Nanoha Franchise General Discussion Thread

[Justin_Brett]

I agree that he's the main character. My point was that he hasn't gotten to develop much as one, primarily because of the Aces still being in the story when theirs has concluded.

[Keroko]

Define 'develop.'

[Justin_Brett]

Progression from how he was at the beginning of the story to something noticeably different.

[Rising Dragon]

That fits Nanoha too, and yet I don't see anyone complaining about her lack of development in any season she appears in...

[Archon_Wing]

People have complained about Nanoha stagnating in the first two seasons, especially from non-fans. At the very least, you will notice people saying that the first two seasons are about someone other than Nanoha.

However StrikerS Nanoha is noticeably different, especially towards the tail end of StrikerS, and has developed as a person, not just in abilities or looks either. I think for all of that season's faults, it was helpful towards Nanoha has a character very much so.

[Justin_Brett]

She got some in StrikerS, though, even if it was...pretty much entirely off-screen.

People keep posting while I'm in the reply window.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

She got some in StrikerS, though, even if it was...pretty much entirely off-screen.

Well, it's true that it was often offscreen, but it was still shown well enough to make an impact, such as the incident that showed that Nanoha was still very mortal, and that all this energy use is gonna have a negative impact on her life.

The most overt thing is that Nanoha went from someone who just wanted to help people to someone who can give that help on a more focused basis, as in seeking more concrete goals as opposed to just befriending whoever comes across. Examples include being an instructor, but most certainly her raising a child. Even though I don't like Vivio at all, that plot device did help a lot.

People keep posting while I'm in the reply window.

And that's why you hit quote!

Or type faster.

[Keroko]

So Nanoha only got decent development by the third season of her own show... But even putting that aside, given that the plot of Force has barely started, to call foul on character growth something which usually doesn't happen until halfway a series at its earliest is rather premature a complaint, wouldn't you say?

[Reckoner]

Nanoha's character is incredibly simplistic and is devoid of any depth whatsoever. I see practically no difference in her between episode 1 of season 1 and pretty much throughout all of strikers (A little side development, but really it was barely anything).

Not that she's a bad character, but she basically amounts to a superman type character while I much prefer ones like Batman.

[Justin_Brett]

Halfway at its earliest? I don't think I watch the same things as you.

And yeah, he has a lot of potential for character development. But they seem to be taking a while to do anything with it, is the thing.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Keroko

So Nanoha only got decent development by the third season of her own show... But even putting that aside, given that the plot of Force has barely started, to call foul on character growth something which usually doesn't happen until halfway a series at its earliest is rather premature a complaint, wouldn't you say?

I have to disagree with you, Keroko.

Just because they took the time with their first main lead, doesn't mean it's okay to do it with the new guy especially considering Nanoha's character did have notable issues, despite the attempts at development

You have to note that Nanoha had the disadvantage of having to start from scratch. Not only had they had to spend time developing her, but they also had to set up everything (the world, concepts, and such).

There's inevitably going to be a higher expectation on a character that has all this foundation set up. So while we should have been patient with this franchise in 2005-- in 2012, it's only reasonable that the pace picks up. The new guys have to prove themselves to be interesting faster or they get overshadowed. Subaru and Teana had to work hard given what they had, for example, and what happened in the end is pretty subjective, but eh, it was problematic I would say.

[Rising Dragon]

Pretty much every entry into the Nanoha series has had to do world-building and set-up so I'm not sure that really counts.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Pretty much every entry into the Nanoha series has had to do world-building and set-up so I'm not sure that really counts.

I think Archon's ponit has to do with the fact that while it's true each season adds to new bits of world building and such they haven't the same disadvatnage as Season One. StrikerS draw much attention from the popularity achieved by A's and next seasons followed suit. It's a bless and a curse a the same time. With less work on world building there's more space to character developement but at the same time the new characters have to live up to expectations raised by past seasons and characters which lead to the subjective results Archon was talking about.

Force is very controversial in the sense that there are people able to enjoy it just fine and some other that even think is actually good while, on the other side, there are fans that find a fair share of exploitable flaws while some other got to the extreme of leaving the franchise in dissapointment. ViVid started more or less the same way but has fared better or at least i see much less critiscism and hate towards it.

[rxrx]

Vivid is interesting in its own way, but people like it more as it is focused on little girls smashing each other up and get involved in relationships. Nobody cares about Force as the main lead is male and they would complain on only the flaws and enlarged it while ignoring the good. Not saying that Force's writing is good, but some just decide to only point out the bad in it. If you really want to argue, Vivid is not that good too as it is just a moe slugfest.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by rxrx

Vivid is interesting in its own way, but people like it more as it is focused on little girls smashing each other up and get involved in relationships. Nobody cares about Force as the main lead is male and they would complain on only the flaws and enlarged it while ignoring the good. Not saying that Force's writing is good, but some just decide to only point out the bad in it. If you really want to argue, Vivid is not that good too as it is just a moe slugfest.

