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Masquerading Lunatic · 2013-03-16, 11:19

I'm a little confused. It looks like Mio and Haruka are back from Ep.23's screencaps, but shouldn't they still be missing like how Mio was last arc? Mio looks so cute smiling, though, but still. I highly doubt they'd explain it in the actual episode, too, so it's definitely strange. I thought I knew what JC Staff was doing, but now I'm not too sure.

I also just finished Refrain yesterday at last! Now I'm just wondering what happened to Rin when she was young to traumatize her so. Clearly, the whole Rin 2 ending is similar to what originally happened, but I can't really imagine what she had to go through as a kid that ruined her social life, effectively.

Dr. Casey · 2013-03-17, 13:14

Refrain is the final story arc, right? So does that mean it's never explained why Rin became so shy and avoidant? Well, that's disappointing.

Mazyrian · 2013-03-17, 13:16

My take is that she was always shy, and that the traumatic event that was triggered at then end of Rin2 was actually when Masato/Kengo covered her saving her from the accident.

Randrak42 · 2013-03-17, 13:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mazyrian

My take is that she was always shy, and that the traumatic event that was triggered at then end of Rin2 was actually when Masato/Kengo covered her saving her from the accident.

That...doesn't really make sense.

Leo_Otaku · 2013-03-17, 14:16

I always thought Rin was just shy and was never good at socializing or making friends. I don't know if it was an event or if it was just her personality in her upbringing. If it was from a previous event I too wish they expanded on it.

Randrak42 · 2013-03-17, 16:30

There was never a traumatizing event in Rin past, it was a lie from Kengo, Masato and Kyousuke during Refrain to explain to Riki why Rin was in such a state to begin with.
In refrain Rin still remembered the events at the ending of Rin2 but not clearly, the loop should have wiped her memories but the event traumatized her so much that the loop didn't manage to erase it completely for her, but it did erase Riki's memories of it. So to explain to him why she was in that state they simply told him the traumatizing event she remembered happened when she was a kid.

Masquerading Lunatic · 2013-03-17, 17:03

Hmm, alright. I just thought it was mentioned a few times in Refrain later on, vaguely, but I've only read it once (and quickly at that). Time to reread it! Speaking of which, was it ever outwardly stated that Koshiki's dead in the real world, because if it did, I missed it. I wish she had a little more involvement when it came to Kengo's episode asides from the "don't invade my privacy" bit with Kyousuke.

Randrak42 · 2013-03-17, 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masquerading Lunatic

Hmm, alright. I just thought it was mentioned a few times in Refrain later on, vaguely, but I've only read it once (and quickly at that). Time to reread it! Speaking of which, was it ever outwardly stated that Koshiki's dead in the real world, because if it did, I missed it. I wish she had a little more involvement when it came to Kengo's episode asides from the "don't invade my privacy" bit with Kyousuke.

It was never outright said "She's dead for realz" but there are many things implying to such...specially the fact that her suicide happened before the buss crash (meaning it can't be changed) and the effect her sudden appearance had on Kengo during Rin2.

It's one of those things where it's only assumed...but everyone pretty much knows it to be true.

novalysis · 2013-03-17, 21:17

It just occurred to me that Clannad might have inspired Little Busters, which in turn inspired Angel Beats.

Spoiler for Comparisons between all three Madea Works:

Leo_Otaku · 2013-03-17, 23:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masquerading Lunatic

Hmm, alright. I just thought it was mentioned a few times in Refrain later on, vaguely, but I've only read it once (and quickly at that). Time to reread it! Speaking of which, was it ever outwardly stated that Koshiki's dead in the real world, because if it did, I missed it. I wish she had a little more involvement when it came to Kengo's episode asides from the "don't invade my privacy" bit with Kyousuke.

On this page here http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...=48522&page=60 Kudryavka and I talked a bit about Koishiki Miyuki. God I wish she got a bigger part. I really really liked her character and was interested in her and her back story a bit more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by novalysis

It just occurred to me that Clannad might have inspired Little Busters, which in turn inspired Angel Beats.

