercy. After Luther, they persecuted the protestants as much as they could, and then they came up with the Inquisition to easily and conveniently burn all people on the stake who they simply didn't like, even if they were Christians. The terror rule of the Christian church only started to wane with the French Revolution.

If they actually would succeed with setting up that Croce di Pietro in Academic City, history would repeat itself. While it would be very benefical for Christians (Roman Catholics, to be precise), but a disaster for any non-christians who would be recklessly persecuted and either forced to convert or slaughtered, just like back then. Given how the Roman chruch also persecuted any who weren't Roman Catholics, and how they are fighting the different Christian factions also here in the To-aru-verse, non-Roman Christians would be persecuted as well. There would be crusades again, just that they would be much more savage and devastating now with the Roman church having full access to Academic City's technology, on top of their magic. Being that powerful then, could also easily institute another Inquisition.
In short, it would bring about a second Dark Age, which would be much more cruel though due to the church being much more powerful with all that technology and magic, and it would make the first Dark Age look like a love-and-peace event by comparison

It may well be that Oriana has been deluded into thinking that she would actually do something good by the superiors of the Roman church, and that she wouldn't help them if she knew the actual outcome. Her partner (who is trying to erect the cross) rather seems to take part in the delusion of Oriana and probably knows the actual outcome.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Himeji

Where does it say that the cross will also protect non-christians? I seriously doubt that
History tells us something else as well. As soon a Christians were starting to become a bigger power in Europe, they started bloody persecutions of any non-Christians. Crusades ringing a bell? But all the crusades weren't anything by far, there were bloody persecutions of any non-christians wherever the arm of the christian church could reach. So while Christianity flourished, all other religions and cultures were viciously eviscerated, and the church did whatever it could to wipe them from the face of the earth. They've successfully done this with followers of the Celtic gods, the Norse gods, the Germanic gods, the Roman gods and the Grekk gods - all those were either forcefully converted to Christianity or slaughtered without mercy. After Luther, they persecuted the protestants as much as they could, and then they came up with the Inquisition to easily and conveniently burn all people on the stake who they simply didn't like, even if they were Christians. The terror rule of the Christian church only started to wane with the French Revolution.

If they actually would succeed with setting up that Croce di Pietro in Academic City, history would repeat itself. While it would be very benefical for Christians (Roman Catholics, to be precise), but a disaster for any non-christians who would be recklessly persecuted and either forced to convert or slaughtered, just like back then. Given how the Roman chruch also persecuted any who weren't Roman Catholics, and how they are fighting the different Christian factions also here in the To-aru-verse, non-Roman Christians would be persecuted as well. There would be crusades again, just that they would be much more savage and devastating now with the Roman church having full access to Academic City's technology, on top of their magic. Being that powerful then, could also easily institute another Inquisition.
In short, it would bring about a second Dark Age, which would be much more cruel though due to the church being much more powerful with all that technology and magic, and it would make the first Dark Age look like a love-and-peace event by comparison

Erm no as in it really does affect non-Christians as well, if anything the cross was meant for non-Christians But in this case, the situation would be that everyone would eventually be persuaded to become Christians, so the scenario where another modern Crusade would not need to occur.

Like the example that Tsuchimikado had given, even though something bad nearly had happen, people would view it as a good thing, and the connection would be made that God is protecting them. It doesn't seem like an immediate process though.

Originally Posted by Himeji

It may well be that Oriana has been deluded into thinking that she would actually do something good by the superiors of the Roman church, and that she wouldn't help them if she knew the actual outcome. Her partner (who is trying to erect the cross) rather seems to take part in the delusion of Oriana and probably knows the actual outcome.

Oriana's motives are... Well... It's actually an age old problem.

Spoiler:

She believe that there is conflict in the world because there are different factions with different motives and beliefs. Only by uniting the world will there be a stop in conflicts. It doesn't necessary have to be the Rome Catholic Church, it just so happens they have the least 'bloody' method to achieve it.

