[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 8 Twilight of the golden witch

[Smeckledorf]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Was Umineko ever Mystery to begin with?
http://witch-hunt.com/hist.html
I almost think this should somehow be included within the arcs...

If it wasn't a mystery then he trolled people on as if it were one. He has been quoted saying a solution is possible, more than once. The fact of the matter is, he had a choice with this episode. End it as a mystery or end it as a fantasy. He had the choice, he could have done either.

[CrimsonMoonMist]

Originally Posted by Smeckledorf

If it wasn't a mystery then he trolled people on as if it were one. He has been quoted saying a solution is possible, more than once. The fact of the matter is, he had a choice with this episode. End it as a mystery or end it as a fantasy. He had the choice, he could have done either.

Well, to get to the truth itself without the detective's reveal in your usual mystery novel
(as in get to THE truth, not just a personal string of theories that explains it) Is pretty dang near impossible (or I may just be really dense)
even if the clues are technically there. So for all we know, Our Confession may play the role of this story's 'detective's reveal'.

Though the only thing I can deduce from Rokkenjima's events is that
Yasu didn't kill anyone, went with Battler but drowned herself and Eva ran for Kuwadorian.
Then everything went boom. Can't really see anything else.
If I have to guess, I'd say that something like the EP7's sibling fight happened but, say, the cousins where there too,
and Eva calmed her head and did the logical thing and ran for Kuwadorian since she wouldn't have the hope of George's survival to make her stick around.
Let's say they saw no reason to kill Yasu since she didn't seem like she'd do anything anyways, so she survived too and got Battler and ran for the boat.
But there's not enough there to come to any set-in-stone chain of events.

[Sajomir]

Originally Posted by Smeckledorf

If it wasn't a mystery then he trolled people on as if it were one. He has been quoted saying a solution is possible, more than once. The fact of the matter is, he had a choice with this episode. End it as a mystery or end it as a fantasy. He had the choice, he could have done either.

The thing is, he DID give us a perfectly viable solution to the mystery. The scenario where Battler's family killed everyone involved no witches and no fantasy. We were never promised a single truth, and the ending we were given is meant to teach us that we don't need one.

[CrimsonMoonMist]

Originally Posted by Sajomir

The thing is, he DID give us a perfectly viable solution to the mystery. The scenario where Battler's family killed everyone involved no witches and no fantasy. We were never promised a single truth, and the ending we were given is meant to teach us that we don't need one.

I guess us who got into the series to begin with for the mystery have a hard time accepting that. I for one, feel perfectly satisfied with that end,
though there is still that certain wish to see that 'one truth'.
Ange didn't need it because past is past,
we mystery fans just want it because we got into it thinking we could find that ending if we searched hard enough.
Again, I'm actually fine with things as they are, but I can understand the lingering regret people may find with it.

Fantasy.. That all of our precious friends from Rokkenjima is spending their days happily waiting for Ange
inside the Catbox that will never be disturbed with ill tales of tragedy again,
from the mystery standpoint we'd just want to know how they all died once and for all.
But as I read through Umineko, I began to think this pleasant fantasy isn't all that bad either.

[ErenselTheJester]

Originally Posted by CrimsonMoonMist

Well, to get to the truth itself without the detective's reveal in your usual mystery novel
(as in get to THE truth, not just a personal string of theories that explains it) Is pretty dang near impossible (or I may just be really dense)
even if the clues are technically there. So for all we know, Our Confession may play the role of this story's 'detective's reveal'.

Though the only thing I can deduce from Rokkenjima's events is that
Yasu didn't kill anyone, went with Battler but drowned herself and Eva ran for Kuwadorian.
Then everything went boom. Can't really see anything else.
If I have to guess, I'd say that something like the EP7's sibling fight happened but, say, the cousins where there too,
and Eva calmed her head and did the logical thing and ran for Kuwadorian since she wouldn't have the hope of George's survival to make her stick around.
Let's say they saw no reason to kill Yasu since she didn't seem like she'd do anything anyways, so she survived too and got Battler and ran for the boat.
But there's not enough there to come to any set-in-stone chain of events.

I believe that the moment that Eva found the gold is the same moment the bomb went off. If EP7 is right, then there should've been a passage way for her to go to, maybe she walked in and at that moment the bomb exploded.

[Smeckledorf]

Originally Posted by Sajomir

The thing is, he DID give us a perfectly viable solution to the mystery. The scenario where Battler's family killed everyone involved no witches and no fantasy. We were never promised a single truth, and the ending we were given is meant to teach us that we don't need one.

He did give that to us twice, and it seems viable. Read some of SSVD's novels and see how close 'viable' gets you to the truth. We were never promised a truth, I cannot deny that. However, he did say it was possible to solve and how would you know if you solved it if there is no confirmation? All I wanted was the name(s). He can keep all the other secrets to himself, if he wanted, and I would still be satisfied.
Honestly, Battler's parents do seem to be the murderers, I would say they are. However, wrong or right, I still want the truth.
I will tell you what, you can read your books halfway through and imagine the ending, I want the ending, I want the solution. I don't care for Ryukishi's closed catbox, that's where our opinions will differ.

