Hanasaku Iroha (generic discussion thread)

[Pocari_Sweat]

Regarding the hate regarding the grandmother, I'm going to post something I posted somewhere else:

"It seems that theres a lot of hate regarding the grandmother, but I can tell these people haven't watched many Asian dramas, because that character archtype is VERY common. These kind of matriarchal character almost all the time end up as good characters. It really isn't a surprise as the grandmother is just assuming that Ohana is like her mother - an irresponsible person who eloped when she was young. The face of the grandmother just before she triple-slapped Ohana showed that Ohana has already gained a little bit of respect from the grandmother in how she is trying to be responsible. Also the fact that everyone in the inn seems to respect the grandmother without any opposition.

In Asian countries, theres this very much still alive belief that the most effective form of punishment for a person, is to openly in front of that person, punish someone else, usually someone close to them. To give an example, when a younger sibling does something wrong, the parents will call out both the younger sibling and the olders sibling and punish the older sibling in front of the younger sibling for "not taking care of the younger sibling in the correct way". This results in the younger sibling feeling guilty for the older sibling and in theory fixing that wrong act or habit. If everything turns out ideally, then the younger sibling is expected to plead to their parents not to involve the older sibling at all and that it was purely their fault. The older sibling is expected to "take the blow". This is exactly what happened with Ohana when Minko was slapped in front of Ohana and Minko not retaliating and Ohana stood up that it was her fault."

From a 22 year old from a semi-traditional Korean family.

[Kaoru Chujo]

1. I don't hate the grandmother. She is clearly going to become a sympathetic character. I just don't want slapping people to be considered a proper way to behave. Asian culture has a lot of strengths, but it shouldn't be proud of its faults -- such as violence and lack of respect toward young people. There is a happy medium somewhere, isn't there?

2. Great point from acejem about unjustly punishing someone in front of the real perpetrator. It puts tremendous moral pressure on the second person -- with results like those we saw.

3. Minko is clearly a complex and strong character, and will likely become Ohana's bulwark as the story progresses. Since I couldn't explain her harshness, I didn't blame her for it. There is something more going on that we have to understand first.

[Malkuth]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

1. I don't hate the grandmother. She is clearly going to become a sympathetic character. I just don't want slapping people to be considered a proper way to behave. Asian culture has a lot of strengths, but it shouldn't be proud of its faults -- such as violence and lack of respect toward young people. There is a happy medium somewhere, isn't there?

Wait a second, how did slapping your children become asian? Abuse is/was viewed as the main method of discipline/education for children (and not only) all around the world.

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by acejem

In Asian countries, theres this very much still alive belief that the most effective form of punishment for a person, is to openly in front of that person, punish someone else, usually someone close to them. To give an example, when a younger sibling does something wrong, the parents will call out both the younger sibling and the olders sibling and punish the older sibling in front of the younger sibling for "not taking care of the younger sibling in the correct way". This results in the younger sibling feeling guilty for the older sibling and in theory fixing that wrong act or habit. If everything turns out ideally, then the younger sibling is expected to plead to their parents not to involve the older sibling at all and that it was purely their fault. The older sibling is expected to "take the blow". This is exactly what happened with Ohana when Minko was slapped in front of Ohana and Minko not retaliating and Ohana stood up that it was her fault."

Huh. That does make sense. Certainly allot more sensible than the Grandmother seriously believing that by some faulty logic train that Minko having a dusty sheet in her bedroom was personally responsible for having it fall down on one of the guests. In that sense the Grandmothers plan to discipline Ohana was quite effective (even more than she expected, since Ohana went and demanded to be disciplined herself).


Although it does seem a bit questionable when the person who has to *take it* is Minko. From what I've seen so far, she seems to take punishment/reprimands silently from an authority figure, then lash it out against someone lower on the pecking order. OTOH, if Grandma is really traditional, she probably doesn't see much problem with letting the kids sort it out with each other as long as it doesn't effect work/buisness.

[Seihai]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

Wait a second, how did slapping your children become asian? Abuse is/was viewed as the main method of discipline/education for children (and not only) all around the world.

He didn't say other countries don't have people slapping children, but it's one notable trait of the Asian culture. And it still persists more notably than in other countries nowadays. Kaoru Chujo didn't monopolise that fact.

[Malkuth]

Originally Posted by Vanish

He didn't say other countries don't have people slapping children, but it's one notable trait of the Asian culture. And it still persists more notably than in other countries nowadays. Kaoru Chujo didn't monopolise that fact.

Maybe my post was too direct... let me elaborate. Abusing children for educational purposes is a well accepted method by the vast majority conservative and fundamentalist societies, therefore it is prevalent, yet not exclusive (in occurrence) in Asia. We are not really saying something totally different, I just wish to point out that it is not so rare among people to consider this form abuse educational, even in Europe, at a smaller percentage of course. In any case, I doubt that it's going to be a big part of the show in later episodes

[Haak]

Having experienced that kind of punishment from my parents when I was growing up, I can't really agree with that method. If anything that lead me in the wrong direction, learning to work out of fear of reprimand rather than anything else. I'm still trying to correct some of the bad habits I picked up because of that. I can understand where her grandmother is coming from, but I still can't help but dislike her.

