2009-10-10, 19:19 | Link #2121 | |||||||||||
Senior Member
Author
|
Quote:
If we disagree... fine. I'm just trying to convey to you where I'm coming from on the issues that we're debating. Quote:
...Yes, I find that very hard to swallow. If Nanoha's defense is that spectacular, then how was Fate defeating her so much earlier on in the anime? And, for that matter, if Fate is a "fragile speedster" that Nanoha was typically able to keep up with (and she was; it was flash-step then flash-step then flash-step for both of them), then why did Fate win all of those fights with Nanoha? Why wasn't Nanoha able to take advantage of Fate's "fragile" defense? Fate dominated her ongoing feud with Nanoha in the early going of the original anime; this is something that I often think that Fate doesn't get enough credit for. The final Nanoha/Fate fight was the only one that Nanoha actually won. I'd score the first two fights as definitive Fate victories, and the other fights (other than the final one) as draws at best for Nanoha. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
But if it doesn't jive with actual canon feats, then you disregard the information for the same reason you would disregard performance specs for an item that, when you use it, doesn't actually live up to the specs. Quote:
Look at her facial expressions when Nanoha first shot a Divine Buster at her. Vita's facial expression clearly betrays either a certain degree of awe, or even downright fear, at the sight of the Divine Buster. Since Vita is fairly fearless, I'm going with the lesser possibility of "a certain degree of awe". Quote:
Quote:
That is not my method of arguing, Keroko! I have given multiple reasons, totally unrelated to how the attacks looked, for why I hold my position on these attacks. You may not agree with those reasons, but it's simply not accurate to say that they're based on how the attacks looked. Not once did I say "the Divine Buster looks cooler so it must be stronger". Quote:
I offered you a civil agree to disagree. Why would I do that if I was trying to force my views on other people, as you seem to be implying here? All I'm trying to do here is explain where I'm coming from, and, yes, pick up for a character that I like a lot in Fate. Quote:
Quote:
Anyway... show trumps tell. In-canon-on-screen-events are more valuable than off-screen background information. In-canon-events validate the off-screen background information, not the other way around. If the in-canon-events contradict the off-screen background information, then you discard the off-screen background information, imo. Now... I've said it before on the Haruhi board, and I'm saying it now on the Nanoha board. I'm not doing 1-on-4 debates where I'm the 1. So... I'm going to try to exit this thread for the forseeable future. I may choose to rewatch some key Nanoha scenes, and later get back to the arguments of others on this thread later after doing so. Good day.
__________________
|
|||||||||||
2009-10-10, 19:42 | Link #2123 | |
Blazing General
Join Date: May 2006
Location: CA
Age: 37
|
Quote:
There are actually two characters who do, but they're both familiars.
__________________
|
|
2009-10-10, 19:45 | Link #2124 |
blinded by blood
Author
|
Not that I care all that much, but Triple R has a point.
Observation shows that x ability is stronger than y ability. Eyewitness (viewer) accounts bear this out. All There in the Manual claims that y ability is stronger than x ability. This doesn't line up with what the viewer witnessed, and must be disregarded as inaccurate.
__________________
|
2009-10-10, 19:51 | Link #2125 |
Blazing General
Join Date: May 2006
Location: CA
Age: 37
|
'What the viewer witnessed' is often subject to interpretation. Depending on comparisons between multiple scenes in such an argument will only widen the range of conclusions that people can reach.
It's not quite as bad here since we can go back and review, but there's a reason why 'eyewitness accounts' are considered worthless.
__________________
|
2009-10-10, 20:02 | Link #2126 | |||
On a mission
Author
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
|
|||
2009-10-10, 20:19 | Link #2129 | ||||
Senior Member
Author
|
Quote:
I'm relieved that at least somebody here agrees with me on feats vs. appraisals. After being part of serious, thousand-member-plus fighting boards that always put canon feats over background appraisals, I'm amazed to find so many people here on Anime Suki doing the exact opposite. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
And, in the case of assessments of an anime fight, we the viewer have the benefit of a constant bird's eye view of everything; the fight visuals are designed so that we get the best possible shots of everything. This is why "eyewitness accounts" of anime fights are arguably of even greater value than 'real world' eyewitness accounts.
__________________
|
||||
2009-10-10, 20:25 | Link #2130 | ||
On a mission
Author
|
Quote:
Quote:
Though I am not really sure how events that happened before StrikerS can tell about how strong in an area they are now. Everyone must have gotten significantly better after all these years.
__________________
|
||
2009-10-10, 20:29 | Link #2131 | ||
Senior Member
Author
|
Quote:
Quote:
Perhaps there's nothing at all we can say definitively about Fate's magical defense capabilities, as I don't recall Fate using magical shields much at all.
__________________
|
||
2009-10-10, 20:33 | Link #2132 |
On a mission
Author
|
Well from what I saw from Strikers, I can speculate a little. Her armor changed a lot. She also had her old style in sonic form, but it can be assumed that Impulse Form had better defense since in Sonic Form, since her enemies were scoffing about how fragile Sonic Form was as all power was devoted to offense at that point. But this is just a guess.
