AnimeSuki Forums

00-Raiser · 2009-12-09, 23:25

It's kinda inconsistant, actually. Generally, Fate doesn't use honourifics because she's Mid-Childan. Nanoha, Yuuno, Teana, Chrono (when she doesn't call him onii-chan), etc all have no honourific. But then you have Caro (also mid native) calling Erio "Erio-kun" so... yeah.

Atleast with Vivio, she was raised by a japanese woman, so I imagine some cultural transference there.

Page claim for quick replies not starting a new page!

Thunderbird · 2009-12-09, 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Actually that makes a lot of sense to me, though I should probably point out that Fate maybe wasn't the best choice for some of the examples, since I don't recall her using any kind of honorific with anyone, be they friend, family, or foe.

Yeah now that you mention it...Fate might have been a poor choice for a couple of them. As far as I know...there has only been one person shes ever addressed with a Honorific (if there is another I completely forgot lolz) and that would be Precia. She always referred to her as "Oka-san".

Edit: Actually she used that same term for Lindy as well at the end of A's when it showed that she was formally adopted and she did toy with Chrono that one time when she and Nanoha first met Carim when she called him "Onii-chan~" hehehe

TheShinySword · 2009-12-09, 23:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

It's kinda inconsistant, actually. Generally, Fate doesn't use honourifics because she's Mid-Childan. Nanoha, Yuuno, Teana, Chrono (when she doesn't call him onii-chan), etc all have no honourific. But then you have Caro (also mid native) calling Erio "Erio-kun" so... yeah.

Atleast with Vivio, she was raised by a japanese woman, so I imagine some cultural transference there.

Yeah it just doesn't make sense. I say go with your gut 'cause it's the only thing that'll be consistent.

@Thunderbird: And even that is less an honorific and more just calling her mom, mom. Though it makes sense she wouldn't, I doubt Precia would have taken time to go over the nuances of the Japanese language with Fate (or Alicia for that matter)

Thunderbird · 2009-12-09, 23:30

I agree with Shiny...you should just go with your own gut for this one. The only reason the Nanoha crew actually *use* honorifics is because that's how the script was written. If it was written say over in the US it wouldn't have any of that.

Kaijo · 2009-12-09, 23:43

Honorifics can appear complex, and sometimes they are, but I can spell out the common ones and their common usage. Note that given name and family name are important in this system as well. Before we get into the honorifics, referring to someone as their family name is generally how you start. Once you get to know them, and if it's alright, then you can move up to using their given name.

Only when you really are close to someone, do you use their given name without any honorifics. Of course, everything goes out the window if someone wants to be insulting. If I didn't like you, and referred to you by your first name with no honorifics, it would be obvious that I hold no respect for you. But it does make Tsundere characters interesting, because they can refer to the guy solely by his first name, as both a lack of respect and to mask the developing closeness they feel.

-san: the most common, used for formally addressing people you generally don't know, or have some respect for (and you should generally have respect for people you don't know). I just meet Nanoha for the first time, so I called her "Takamachi-san." We all know how friendly she is, so she quickly tells me to call her Nanoha. I proceed to call her Nanoha-san.

-kun: generally a more familiar and friendly way to refer to guys, although older men might use it to refer to younger females. Fairly friendly. Nanoha uses it to refer to Yuuno-kun, as she's fairly close to him. If I was good friends with him, I'd probably call him Yuuno-kun, too. For fun, there's an early episode of Kero Gunsou where Momoko has a crush on Fuyuki, and she spends most of the episode trying to work up the nerve to call him Fuyuki-kun.

-chan: a degree of cuteness is inherent here. Close friends who are girls refer to each other as this, usually, evidence of Nanoha's "Fate-chan." Girlfriends can use this to refer to their boyfriends as well, depending on how cuteness-oriented the girl is. Older men and women can refer to young girls this way, and even to some guys (much to their chagrin).

-sama: high degree of respect, referring to those higher in station than you. Kings, lords, gods, nobles, etc.

Now what muddies the waters up a bit more, are nicknames and other words that can get appended to the end of a name. If Yuuno were teaching a class, his students would call him Yuuno-sensei. Sensei also referring to doctors, scientists, etc. Anybody who generally holds a lot of knowledge.