[spawnofthejudge]

Just because a character's actions are understandable does not make that character likable in and of itself.

Some of us have trouble justifying hitting someone like that ever, regardless of situation. Seeing this as essentially our introduction to the Grandmother means that she has to make up for that much more in some of our minds.

Telling us that her actions are understandable/acceptable to her doesn't change that.

[Reckoner]

Rottin kids. We should give em' a beatin' for messin with mah property.

Anyhow, like Haak pointed out... Violence is a temporary solution (albeit an effective one if one doesn't forget to reapply). The human spirit is limited by the flesh, and will break down. If the grandmother is trying to get her to listen with violence, it's going to work. However as perhaps seen with what happened with the mother, when freedom comes, the person in question is probably unlikely to make good decisions on their own.

[coolhorsems]

Originally Posted by acejem

Regarding the hate regarding the grandmother, I'm going to post something I posted somewhere else:

"It seems that theres a lot of hate regarding the grandmother, but I can tell these people haven't watched many Asian dramas, because that character archtype is VERY common. These kind of matriarchal character almost all the time end up as good characters. It really isn't a surprise as the grandmother is just assuming that Ohana is like her mother - an irresponsible person who eloped when she was young. The face of the grandmother just before she triple-slapped Ohana showed that Ohana has already gained a little bit of respect from the grandmother in how she is trying to be responsible. Also the fact that everyone in the inn seems to respect the grandmother without any opposition.

In Asian countries, theres this very much still alive belief that the most effective form of punishment for a person, is to openly in front of that person, punish someone else, usually someone close to them. To give an example, when a younger sibling does something wrong, the parents will call out both the younger sibling and the olders sibling and punish the older sibling in front of the younger sibling for "not taking care of the younger sibling in the correct way". This results in the younger sibling feeling guilty for the older sibling and in theory fixing that wrong act or habit. If everything turns out ideally, then the younger sibling is expected to plead to their parents not to involve the older sibling at all and that it was purely their fault. The older sibling is expected to "take the blow". This is exactly what happened with Ohana when Minko was slapped in front of Ohana and Minko not retaliating and Ohana stood up that it was her fault."

From a 22 year old from a semi-traditional Korean family.

Interesting, and I want to add some point with this regard.
In western countries, most companies have the same culture that employer should respect and encourage subordinates with positive reinforcements. Even an employee did commit some mistakes; the employer should talk to him/her privately so that it will not hurt his/her self-esteem. However in Asian countries including Japan and China, many employers will just use the opposite way. Public criticism and even physical punishment (well, of course I don’ only mean body hurt, some other ways such as work overtime will be concerned) sometimes turn out to be more effective to “educate” the employees. By doing this the employer can not only stimulate the employ being criticized to work hard, but also pose a threat to other employees , warning them not committing the same mistake again.
Following two main reasons, including but not limited to, that lead to such culture:
1. Competition for job is fierce in Asia, employers can replace the employee easily and thus put them in a favor position. As a result, employers can threaten employee and don’t need to worry about the consequence. (As for Asian employee, the opportunity cost of finding another job is usually high because the labor market is always oversupply!) In addition, As for most small businesses in Asia, there is no work Union that stand up for them, which make the employee side become weaker.
2. Authoritarianism and patriarchism. In Asia one person’s social position is somehow related to his/her age . So in a company even the older (employer) is stale and stubborn and push the youth (employee) too far, the latter still need to take this without complaint. To openly fight with the older is a great disrespect to one's superior and will not be supported by social majority. (Asian people really emphasize a lot on respecting older people!)

As a result, for Asian companies, especially those small businesses, the negative reinforcement such as open criticism and physical punishment are widely used. Employees who don’t have strong work Union to backup can only take this and try to improve their performance in the future.
On other words, If you are lazy or clumsy enough, you may just get fired and find yourself a new job; If you feel shame about the mistake you have done, then try to be strong and tough and do your best next time.
Finally, let’s back to the show. “Disgrace” plays an important role in Japan’s culture. One who commits a mistake should feel deep shame about it and should not commit it again. To know the things of shame is to be near to fortitude, the shame experience and painful memory will make people to grow and more persistent and dauntless in doing their job. This is the philosophy behind the grandma’s behavior, and she just wants to use a very traditional way to “teach” our little Ohana. However, Ohana is a particular case and “unfortunately deviate from the routine other people will go, so the conflict between the two generation (Tradition VS. Individuality) will inevitably come out.

[Roger Rambo]

On the other hand, it's important to remember that this kind of culture might not necessarily encourage people to feel shamed about making a mistake. They'll feel shame over being reprimanded. This results in the persons primary motivation being to avoid shame, rather than to avoid mistakes or problems. So you can have a worker make a mistake (or notice a possible severe problem), but then they won't bring it up for management out of fear, hoping that by keeping quite the blame won't get stuck on them.


