2011-03-20, 12:00 | Link #242 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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That's what pisses me off. If it wasn't important why he made the readers think about that for four long years?
He made use speculate about the mystery, he enforced us to do so over and over, he even used Featherine as a way to berate those who don't try to reason. Whodunnit, howdunnit, whydunnit. These concepts were repeated ad nauseam! And he never planned to reveal them in the end, or rather he wanted us to think about those and speculate about those until our head would blow just to tell us in the end that "it isn't that important". Ah, yes it was his "grand plan", but I don't really feel like thanking him for toying with me and wasting my time. It would have been better if Umineko was openly stated to be some artistic work or pure entertaining instead of a "game". I just can't believe that Malkuth was right all along, there was the whole forum against him and now people are just saying what he was saying one and a half year ago. Did you completely forget him? http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...ch#post2703378 http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...=89677&page=17 Here, please read, it's tragically funny how prophetic was what he wrote, and how funny how he was the first to mention David Lynch when no one didn't even consider the chance that Umineko would follow that style and now everyone is doing the same. And how pathetic the people that tried to defend the series (me included) look now.
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2011-03-20, 12:44 | Link #244 | |
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Join Date: Dec 2010
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I'm honestly finding that hilarious. |
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2011-03-20, 13:00 | Link #245 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
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Renall called the amnesia bit, but i don't think the reaction was very vehement.
Wow, that Malkuth buy called EVERYTHING. And the responses of that 1983 guy are truly precious, in hindsight. Thanks for that, Jan-Poo. Last edited by Chron; 2011-03-20 at 13:20. |
2011-03-20, 14:14 | Link #246 |
Slashy Slashy!
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: USA
Age: 34
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The culprit really is not important. By not revealing it, Ryukishi says "Blaming someone was not the point of my work, and I don't want anyone to think that it ever was." He wrote a story about compassion and tolerance, not assigning blame. That's what the story has been about since EP4 onward. Sometimes it is better to leave the truth unknown.
And really, sometimes in real life, there is no way to find the truth. There is such a thing as a perfect crime, which no detective (no matter how brilliant) could solve. That's the break between mystery novels and reality, and why, in the end, mystery novels aren't any more true to life than fantasy novels. Real life detectives have to try to solve crimes without any guarantee that their crimes are even solvable. But they still do it, they don't give up because it might be impossible. Take the solution away from an Ellery Queen novel, and what are you left with? Why, nothing much. A short novel with mostly uninteresting characters, who have a habit of dying in unusual ways. It doesn't say anything about life, or the human condition. Now take the solution away from Umineko (or rather, leave it as it is), and what do you have? Quite a lot! We have wonderful characters who we've seen grow and develop. We have a few very good themes. We have some interesting insights into the mystery and fantasy genres. In short, even without a solution, Umineko still works, it still has something (in my opinion, it is even more powerful without a solution). This, mes amis, is why Umineko is art. I think if your main concern is about finding the "true culprit", then you've missed the point of Umineko rather badly. But what do I know, I'm just a silly armchair philosopher. |
2011-03-20, 14:15 | Link #247 | |||
The True Culprit
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2011-03-20, 14:34 | Link #248 | |||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Unfortunately unless you can prove that this has always be your idea I can't shake the feeling that you're just defending this position because that's what Ryuukishi did. I had a hell of a hard time just trying to make people accept that Rokkenjima was affected by a large scale disaster, because "it wouldn't be a mystery if there wasn't a clear crime scene" and now people show up saying that finding the culprit has never been important. Give me a break... Quote:
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2011-03-20, 14:43 | Link #249 | |
Slashy Slashy!
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: USA
Age: 34
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But just because I haven't been right all along doesn't mean my opinion doesn't hold water. I'm not trying to say "Look how superior I am! I've been right this whole time, and you've all been on a wild goose chase!" That's not the case at all, I've done my fair share of goose hunting. What I'm asking you to do is to step back and maybe see that maybe the culprit is not what is the most important thing to take from Umineko. Maybe it is instead the lessons about love, and tolerance, and forgiveness? Maybe the goose chase was just an excuse to show us something far more beautiful than any old goose could be? And now I am getting sappy, hmph. |
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2011-03-20, 14:48 | Link #250 | |
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Join Date: Jun 2010
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Overall, I'd say Ryukishi was trying to make a "whydunnit". We didn't know what happened. We didn't have any alibis for anyone. All we have is the motives, characters and situations of everyone on the island that day. As such... you can only work out who the killer is if you understand their heart.