Members of a family may append the proper family title to a name, such as Wendi referring to her Quattro-oneechan. Subaru calls Ginga "Gin-ne" where the ne is short for oneechan, so it's mainly a kind of nickname. It also part of what makes StrikerS fairly whack when it comes to honorifics. More Recently, Touma is referring to Su-chan, which we assume to be Subaru. One thing that can confuse the issue, is that while oniichan is traditionally a big brother, it can also be used by younger girls referring to an older guy they feel somewhat close to. Even though Laguna called Vice as oniichan, I wasn't entirely sure they were actually brother and sister, because of this.

Childhood friends may make up names for each other. If you're familiar with Ranma 1/2, Ranma and Ukyo used to call each other "Ranchan" and "Ucchan." Basically, any letters dropped from a name or an honorific, can indicate something a bit closer than normal.

While quite a bit of this is easily transferable to English, some just don't translate well, so its up to each author if they want to include it. Especially with Nanoha, and it's hit or miss use of it, especially in places where it might not make sense. I am leaning towards just having the actual Japanese characters use it, as kind of a way to separate them out from the mid-childa people.

It does make things a bit more interesting in showing the advancing relationship between two people, and not necessarily romantic. Whether they use first or last name, and what honorific they apply, says a lot about how they feel about a person. Even if you don't want to write fics with them, it's helpful to know about them, so your next anime or manga, you can get a better idea of how characters are feeling about each other. That's also partly why I keep trying to use them, so I can keep their uses and meanings fresh in my mind.

Last note, just to confuse things even more. As has been pointed out, sometimes a particular way of referring to each other will stay, regardless of how close people come. In Ramna 1/2, Genma Saotome and Soun Tendo are very good friends, having known each other most of their lives. They still call each other "Saotome-kun" and "Tendo-kun."

I'm by no means an expert, and someone may correct or add to things I've said. These are just small things I've picked up over the years.

TheShinySword · 2009-12-09, 23:46

Okay before anyone else tries (Thank you for those who already have)

Please do not post anymore explanations on honorifics (everyone). Pretty much everyone here knows what they are at least on a basic level and if they don't there are a million resources on the web. I'm only saying this because now three people have given extensive breakdowns and they're quite nice so we don't need any more.

Saint X · 2009-12-09, 23:48

for me... i only use honorifics in explaining or if someone wants to read the JP way of saying it- usually enclosed in parenthesis

plain, simple and clutter-free

WE ARE WRITING IN ENGLISH HERE SO USE IT!!!!

Tempy · 2009-12-09, 23:49

...I don't like using them in fiction, ever.

Kaijo · 2009-12-09, 23:50

Yeah, I apologize for that. Took me awhile to write out, and only when I hit post, did I realize other people had explained it as well, heh. Well, people have three different viewpoints, that pretty much cover every use. So pick the explanation that makes most sense to you, or combine them to get a full view.

TheShinySword · 2009-12-09, 23:52

Naw don't apologize, I just wanted to make sure no one else did it. It was nice of you to take the time even if it was unnesscary

Nya~n · 2009-12-09, 23:53

/me shuts out the voices in my head screaming "weeaboo weeaboo weeaboo weeaboo weeaboo weeaboo weeaboo weeaboo" in response to the honourifics discussion.

Like Saint X said, we're writing in English, it would be better to write in a format more comfortable in the language. Inserting the nuances in your story without resorting to japanese honourifics... That would be a test of how well you write.

Satashi · 2009-12-09, 23:53

Satashi: *takes out DVD of Smallville and goes for next disc*

Vivio:*clears through* A-HEM!

Satashi: Eh? *turns* Oh! Vivio! What brings you here?

Vivio:*hand on hip* I was supposed to have lost my virginity by now.

Satashi:Er...Well you see...

Vivio: and what about my christmas story?

Satashi:That is, well-

Vivio:And that remake of Vivid you keep talking about?

Satashi: *hides the boxsets of Smallville seasons 5-7* I've been busy and all, and AlternativeS is-

Vivio:*crosses arms and taps foot* You havn't updated in a few days.