This might not be such a big issue in a small buisness setting, but when you're working within a large bureaucracy these kind of problems can build up.



edit: I will say that I find it amazing that people still are surprised by cultural elements like this appearing in anime. This is something you'd find in tons of classic anime. I'm a little bit curious why anime fans would continue to be surprised by something like this.

[spawnofthejudge]

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

edit: I will say that I find it amazing that people still are surprised by cultural elements like this appearing in anime. This is something you'd find in tons of classic anime. I'm a little bit curious why anime fans would continue to be surprised by something like this.

Because each new fan to anime has to have their opportunity to be surprised by it? It's not like anime fans today are the exact same people as anime fans ten years ago.

[cyth]

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

If Tokyo is so expensive, why would budget conscious animation companies head qaurters there?

Because Japanese are crappy at thinking outside of the box. Seriously though, Tokyo has its upsides, for example it's easier to do business where the animation industry congregates. Even P.A.Works has an office in Tokyo, at the same time though they're collaborating with local businesses around Toyama and now Ishikawa. Kyoto animation has been around for a very long time now but they seem to be doing fine outside of Tokyo. So who knows...

[ThereminVox]

I appreciate that people are taking the time to contextualize the grandmother's perspective on authority and work ethic, since I think both will be recurring motifs.

Thematically, I think it could be important to be aware of is just how far from her old life Ohana is. She's not so much being set up as a Cinderella to her Grandma's evil step-mom so much as she's supposed to be arriving at the inn after growing up in a completely different world where she was surrounded by the modern big city culture, and where I imagine her mother was fairly permissive with her. Obviously the show is just getting off the ground, so a lot of this is just what I'm getting from it, but I think I sympathize with her not so much because she's being treated outright unfairly, but because nothing she's experienced could have prepared her adequately for this situation.

She actually comes off as a kind of naive and even a little thoughtless -- her unwelcome gardening, her unrealistic expectations of her new life being a spontaneous adventure, etc -- though it's hard to fault her too much for it, because her values conflict with the culture of the inn. If anything, a stern authority figure would probably do her some good as a developing human being, but you have to feel sorry for her because she's given no time at all to adjust to this more conservative and old-fashioned way of thinking, and no leeway whatsoever from her grandmother. Of course they'll have plenty of time to come to a mutual understanding, but for the time being, Ohana sees her grandmother's way of treating others to be unfair, and they're going to clash over it.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by acejem

In Asian countries, theres this very much still alive belief that the most effective form of punishment for a person, is to openly in front of that person, punish someone else, usually someone close to them. To give an example, when a younger sibling does something wrong, the parents will call out both the younger sibling and the olders sibling and punish the older sibling in front of the younger sibling for "not taking care of the younger sibling in the correct way". This results in the younger sibling feeling guilty for the older sibling and in theory fixing that wrong act or habit. If everything turns out ideally, then the younger sibling is expected to plead to their parents not to involve the older sibling at all and that it was purely their fault. The older sibling is expected to "take the blow". This is exactly what happened with Ohana when Minko was slapped in front of Ohana and Minko not retaliating and Ohana stood up that it was her fault."

This is seriously twisted logic. What do I know? Perhaps it works, but it's completely unfair to the "older sibling". Not to mention, it will make them resent their younger sibling even more. I really don't think this is a healthy way to punish somebody.

Minko did not deserve to be punished. That's the reason I dislike the grandmother for now. I don't approve of her slapping Ohana but she had real reasons to do it. However, it was wrong to slap Minko (she used the back of her hand too! Damn, that woman is like a pimp keeping her hoes in line) and blame her for Ohana's actions. It's not like she was tasked with watching over her.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by spawnofthejudge

Because each new fan to anime has to have their opportunity to be surprised by it? It's not like anime fans today are the exact same people as anime fans ten years ago.

Also.. many people (young ones in particular) are often stunned by the idea that the entire world isn't "like their neighborhood" ... another form of cultural centrism based on lack of exposure.

[RedWing]

Originally Posted by spawnofthejudge

Some of us have trouble justifying hitting someone like that ever, regardless of situation.

Really? I must say I find that hard to believe.

[cyth]

Originally Posted by Vexx

Also.. many people (young ones in particular) are often stunned by the idea that the entire world isn't "like their neighborhood" ... another form of cultural centrism based on lack of exposure.

Our world has like a gazillion different value systems. We could argue it's what sets off most disputes, be them wars or even heads clashing on forums. Can't really blame anybody for it; it takes people their entire lifetimes to really get comfortable with this idea. Some just die thinking they were "right" the whole time.

[spawnofthejudge]

Originally Posted by RedWing

Really? I must say I find that hard to believe.

Pacifists exist.

[Kismet-chan]

Wow. It seems like a loooooot of people in the past couple of pages were either not raised properly or were raised in a very, VERY relaxed manner. Asian culture tends to be a lot more straight-laced and serious when it comes to family life than other countries (American family life DEFINITELY being at the very bottom of that pool). There is nothing odd or harsh about the grandmother's ways through the eyes of a person who comes from a strict family, if you're not from one yourself, you just need to be able to realize that.

Now take it down a notch, sheesh.