Spoiler for Comparisons between all three Madea Works:

Great comparissons. I too have noticed that almost all KEY works have some kind of other world and/or ties in with dreams. This even is like ONE from pre-KEY as well. I believe this stems from the influence of Maeda reading "Hard-Boiled Wonderland and the End of the World". Which is a good read btw.

Zankoku12 · 2013-03-18, 04:09

ONE is like the mother of all Key works with dream,other world,sad snow,lack of parent,childhood,forgotten memories etc...It's thanks to ONE success that Key came to existence so this is quiet literally as well.

It's also interesting each Key game so far represent a season but LB! isn't one of them.
Clannad: Spring
Air: Summer
Rewrite : Fall
Kanon: Winter

Mazyrian · 2013-03-18, 08:59

Air and Kanon have an obvious season theme, but for Clannad and Rewrite is a little far fetched. Clannad does start in spring, but it usually goes past it, and doesn't really have any spring symbolism, and the only fall-like thing in Rewrite is the festival (which is not that important).

Spoiler for comparisons:

Zankoku12 · 2013-03-18, 10:02

Well,Key put the season theme like that themself and it's not like I make it up...

Hollownerox · 2013-03-19, 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randrak42

There was never a traumatizing event in Rin past, it was a lie from Kengo, Masato and Kyousuke during Refrain to explain to Riki why Rin was in such a state to begin with.
In refrain Rin still remembered the events at the ending of Rin2 but not clearly, the loop should have wiped her memories but the event traumatized her so much that the loop didn't manage to erase it completely for her, but it did erase Riki's memories of it. So to explain to him why she was in that state they simply told him the traumatizing event she remembered happened when she was a kid.

From what I remember from playing the VN there actually was a traumatizing event in her childhood. I remember during Kyousuke's episode he was thinking to himself about how far he was going, and said he recreated the event that traumatized Rin in order to make her stronger more quickly, but it backfired on him.

Randrak42 · 2013-03-19, 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hollownerox

From what I remember from playing the VN there actually was a traumatizing event in her childhood. I remember during Kyousuke's episode he was thinking to himself about how far he was going, and said he recreated the event that traumatized Rin in order to make her stronger more quickly, but it backfired on him.

I don't remember that...but it's possible. Got a screencap?

Hollownerox · 2013-03-20, 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randrak42

I don't remember that...but it's possible. Got a screencap?

After searching for the scene on Youtube (Would've went to the game itself but I had to move the saves somewhere else) the most I could find was this.

Spoiler for Screenshot:

This scene was when Kyousuke was explaining how he was willing to do anything to make Rin and Riki stronger. Considering the context and the wording, the full sentence being "Drove Rin into a corner, made her dig up her personal trauma, and drove her to despair", it does seem like a childhood trauma is being implied. Granted it has been a while since I last played so I might be mistaken.

Randrak42 · 2013-03-20, 15:36

Huh, how about that...well it could also be referring to the fact that she's was an extreme introvert since a young age.

trinitem · 2013-03-20, 18:12

With regards to the setting and context, I would say he was just referring to events from Rin 2. Can't recall any other scenes that hinted much about traumas from before the dream world events.

Had fun taking some liberties in this playthrough

.

Images

Riki in control

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Now a few questions (apologies if redundant, but I did take a look through past pages):

Which installments are generally considered canon?
Little Busters!
Ex
Kud Wafter
Perfect Edition Drama CD

How did Kyousuke ask Riki "It's enough, isn't it?"? Wouldn't he have been long dead by that point if Riki had opted to immediately run?

Since Lennon = Kyousuke, was Kyousuke being a Loli-Loli Hunter each time Lennon slid onto Rin's face?

Hollownerox · 2013-03-20, 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randrak42

Huh, how about that...well it could also be referring to the fact that she's was an extreme introvert since a young age.

Yeah, they never really did explain why Rin was so anti-social, normally everyone would just assume that she was just cripplingly shy. However, since pretty much every heroine in Little Busters had some sort of traumatic background story it makes it easy to think that Rin had one too. But since there is a depressingly small amount of evidence for that theory, it may be best just to assume the crippling shyness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trinitem

Which installments are generally considered canon?