Satashi:Well, some authors only post whole chapters, I mean its not like-

Vivio:*Glare*

Satashi:.... I need to get in bed, I have my first composition 1 class tomorrow and I have to wake at six AM. *gets up and walks by her*

Vivio: What are these!? *grabs boxsets* Sata- *hears running footsteps.* oh you little-!

RadiantBeam · 2009-12-09, 23:56

Hey, at least she's going after you and not---

Vivio: You're next!

....

Dammit.

Rising Dragon · 2009-12-09, 23:57

Oh good, Vivio can pay me to keep on two people's cases about her virginity. More pay for me!

*shot*

Thunderbird · 2009-12-09, 23:58

Sorry mistress *steps aside* but there's just no way in Hell I am planning on standing up to a Kaiser...a pissed off one at that XD

I could help you catch Satashi though if that would help delay your capture? *shot by Vivio*

spawnofthejudge · 2009-12-10, 00:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Satashi

I have my first composition 1 class tomorrow...

Music Composition? *perks up*

itanshi1 · 2009-12-10, 00:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saint X

for me... i only use honorifics in explaining or if someone wants to read the JP way of saying it- usually enclosed in parenthesis

plain, simple and clutter-free

WE ARE WRITING IN ENGLISH HERE SO USE IT!!!!

x_x if we are being so PURE then why are we writing about a japanese story? Go write about an American story, you... sigh

Its not posing, its style. Do whatever you want, i mean is Monet wrong for using dots? Is it wrong to paint on a ceiling?

Its a gripe I can not let go. Anyone who bitches and moans on this topic sound as pathetic as I do putting up with it, perhaps. Still, I'd rather not devolve into kindergarten cooties here. That's what weeaboo sounds like to me. It's friggen cooties!

Satashi · 2009-12-10, 00:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by spawnofthejudge

Music Composition? *perks up*

Despite 3 of my closest friends being music people, sadly no. English comp 1. The summer course I took after highschool and the comp 2 class I took in my State college didn't transfer to ITT-Tech. (money hungry jerks)

If it makes you feel better, my friend has not only several thousand dollars worth ofpirated music software, but he has not only his guitar hookups, but his keyboard also ran through his computer

(and can play every instrument, including singing, on guitar hero world tour on expert)

Quote:

Originally Posted by itanshi1

x_x if we are being so PURE then why are we writing about a japanese story? Go write about an American story, you... sigh

Its not posing, its style. Do whatever you want, i mean is Monet wrong for using dots? Is it wrong to paint on a ceiling?

Its a gripe I can not let go. Anyone who bitches and moans on this topic sound as pathetic as I do putting up with it, perhaps. Still, I'd rather not devolve into kindergarten cooties here. That's what weeaboo sounds like to me. It's friggen cooties!

ouch, hit a nerve? I won't take sides here. how about a "to each their own" before we blow up on it?

00-Raiser · 2009-12-10, 00:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by RadiantBeam

Hey, at least she's going after you and not---

Vivio: You're next!

....

Dammit.

Well at least she's not going after me!

*Crickets chirp*

... nyoron~

TheShinySword · 2009-12-10, 00:05

@Satashi Hey they'll teach you about tense finally. *hugs Satashi* I only tease out of love?

EDIT:

You know, we've had a lot of anger and fighting these past couple of weeks. But I'd like to take a moment to say, I like you guys, and I hope to keep working with you guys. 'Cause what the forum needs now is love, sweet love, it's the only thing that's there's just too little of. Don't know what brought that on but I felt the need to say it.

2009-12-09, 23:25	Link #20881
00-Raiser Burst Mode Author Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Windsor, Ontario Age: 37	It's kinda inconsistant, actually. Generally, Fate doesn't use honourifics because she's Mid-Childan. Nanoha, Yuuno, Teana, Chrono (when she doesn't call him onii-chan), etc all have no honourific. But then you have Caro (also mid native) calling Erio "Erio-kun" so... yeah. Atleast with Vivio, she was raised by a japanese woman, so I imagine some cultural transference there. Page claim for quick replies not starting a new page! __________________

2009-12-09, 23:30	Link #20884
Thunderbird IS: Liar's Mask Author Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Sendai	I agree with Shiny...you should just go with your own gut for this one. The only reason the Nanoha crew actually use honorifics is because that's how the script was written. If it was written say over in the US it wouldn't have any of that. __________________ Life is a waste of time, Time is a waste of life, Get wasted all the time, And have the time of your life ^.^ My Stories ^.^