Exactly, like i've said both mangas are controversal on their own way but for some reason i find that ViVid's detractors are a bit less agressive than Force's ones xD.

[rxrx]

Cause Vivid have cute girls as lead while Force's ladies are either taken, out of touch or might be involved with Touma? xD

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Pretty much every entry into the Nanoha series has had to do world-building and set-up so I'm not sure that really counts.

MM, while that is technically true, that is just an innate disadvantage of sequels or spinoffs. It has to do with the degree. The first seasons had to do more heavy lifting because there wasn't anything you could refer back to, without making it back up. While as if a later series starts referencing continuity it's much easier to understand and appreciate the backdrop.

My point is that every successive series should not go back to square one. They should build upon each other.

The earlier series also had the advantage of having less characters. Nanoha might not have been the most exciting character around, but she had charisma and that personality that is in love with excessive violence that was sufficient as a hook. But as the cast grew larger, the amount of creativity to make a new character stands out is greater, due to the screentime being split every each way. You gotta show why we should care about you, or else.

A good example of showcasing a new lead to truly grab center stage in a franchise was Kamille Bidan from Zeta Gundam. He succeeded because he was a stark contrast to the former hero of Amuro Ray, which also reflected a change in tone to the series to a darker one. The anime also pretty much defined his character and the situation around him within a few episodes. It was quick, but still allowed it tons of time for development. His personality was also one that stood out.

Now, clearly not that is not the only way, and I'm not saying Nanoha should be going Zeta "lol Tomino" on us. But the advantages of having a lead that has punch to them can help many of us allow a show some more patience. These things are earned, not taken for granted. Nanoha herself had a punch that defined herself, and maybe some people are looking for this.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

Halfway at its earliest? I don't think I watch the same things as you.

And yeah, he has a lot of potential for character development. But they seem to be taking a while to do anything with it, is the thing.

Now correct me if I'm interpreting your words wrong, but does that mean you consider change that happens as character establishment (like Nanoha changing from a normal girl to a magical girl in the first few episodes) development? Because in that case, Thoma's got plenty.

He went from a regular boy who knows a little magic to a boy who became an eclipse infected, we learned that he has a rather troubled past which he still carries with him (flashbacks are development too, after all) following which his infection took hold and he learned what it was like to hold great power without control, which gave him the drive to master his powers so he would never harm those close to him again.

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

There's inevitably going to be a higher expectation on a character that has all this foundation set up. So while we should have been patient with this franchise in 2005-- in 2012, it's only reasonable that the pace picks up. The new guys have to prove themselves to be interesting faster or they get overshadowed. Subaru and Teana had to work hard given what they had, for example, and what happened in the end is pretty subjective, but eh, it was problematic I would say.

I know, it's all subjective, but it still feels unfair critisism though. Nanoha didn't develop in A's either but nobody bat an eyelash. Teana and Subaru had to work for their place, but they actually had the chance to do so. StrikerS is over and they got their development. Thoma's getting hammered before he's even given a chance to finish. He (and most of the cast in Force, really) is being treated like a character who's series is already finished.

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Exactly, like i've said both mangas are controversal on their own way but for some reason i find that ViVid's detractors are a bit less agressive than Force's ones xD.

Methinks that most of the Vivid detractors have taken to the "enjoying it despite the flaws" aproach.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Keroko

I know, it's all subjective, but it still feels unfair critisism though. Nanoha didn't develop in A's either but nobody bat an eyelash. Teana and Subaru had to work for their place, but they actually had the chance to do so. StrikerS is over and they got their development. Thoma's getting hammered before he's even given a chance to finish. He (and most of the cast in Force, really) is being treated like a character who's series is already finished.

Unfair, yes. But not uncommon. In long franchises that's one of the issues new characters almost always have to face, specially in those filled with popular characters. The fact that the plot itself is forcing comparissions between the new and old cast don't help. That way, the people who feels attached to the old cast are less receptive of the changes and stuff added by the new characters and more prone to criticism.

Force hasn't ended up yet but as stated before the bad pacing is also a problem since makes some people desperate and form their judges with what they have since they run out of patience for new material xDU.

Teana and Subaru have a good start since we saw their potential but they weren't overpowered right of the bat, we see them develope and work to obtain to achieve awesomeness xD. Still the first half of StrikerS was clumsy managed and thus bored part of the audience.

[Keroko]

Yeah, the large role of the old cast is one of the biggest faws in Force. Compared to Vivid, where the old cast has support roles at best, you can see how it allows the new characters to shine.

Force doesn't really have awful pacing though. Slow release hampered even more by half-chapters, yes. But the pacing's allright. Vivid's pace is slower, with plot threads raised in the first chapters barely or never having been touched upon since.