Little Busters! is definitely canon, considering its the original and all. As for EX, Saya and Kanata are most likely canon, however Sasami's route is debatable (And by that I mean literally, there have been flame wars over it) since it occurs after Refrain. I have no idea about Kud Wafter, since it is the same style as Tomoyo After, it might be more of What If? type of thing. And the Drama CD (which I'm assuming is the one where they go to the beach) is canon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trinitem

How did Kyousuke ask Riki "It's enough, isn't it?"? Wouldn't he have been long dead by that point if Riki had opted to immediately run?

While this may just simply be one of the supernatural elements Key does, my theory is that maybe Kyousuke inserted a part of himself into Riki (In hindsight this sentence is a bit awkward) to act kind as a conscience, much like how Lennon was a part of himself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trinitem

Since Lennon = Kyousuke, was Kyousuke being a Loli-Loli Hunter each time Lennon slid onto Rin's face?

Considering Kyousuke's conversation with Mio about the whole "Onii-san" thing, I wouldn't put it past him if he was a Siscon in addition to being a Lolicon.

Chr0nicz420 · 2013-03-29, 09:43

I have a question about Sasami's route.

Spoiler for Sasasasasegawa:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hollownerox

however Sasami's route is debatable (And by that I mean literally, there have been flame wars over it) since it occurs after Refrain.

Since Sasami's route takes place after Refrain, most likely that's treated as a sequel of LB but only a single route. Therefore her route is also canon.

But that also means SasamiXRiki is canon?

2013-03-17, 13:16	Link #1223
Mazyrian Member Join Date: May 2012	My take is that she was always shy, and that the traumatic event that was triggered at then end of Rin2 was actually when Masato/Kengo covered her saving her from the accident. __________________ http://7nightstranslations.wordpress.com/ - VN reviews and stuff

2013-03-17, 21:17	Link #1229
novalysis Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2011	It just occurred to me that Clannad might have inspired Little Busters, which in turn inspired Angel Beats. Spoiler for Comparisons between all three Madea Works: All three works deal with death, and shared artificial worlds. In Clannad, Ushio, the daughter of Tomoya and Nagisa resides in the "Imaginary World". Arguably, the Imaginary World represents the dying dream of a single family. (If indeed, my interpretation is correct). Furthermore, it's implied that each route is a part of the same phenomena of the Imaginary world. Clannad reflects the regret of a family, of a single protagonist. Little Busters takes the same concept, and instead expands it into the shared dying dream of a group of classmates and friends. Again, each route is just one iteration of the Dream World. In other words, Little Busters takes the same concept as the Clannad world, but now expands it into the common creation of all the Little Busters. Little Busters reflects the regrets of not just the protagonist, but every participant who created the dream. Finally, Angel Beats brings this idea to it's logical conclusion, where an Afterlife "Dream World" gathers people from all across what is likely various times and possibly even universes, into a "School setting" that attempts to resolve regret. But rather than being an exclusive dream world, Angel Beats is Universalistic, taking in people with utterly no relations to one another, other than the regrets that binds them all. Angel Beats isn't just the Dream World of a single protagonist, or a group of friends. It is a dream world that is, with no clear source, gathering complete strangers together into a common dream. In Angel Beats, even a Suginiami (Riki's hopeless suitor) type character has the ability to come to the fore. Furthermore, while the mechanics of the dream is utterly unknown in Clannad except to Ushio (perhaps), the mechanics of the Little Busters world is, while hidden, both knowable, and the participants have manipulated the dream far more obviously than in Clannad. In Angel Beats, the mechanics are even less hidden. It is transparent, the surrealism of the world is more obvious. Furthermore, it is usable, and we can see the protagonist clearly knowingly exploiting the mechanics. The hierarchy goes like this: Clannad: The Dream of Family Little Busters: The Dream of Friends Angel Beats: The Dream of Strangers. Clannad: Very hidden mechanics. (The Illusion cannot be known) Little Busters: Mechanics kept secret. (The Illusion is knowable) Angel Beats: Mechanics more blatant and easily known. (The Illusion is obvious)