2009-12-09, 23:48	Link #20887
Saint X VxR Productions IT Support Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Philippines	for me... i only use honorifics in explaining or if someone wants to read the JP way of saying it- usually enclosed in parenthesis plain, simple and clutter-free WE ARE WRITING IN ENGLISH HERE SO USE IT!!!! __________________

2009-12-09, 23:49	Link #20888
Tempy Σ(。д°(o--(ಠ益ಠ ) Author Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Hotsprings Resort Age: 37	...I don't like using them in fiction, ever. __________________

2009-12-09, 23:53	Link #20891
Nya~n umbrella moe~♥ Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: huh wha-?	/me shuts out the voices in my head screaming "weeaboo weeaboo weeaboo weeaboo weeaboo weeaboo weeaboo weeaboo" in response to the honourifics discussion. Like Saint X said, we're writing in English, it would be better to write in a format more comfortable in the language. Inserting the nuances in your story without resorting to japanese honourifics... That would be a test of how well you write. __________________

2009-12-09, 23:43	Link #20885
Kaijo Banned Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Somewhere over the rainbow, in a house dropped on an ugly, old woman.	Honorifics can appear complex, and sometimes they are, but I can spell out the common ones and their common usage. Note that given name and family name are important in this system as well. Before we get into the honorifics, referring to someone as their family name is generally how you start. Once you get to know them, and if it's alright, then you can move up to using their given name. Only when you really are close to someone, do you use their given name without any honorifics. Of course, everything goes out the window if someone wants to be insulting. If I didn't like you, and referred to you by your first name with no honorifics, it would be obvious that I hold no respect for you. But it does make Tsundere characters interesting, because they can refer to the guy solely by his first name, as both a lack of respect and to mask the developing closeness they feel. -san: the most common, used for formally addressing people you generally don't know, or have some respect for (and you should generally have respect for people you don't know). I just meet Nanoha for the first time, so I called her "Takamachi-san." We all know how friendly she is, so she quickly tells me to call her Nanoha. I proceed to call her Nanoha-san. -kun: generally a more familiar and friendly way to refer to guys, although older men might use it to refer to younger females. Fairly friendly. Nanoha uses it to refer to Yuuno-kun, as she's fairly close to him. If I was good friends with him, I'd probably call him Yuuno-kun, too. For fun, there's an early episode of Kero Gunsou where Momoko has a crush on Fuyuki, and she spends most of the episode trying to work up the nerve to call him Fuyuki-kun. -chan: a degree of cuteness is inherent here. Close friends who are girls refer to each other as this, usually, evidence of Nanoha's "Fate-chan." Girlfriends can use this to refer to their boyfriends as well, depending on how cuteness-oriented the girl is. Older men and women can refer to young girls this way, and even to some guys (much to their chagrin). -sama: high degree of respect, referring to those higher in station than you. Kings, lords, gods, nobles, etc. Now what muddies the waters up a bit more, are nicknames and other words that can get appended to the end of a name. If Yuuno were teaching a class, his students would call him Yuuno-sensei. Sensei also referring to doctors, scientists, etc. Anybody who generally holds a lot of knowledge. Members of a family may append the proper family title to a name, such as Wendi referring to her Quattro-oneechan. Subaru calls Ginga "Gin-ne" where the ne is short for oneechan, so it's mainly a kind of nickname. It also part of what makes StrikerS fairly whack when it comes to honorifics. More Recently, Touma is referring to Su-chan, which we assume to be Subaru. One thing that can confuse the issue, is that while oniichan is traditionally a big brother, it can also be used by younger girls referring to an older guy they feel somewhat close to. Even though Laguna called Vice as oniichan, I wasn't entirely sure they were actually brother and sister, because of this. Childhood friends may make up names for each other. If you're familiar with Ranma 1/2, Ranma and Ukyo used to call each other "Ranchan" and "Ucchan." Basically, any letters dropped from a name or an honorific, can indicate something a bit closer than normal. While quite a bit of this is easily transferable to English, some just don't translate well, so its up to each author if they want to include it. Especially with Nanoha, and it's hit or miss use of it, especially in places where it might not make sense. I am leaning towards just having the actual Japanese characters use it, as kind of a way to separate them out from the mid-childa people. It does make things a bit more interesting in showing the advancing relationship between two people, and not necessarily romantic. Whether they use first or last name, and what honorific they apply, says a lot about how they feel about a person. Even if you don't want to write fics with them, it's helpful to know about them, so your next anime or manga, you can get a better idea of how characters are feeling about each other. That's also partly why I keep trying to use them, so I can keep their uses and meanings fresh in my mind. Last note, just to confuse things even more. As has been pointed out, sometimes a particular way of referring to each other will stay, regardless of how close people come. In Ramna 1/2, Genma Saotome and Soun Tendo are very good friends, having known each other most of their lives. They still call each other "Saotome-kun" and "Tendo-kun." I'm by no means an expert, and someone may correct or add to things I've said. These are just small things I've picked up over the years.