[unsuspectingvisitor]

Originally Posted by CrimsonMoonMist

Though the only thing I can deduce from Rokkenjima's events is that
Yasu didn't kill anyone, went with Battler but drowned herself and Eva ran for Kuwadorian.
Then everything went boom. Can't really see anything else.
If I have to guess, I'd say that something like the EP7's sibling fight happened but, say, the cousins where there too,
and Eva calmed her head and did the logical thing and ran for Kuwadorian since she wouldn't have the hope of George's survival to make her stick around.
Let's say they saw no reason to kill Yasu since she didn't seem like she'd do anything anyways, so she survived too and got Battler and ran for the boat.
But there's not enough there to come to any set-in-stone chain of events.

But there was someone who went there on Rokkenjima that change what supposed to happened that day. It was Battler :3
It's confirmed in EP8 that Battler was good in mystery novels and such. He was also capable of solving the epitapt as what we see in EP5. So with that information i think it's possible to deduce what happened on those two days.

Things that i think possible are:

* Battler and Eva solved the Epitapt.
* Battler thought of a plan to solve everyone's problem

..Nah .... I'll just stop this nonsense.

[AuraTwilight]

The thing is, he DID give us a perfectly viable solution to the mystery. The scenario where Battler's family killed everyone involved no witches and no fantasy. We were never promised a single truth, and the ending we were given is meant to teach us that we don't need one.

It also involved everyone acting BLATANTLY out of character, so it's probably not THE truth.

Personally, I think the culprit is either George or Battler. Everything is MOST ELEGANT with either of those two.

[Sajomir]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

It also involved everyone acting BLATANTLY out of character, so it's probably not THE truth.

Personally, I think the culprit is either George or Battler. Everything is MOST ELEGANT with either of those two.

And how do you know that any of the games we saw ever showed everyone IN character? I'd think episode 8 should have thrown that completely into question, so I'm not sure why you're surprised.

@Smeckledorf:
That's fine I actually thought I was going to feel the same way as you do once I first realized it wasn't coming. But I guess I got swept by Ange's line of thought, especially after finding there could be a happy ending without needing to know the real hard truth.

Either way, you're free to feel as you like. I don't think the author went back on his word. I really think he was commending the readers on several theories simply by mentioning them one by one. (Eva culprit, Battler's family culprit, even mentioned a George + family culprit) By the fact that he admitted in the writing that these were all possible and none could be denied, he acknowledged each as a solution.

[AuraTwilight]

And how do you know that any of the games we saw ever showed everyone IN character? I'd think episode 8 should have thrown that completely into question, so I'm not sure why you're surprised.

If we're going to go that route, than Umineko was never solvable because we were never given clues, because none of the information we got was reliable in any way and was most likely wrong.

Oops.

[ErenselTheJester]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

If we're going to go that route, than Umineko was never solvable because we were never given clues, because none of the information we got was reliable in any way and was most likely wrong.

Oops.

Actually, its quite the opposite. The assumption that the characters we saw in all the episodes weren't complete interpretations of themselves brings the point of view that in R- Prime the family was alot more fun and loving than the stories let on. Not that the information wasn't reliable, it wasn't complete.

[AuraTwilight]

There's a difference between elaborating on a characterization and there's CONTRADICTING it, though.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by CrimsonMoonMist

Though the only thing I can deduce from Rokkenjima's events is that
Yasu didn't kill anyone, went with Battler but drowned herself and Eva ran for Kuwadorian.
Then everything went boom. Can't really see anything else.

I think that Battler just imagined Beatrice being with him, that whole scene is way too strange to think there isn't some "magical stuff" involved. In the first place normally a person wouldn't be so euphoric after his whole family was massacred.

Anyway if you think there was no lie, you might want to revise the order of events. That scene starts with a panel saying "the third day" and when Battler goes out it's daylight. Since the explosion happened at midnight, then everything that was shown happened at least six hours after explosion.

[James Lame]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I think that Battler just imagined Beatrice being with him, that whole scene is way too strange to think there isn't some "magical stuff" involved. In the first place normally a person wouldn't be so euphoric after his whole family was massacred.

That is a valid point, but i guess if Battler was the culprit it could possibly fly. Then again, the conversation they had on the dingy still makes the whole thing a bit whacky.

[AuraTwilight]

Not to mention "I have committed countless sins across countless worlds." Who the hell kills themselves over writing snuff fiction?

[James Lame]

Someone that's mentally unstable.

[AuraTwilight]

Yasu isn't THAT crazy, come on now. XD

[James Lame]

Haha, ...but honestly I wouldn't put it past yasu.

[zibbazabba905]

I think its perfectly viable that any of the four familys could have done it, or done by an accident, but they never show exactly which family does it... The "clue" I think stands out is how the fans/goats wanted a tragedy, but the One Truth was kept hidden because it wasn't interesting enough

[ErenselTheJester]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

There's a difference between elaborating on a characterization and there's CONTRADICTING it, though.

Where's the contradiction? Parents can be one way in front of their children and another way around somebody else. I mean, Battler did have a point when he asked Ange if their parents would ever act like that in front of them.