__________________
Last edited by Archon_Wing; 2009-10-10 at 20:49. |
2009-10-10, 21:18 | Link #2133 |
~ Your Smile ~
Author
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: 346Pro
Age: 38
|
This eyewitness vs booklets debate has been done to death of the tech thread. Can we leave it be, or at least take it into the tech thread, where this discussion has evolved to actually belong? It's far too specialized for a General Discussion now...
PS: FFTers, see why I'm afraid of posting what I wanted to post? ^^;;;;;;;
__________________
|
2009-10-10, 22:08 | Link #2134 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
|
Quote:
Quote:
In fact, I'll say that Fate clearly won only the second fight (the one in the onsen). For the first fight, for all her inexperience, Nanoha was actually doing pretty well (she wasn't winning, but she's doing pretty well) until she was distracted (error on Nanoha's part for losing awareness of her opponent and Yunno's mistake for distracting her) and Fate took the chance to shoot her, thus giving us an example of how important it is to actually DEFEND rather than rely on your BJ ... a win, but not exactly one I'll take pride in. You might also notice that the 2nd battle is itself a sign of Fate's weakness in defense (as defined in staying unhurt). She won the fight, but she wasn't the one in better shape after the Beam Tug of War. Nanoha was uninjured except maybe in pride, while Arf was still fretting about Fate's wound (it doesn't seem to be from her mother, since she hadn't returned to mother yet), almost certainly from the last fight. I was actually debating whether to join in. For one thing, I basically agree with your stance on Feats (however, we called this Observation in my old board) and Appraisals (we lump this into Dialogue or Literature). However, your way of using the Feats stink, enough that Keroko can win. The feats themselves are objective, and making excuses to deny them for "coolness" is just burying your head in the sand IMO. But our ability to measure them is limited (and sometimes there plain isn't enough data in the visible spectrum). So, when the observation ends, we in fact have a "circle" of acceptable positions - and if we did this right, the exactly correct answer should be somewhere in the circle, but it is unreachable. This is true in real life (and observation follows the same basic principles, though with much cruder tools and resulting accuracy), though of course you can bring more instrumentation and models into at least some real-life situations so your circle would be much smaller. Where two (or more) interpretations fit inside that circle, it is impermissible (and anti-canon) to take the interpretation that invalidates the Appraisal. Sure, they might be lying, but it is invalid to just ASSUME that to satisfy your gut. But then, that's not even the biggest problem with your argument. The biggest is that you can't actually come up with cases to buff Fate. At worst you are weakening Nanoha, but that's not the same thing and even that's not going too well because the cases you cite are ambiguous (they have HUGE circles and even overlapping them doesn't help fix down the plot). So they lack the specificity to contradict the Appraisal. |
||
2009-10-11, 01:25 | Link #2139 |
Writer, Jester, MtG nerd
|
I recall a mod at another forum calling debates like this 'mental masterbation'
Sigh, the series is not so complicated that it has need for the variance people are seeking. They are what they, primarily, are. There is no need to mix classes of fighters. Whatever they are is an awesome thing for them being so good at what they are. Y'see? If Grys vok cosplayed as a turkey, I'd cough up a gasket.
__________________
Last edited by itanshi1; 2009-10-11 at 03:01. |
2009-10-11, 04:21 | Link #2140 | |
Love Hina?
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Kangaroos live in my backyard =P
|
Quote:
User: Fate Tesstarossa Magic Rank: AAA A variation of Photon Lancer, which at one point was Fate's most powerful attack. Over 30 shots of 'Photon Lancer' are rapidly fired at high speed at the target. According to the novel, 38 shots are initially formed. The attack continues for 4 seconds, with volleys of 38 shots 7x per second, resulting in a total of 1064 shots striking the target. Megami Magazine reports roughly the same figures, but has no mention of how long the attack continues for. Fate's training (education) was planned around an emphasis on mobility for defenses and countermeasures (attack). Referring to examples, Linnith told Fate that people were able to generate 20 shots, but set a lower limit of 30 shots for Fate to aim for. Due to poor control, Fate was initially able to only create 3 shots. However, the goal was finally met when Fate tried with Bardich in hand, an intelligent device that Linnith had made for Fate. Although not as powerful as Nanoha's Starlight Breaker, the time necessary for the incantation of PL:PS, as well the magic necessary to cast, puts it in the same category of spell difficulty. In the original story, the time needed to cast the spell was gained by casting lightning bind on Nanoha. One point to remember is that as the attack consumes a lot of Fate's mana the technique is supposed to be a one-hit-kill technique for use in tight situations. Linnith said that there are hardly any individuals that would be able to defend against the attack. In the novel, the barrier jacket only just managed to save nanoha from injury. However in the anime, it was blocked without any damage. Incidentally, 'Phalanx Shift' is a term derived from phalanx, a word from ancient Greece that describes a close formation that can be used for defense and offense. Besides this, it can come from Vulcan phalanx, which describes a rapid firing gun. Someone else should probably check the translation, but I'm fairly confident that I got it right. May do the Divine Buster TL another day, but I need to get back to doing proper homework now... |
|
|
|