[Miraluka]

Originally Posted by Himeji

Where does it say that the cross will also protect non-christians? I seriously doubt that
History tells us something else as well. As soon a Christians were starting to become a bigger power in Europe, they started bloody persecutions of any non-Christians. Crusades ringing a bell? But all the crusades weren't anything by far, there were bloody persecutions of any non-christians wherever the arm of the christian church could reach. So while Christianity flourished, all other religions and cultures were viciously eviscerated, and the church did whatever it could to wipe them from the face of the earth. They've successfully done this with followers of the Celtic gods, the Norse gods, the Germanic gods, the Roman gods and the Grekk gods - all those were either forcefully converted to Christianity or slaughtered without mercy. After Luther, they persecuted the protestants as much as they could, and then they came up with the Inquisition to easily and conveniently burn all people on the stake who they simply didn't like, even if they were Christians. The terror rule of the Christian church only started to wane with the French Revolution.

If they actually would succeed with setting up that Croce di Pietro in Academic City, history would repeat itself. While it would be very benefical for Christians (Roman Catholics, to be precise), but a disaster for any non-christians who would be recklessly persecuted and either forced to convert or slaughtered, just like back then. Given how the Roman chruch also persecuted any who weren't Roman Catholics, and how they are fighting the different Christian factions also here in the To-aru-verse, non-Roman Christians would be persecuted as well. There would be crusades again, just that they would be much more savage and devastating now with the Roman church having full access to Academic City's technology, on top of their magic. Being that powerful then, could also easily institute another Inquisition.
In short, it would bring about a second Dark Age, which would be much more cruel though due to the church being much more powerful with all that technology and magic, and it would make the first Dark Age look like a love-and-peace event by comparison

It may well be that Oriana has been deluded into thinking that she would actually do something good by the superiors of the Roman church, and that she wouldn't help them if she knew the actual outcome. Her partner (who is trying to erect the cross) rather seems to take part in the delusion of Oriana and probably knows the actual outcome.

Sheesh... Himeji... Have you read your History books?

In short words, the religion was used as the medium within the story and when time to blame comes the religion ends as the culprit.
What about their leaders and politics?
It's obvious that those feudal lords and the traders disguised as spiritual leaders were behind it.
Didn't you guessed why the christianism was only one in the begin and later became separated into several factions later? I don't what are you trying to prove after some centuries of history .

From the novels, is not spoiler:

In Christianity, there’s only one God.
All miracles are managed by this one and only God, so no one will defy against this entity called God. Normally, everyone should be living happily together, and there shouldn’t be anyone living in misery.
However, the reality is a lot different.
It’s obvious when one looks through the history of humanity. The failure of the Crusades, the plague running rampant, the expansion of the Ottoman Empire . This isn’t just an issue about individual happiness anymore; these events have nearly caused the entire continent of Europe to be annihilated.
The Pope himself is not enough to handle all these.
Actually, for Christianity that signifies that ‘God is absolute’, for the Pope, who represents all these, to find someone to talk about this, it is a sign of misfortune.

[Jeffry2009]

God, why do I have to suffer for wait until 7 Jan 2011 to find out what's gonna happen NEXT? I mean:

- Will Touma & Stiyl managed to defeat Oriana once and for all?
- If they couldn't, will they ever see her again in the future episodes?

[Miraluka]

I almost forgot this week there won't be episode 13.... OTZ

[Hell_ping]

Originally Posted by Jeffry2009

God, why do I have to suffer for wait until 7 Jan 2011 to find out what's gonna happen NEXT? I mean:

- Will Touma & Stiyl managed to defeat Oriana once and for all?
- If they couldn't, will they ever see her again in the future episodes?

And one more question, what will happen to Lidvia? Yes, I know the answer, but I'm not telling.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Lidvia doesn't feel very prominent in this story because not only is she not doing anything, but the anime didn't explore her 'work history' and character. So she's just another minor villain boss character... Then again, it's not a very special personality either- Unique as it may be, so no great lost there.

[outerelf]

Well... I finally managed to watch the episode (siblings hanging around wanting to watch other shows and no headphones that work well)

I have to say:

Orsola, how on earth did you get the wrong number? What kind of insane number dialing method do you use to get not Stiyl, but Tsuchimikado, whose phone has an entirely different area code from the one Stiyl ought to be using?

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by outerelf

Well... I finally managed to watch the episode (siblings hanging around wanting to watch other shows and no headphones that work well)

Other... Shows...?

Originally Posted by outerelf

Orsola, how on earth did you get the wrong number? What kind of insane number dialing method do you use to get not Stiyl, but Tsuchimikado, whose phone has an entirely different area code from the one Stiyl ought to be using?

My guess is that Stiyl bought another phone for his use in Japan... Considering how often he travels over to to see Ind- I mean, for business.

...But I think yours is a better story heh so I'll stick with it.