2009-12-09, 23:46	Link #20886
TheShinySword Master of the Shiny Crack Author Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: In a cave	Okay before anyone else tries (Thank you for those who already have) Please do not post anymore explanations on honorifics (everyone). Pretty much everyone here knows what they are at least on a basic level and if they don't there are a million resources on the web. I'm only saying this because now three people have given extensive breakdowns and they're quite nice so we don't need any more.

2009-12-09, 23:50	Link #20889
Kaijo Banned Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Somewhere over the rainbow, in a house dropped on an ugly, old woman.	Yeah, I apologize for that. Took me awhile to write out, and only when I hit post, did I realize other people had explained it as well, heh. Well, people have three different viewpoints, that pretty much cover every use. So pick the explanation that makes most sense to you, or combine them to get a full view.

2009-12-09, 23:52	Link #20890
TheShinySword Master of the Shiny Crack Author Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: In a cave	Naw don't apologize, I just wanted to make sure no one else did it. It was nice of you to take the time even if it was unnesscary

2009-12-09, 23:53	Link #20892
Satashi Vividly Vivio Author Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Over there Age: 40	Satashi: takes out DVD of Smallville and goes for next disc Vivio:clears through A-HEM! Satashi: Eh? turns Oh! Vivio! What brings you here? Vivio:hand on hip I was supposed to have lost my virginity by now. Satashi:Er...Well you see... Vivio: and what about my christmas story? Satashi:That is, well- Vivio:And that remake of Vivid you keep talking about? Satashi: hides the boxsets of Smallville seasons 5-7 I've been busy and all, and AlternativeS is- Vivio:crosses arms and taps foot You havn't updated in a few days. Satashi:Well, some authors only post whole chapters, I mean its not like- Vivio:Glare Satashi:.... I need to get in bed, I have my first composition 1 class tomorrow and I have to wake at six AM. gets up and walks by her Vivio: What are these!? grabs boxsets Sata- hears running footsteps. oh you little-! __________________ Chat room, The Shorts Archive,The Shorts Archive II,The Crack Archive Terms, Help post

2009-12-09, 23:57	Link #20894
Rising Dragon Goat Herder Author Join Date: Jun 2008 Age: 36	Oh good, Vivio can pay me to keep on two people's cases about her virginity. More pay for me! shot __________________

2009-12-09, 23:58	Link #20895
Thunderbird IS: Liar's Mask Author Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Sendai	Sorry mistress steps aside but there's just no way in Hell I am planning on standing up to a Kaiser...a pissed off one at that XD I could help you catch Satashi though if that would help delay your capture? shot by Vivio __________________ Life is a waste of time, Time is a waste of life, Get wasted all the time, And have the time of your life ^.^ My Stories ^.^

2009-12-10, 00:05	Link #20900
TheShinySword Master of the Shiny Crack Author Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: In a cave	@Satashi Hey they'll teach you about tense finally. hugs Satashi I only tease out of love? EDIT: You know, we've had a lot of anger and fighting these past couple of weeks. But I'd like to take a moment to say, I like you guys, and I hope to keep working with you guys. 'Cause what the forum needs now is love, sweet love, it's the only thing that's there's just too little of. Don't know what brought that on but I felt the need to say it. Last edited by TheShinySword; 2009-12-10 at 00:30.