2013-03-18, 08:59	Link #1232
Mazyrian Member Join Date: May 2012	Air and Kanon have an obvious season theme, but for Clannad and Rewrite is a little far fetched. Clannad does start in spring, but it usually goes past it, and doesn't really have any spring symbolism, and the only fall-like thing in Rewrite is the festival (which is not that important). Spoiler for comparisons: Having playing Little Busters!, its influences on Angel Beats are obvious, but when I saw the latter the thing that came to mind was Haibane Renmei. Which may be convergent evolution; Haibane Renmei also drew inspiration from Hard Boiled Wonderland and the End of the World. __________________ http://7nightstranslations.wordpress.com/ - VN reviews and stuff

2013-03-16, 11:19	Link #1221
Masquerading Lunatic Moe Lunatic Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: The Americas	I'm a little confused. It looks like Mio and Haruka are back from Ep.23's screencaps, but shouldn't they still be missing like how Mio was last arc? Mio looks so cute smiling, though, but still. I highly doubt they'd explain it in the actual episode, too, so it's definitely strange. I thought I knew what JC Staff was doing, but now I'm not too sure. I also just finished Refrain yesterday at last! Now I'm just wondering what happened to Rin when she was young to traumatize her so. Clearly, the whole Rin 2 ending is similar to what originally happened, but I can't really imagine what she had to go through as a kid that ruined her social life, effectively.

2013-03-17, 13:14	Link #1222
Dr. Casey Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Tennessee Age: 36	Refrain is the final story arc, right? So does that mean it's never explained why Rin became so shy and avoidant? Well, that's disappointing.

2013-03-17, 14:16	Link #1225
Leo_Otaku Rewrite of the Life Join Date: May 2003 Location: Canada Age: 37	I always thought Rin was just shy and was never good at socializing or making friends. I don't know if it was an event or if it was just her personality in her upbringing. If it was from a previous event I too wish they expanded on it.

2013-03-17, 16:30	Link #1226
Randrak42 ANEGO Worshiper Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: By the vending machine, drinking tea.	There was never a traumatizing event in Rin past, it was a lie from Kengo, Masato and Kyousuke during Refrain to explain to Riki why Rin was in such a state to begin with. In refrain Rin still remembered the events at the ending of Rin2 but not clearly, the loop should have wiped her memories but the event traumatized her so much that the loop didn't manage to erase it completely for her, but it did erase Riki's memories of it. So to explain to him why she was in that state they simply told him the traumatizing event she remembered happened when she was a kid.

2013-03-17, 17:03	Link #1227
Masquerading Lunatic Moe Lunatic Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: The Americas	Hmm, alright. I just thought it was mentioned a few times in Refrain later on, vaguely, but I've only read it once (and quickly at that). Time to reread it! Speaking of which, was it ever outwardly stated that Koshiki's dead in the real world, because if it did, I missed it. I wish she had a little more involvement when it came to Kengo's episode asides from the "don't invade my privacy" bit with Kyousuke.

2013-03-18, 04:09	Link #1231
Zankoku12 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2009	ONE is like the mother of all Key works with dream,other world,sad snow,lack of parent,childhood,forgotten memories etc...It's thanks to ONE success that Key came to existence so this is quiet literally as well. It's also interesting each Key game so far represent a season but LB! isn't one of them. Clannad: Spring Air: Summer Rewrite : Fall Kanon: Winter

2013-03-18, 10:02	Link #1233
Zankoku12 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2009	Well,Key put the season theme like that themself and it's not like I make it up...

2013-03-20, 15:36	Link #1237
Randrak42 ANEGO Worshiper Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: By the vending machine, drinking tea.	Huh, how about that...well it could also be referring to the fact that she's was an extreme introvert since a young age.

2013-03-20, 18:12	Link #1238
trinitem Dedicated Lurker Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: You Guess Age: 30	With regards to the setting and context, I would say he was just referring to events from Rin 2. Can't recall any other scenes that hinted much about traumas from before the dream world events. Had fun taking some liberties in this playthrough . Images Riki in control Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload? Now a few questions (apologies if redundant, but I did take a look through past pages): Which installments are generally considered canon? Little Busters! Ex Kud Wafter Perfect Edition Drama CD How did Kyousuke ask Riki "It's enough, isn't it?"? Wouldn't he have been long dead by that point if Riki had opted to immediately run? Since Lennon = Kyousuke, was Kyousuke being a Loli-Loli Hunter each time Lennon slid onto Rin's face?