Whether or not you think this was successful is up to you. Quote:
In the 3rd episode onwards, it's written by amnesiac Battler. As far as I know he's going based on scraps of what he remembers and the stories by Beatrice. Therefore, once again... he'll focus on the people who matter. |
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2011-03-20, 14:57 | Link #251 | |||
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Sure he might have made some people care about it, but let's be frank. He has certain types of fans(not saying you are one of them) who will blindly follow what he says. "Forgive mass murderers because hey we all make mistakes! Forgive your raping father that raped your mother that was his daughter, because hey we all make mistakes! Forgive me for being a bad writer! It's perfectly fine to use escapism to love three different people at once while tricking them!" To me, this quote from the Kayne west article describes Umineko's approach to most themes very appropriately. Quote:
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2011-03-20, 15:11 | Link #252 |
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Join Date: Jun 2010
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...If you actually were in Ange's position, I don't think it'd be an entirely bad thing to put it to the back of your mind and move on with your life. It doesn't mean you've forgiven the criminal or Kinzo... you're just using "magic" so that your life isn't destroyed even more than it needs to be.
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2011-03-20, 15:16 | Link #254 | ||
Slashy Slashy!
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: USA
Age: 34
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That, in my opinion, is far better, and far more beautiful than having Lion kill Kinzo for his crimes, or portraying Beatrice exclusively as a killer, rather than as a victim herself. |
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2011-03-20, 15:20 | Link #255 | |
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Join Date: Jan 2011
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He lead us on a several year wild goose chase for the sake of making his ham-handed point about truth (which is stupid in this medium, and insulting in how he went about it), and that's the truth of the matter. He knows what his audience is, its common knowledge that he pays attention to his fanbase, so there really can't be any way to explain his intent other than that. Ryuukishi thinks he's better than the mystery genre, than his readers, than the need for proofreading. What else is that other than hubris? Especially since he's mistaken on all there counts. You're arguing that ryuukishi's a genius. I'm saying he's just mediocre, so tell me something: Where's the genius in Umineko? I don't see it. I see no reason to be impressed with what ryuukishi has done here. |
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2011-03-20, 15:25 | Link #256 | ||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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I did not if there's one that has the right to say those words it's me, and it ticks me off that now people make such kind of claims after the facts. But you recognize that you've been looking for a culprit in the beginning, and you know that everyone did the same. So you should choose your words differently else it looks like you are claiming that practically everyone missed the point completely. Now you changed your mind? Why you say it only now? Give me something to shake this feeling that you just changed your mind because "God" has spoken. Quote:
How can I forgive someone without even knowing who is the sinner and what's the sin? Ah! I'm ready to forgive anyone anytime, as long as they show their face and they show regret for their actions and the will to take responsibility. I see nothing of that. Talking about forgiveness at these conditions is unacceptable.
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2011-03-20, 15:42 | Link #257 | |
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Ordeal by Innocence (Christie) probably showed your point better.
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2011-03-20, 15:42 | Link #258 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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He clearly like to come up with deep themes for his stories, and that's not the worst thing in the world. It's just the vector he chose to deliver Umineko's message is a weird way to do it.
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2011-03-20, 15:43 | Link #259 | |||
Slashy Slashy!
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: USA
Age: 34
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Later on, you are supposed to realize that there is no evil witch to combat, just a sad, mentally deranged girl, and that cruelly seeking the truth regardless of its consequences is actually not a good thing. So if you're still trying to find the culprit, then you have missed the point of Umineko entirely. It's not about blaming someone, it's about understanding someone. Quote:
You insinuate that I am a mindless Ryukishi-fan who would worship Umineko regardless of its actual content? I say that I would not; there were many things about Umineko which I did not like (the beginning of EP2, the magic battles in EP3, the love trial in EP6). But if you demand proof that I actually have a brain, well... I cannot prove that to you, I'm sorry. Feel free to ignore me if you find my opinions so worthless. Quote:
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2011-03-20, 15:47 | Link #260 | |||||
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And if anyone "thinks that it ever was" important, it's because Ryukishi himself MADE IT IMPORTANT. People did not pluck this idea idiotically out of thin air. It's important because he created the impression that an injustice may have been done. It is evil to say "eh, but if it was, it doesn't matter to Ange so it doesn't matter to anyone." Gohda's Mom Problem. Stop giving a bad resolution a pass because you don't care. Quote:
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"Well some things are unknowable!" Okay, then evil won in Umineko. Evil. Won. And nobody cares because Beatrice and Battler were too selfish, because Eva was too selfish, because Ange was too selfish. Because no one actually cares about anyone but themselves. You ever notice how selfish and possessive so much of the "love" in Umineko is? Hell, Yasu's love for Battler seems almost hopelessly selfish. The only person who loved unconditionally was Maria and we all see where that got her. So yeah, I can't condemn the culprit, but I guess I can condemn all the protagonists. They're terrible, terrible people. They are indirect agents of the culprit (presuming, again, there was one, and if there wasn't that should be known) and they ensured his or her victory. There's your precious "moral." Money and greed blind a person to the truth. Love blinds people just as hard. That may not be what he's saying directly, but that's what the text actually shows: Love and truth are in direct opposition in Ryukishi's mind. What a deplorable state of affairs.
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