[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Renall]

Maybe if you want people not to know the truth you should stop writing damn books with it in there. Locked or not. I mean it's only a metaphorical book, but on the other hand it's only a metaphorical lock, so it really only takes a Bernkastel-equivalent and a metaphorical crowbar and blowtorch to get into it.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this metaphor. Metaphorically speaking.

On the other hand, it's a valid point: If you want to preserve the illusion, why are you still writing? If Featherine is right and even the illusion contains the truth in some fundamental form, isn't that counterproductive to your goals? We've seen nothing that suggests that the illusion as already established is genuinely threatened by anyone in the real world, unless the goats are seen to be some kind of threat through their rampant speculation. But if that were true, there is only one way to actually shut them up, and I'll give you a hint: It doesn't involve preserving the illusion.

It really seems like an unwinnable scenario. The only way to save the beauty one wants to preserve from being washed away by irresponsible guesswork is to expose the truth behind it. But that would potentially destroy it anyway, depending on what that truth is. So it's really a choice between a slow death and a quick one. Surely Battler/Tohya is aware of this.

But he keeps at it. Very... curious, wouldn't you say?

[Jan-Poo]

Well apparently Bernkastel couldn't metaphorically force her way into that book as she couldn't open the book not even if she snatched the key from Ange's hands.

Since it is a metaphorical book I don't think its content must be something that Battler wrote in real life but simply the truth that lies in his memory, and he certainly couldn't eras... oh well...

Anyway what I mean to say is that the book probably represents the real events of Rokkenjima as Battler recollected them. The fact that the book was sealed closed in a coffin and warded off in my opinion is a pretty good metaphor of a memory that has been hidden.

But as the good Freud would teach us, no matter how strongly you try to bury an unwanted memory, some fragments of it are bound to emerge, especially if you start writing a lot of stuff.

So in a way inside Tohya's stories the truth of Rokkenjima was somehow hidden and could be recreated putting together the various pieces. This is what Ange probably did in the end.

I think this kind of reasoning matches pretty well with the metaphor that was narrated.

[Renall]

So you're suggesting the truth may have subconsciously found its way into Battler's attempt to preserve the illusion? Still, he has to be aware of public perception of the incident. Even if he isn't exposing himself to it much, Ikuko appears to do so with some degree of regularity, so he must know about it.

Does he think he's doing what he intends without realizing what the actual effect is? Or is he hoping there will be people out there like Ange that get the "right" idea?

[Jan-Poo]

If we are to trust what has been narrated in EP8 Tohya started writing the forgeries before he could even remember his past.

We aren't even sure if in the end he remembered anything at all. At least he says he doesn't to Ange in the end.

The will to keep the illusion and protect the truth is Battler's will and not Tohya's. In other words this "will" is also in his subconscious and that's probably what actually prevents Tohya from remembering.

[Kealym]

Originally Posted by haguruma

I think that is a matter of interpretation, because for me Yasu never had any part in the meta world at all, except creating the character of Beatrice, with all it's extensions.

What died in EP5 was basically neither Yasu nor Beatrice, but a representation of Yasu's readiness to sacrifice his/her innocence in order to preserve the chance of a happy future.

Which is basically BATTLER's and Tôya's idea of protecting the memory of the Ushiromiya's and all the Beatrice's...and therefore also Yasu's wish to protect them by creating the illusion of the murdering witch.

I think it's no accident that the song ends with the wish "my beloved one...rest in peace". Like EP8 it's not directed towards a certain person but all those who were invloved...although of course for Battler it's especially Yasu, who gave his/her innocence to preserve the innocence of others.

Ehhh. In my opinion, while it's obvious that Beatrice's character is a lying liar who tries to martry herself for the family (in her way), I have trouble with the idea that this was Yasu's primary literary directive. I mean, she certainly portrays the family as victims, hiding any of their hypothetical complicity in her tales, and is generally sympathetic in portrayal. For example, Rosa and Maria's making up at the end of EP 2, and the whole "eagle in my heart" thing with Natsuhi was just Yasu's kind extrapolation of bad situations.

I've always heard the lyrics of Discode as Beatrice speaking to 1986 Ange :
"In the mansion that you must not tread upon
Because I’ll show you I love everything"
=
"Don't worry about what happened on Rokkenjima.
It'll make you sad."

That being said, it's pretty unavoidable that Legend and Turn must've taken at least SOME time to write, the letters had already been sent, and regardless of whether one believes the thing was to be a "fake murder mystery" or not, I don't think Yasu would've been aware of someone's murder plot, stood completely on the side, and wrote her mysteries to kinda MAYBE save that person from public guilt after the massacre.

[AuraTwilight]

Maybe if you want people not to know the truth you should stop writing damn books with it in there.

Bernkastel seems to imply that Battler was forced to put it there, like a geas he was obligated to uphold when he created a Gameboard for Ange.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Bernkastel seems to imply that Battler was forced to put it there, like a geas he was obligated to uphold when he created a Gameboard for Ange.

Well then maybe he shouldn'a done that.

[AuraTwilight]

Well maybe he couldn't because Meta-Battler is only a construct of Ange's imagination forced to cater to her desire for closure.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Anyway what I mean to say is that the book probably represents the real events of Rokkenjima as Battler recollected them. The fact that the book was sealed closed in a coffin and warded off in my opinion is a pretty good metaphor of a memory that has been hidden.

I think I may have blacked that out due to the fact that I went through EP8 only once, but did Meta-Ange actually steal the book from the coffin in the meta-chapel as well when she fought Beatrice?! Damn...okay, that would be my fault and in that case the book and Eva's diary are one and the same and your idea about Battler's idea behind sealing it is right.
Though I would say both our readings of riccordante il passato are right, they only steer in a slightly different direction. If the "protection" is completed by sealing something away or by continuing to create a diversion...the result is basically the same.

Originally Posted by Renal

Maybe if you want people not to know the truth you should stop writing damn books with it in there.

Though I would say while your idea is basically good and nice, that would only work if Hachijô Tôya was the only one writing about the truth. We know that "he"...well the persona Ikuko created is one of the most respected among the writers and a pretty high ranking member of the Witch Hunters, but there are some thousand more. From EP4 we know that they even held a convention in the US...and for a Japan based community to hold a convention in Japan, that has to be quite some group.

So the only chance he has is to keep creating diversions, which are regarded as more trustworthy than maybe another creation which tells the truth.
Hey, maybe that's exactly what happened with EP7...nobody liked the truth Bernkastel provided because it lacked elegance, style, substance, it was simple and plain murder.

Originally Posted by Kealym

Ehhh. In my opinion, while it's obvious that Beatrice's character is a lying liar who tries to martry herself for the family (in her way), I have trouble with the idea that this was Yasu's primary literary directive.

Well, she knew of the risk that she might have to sacrifice everyone if something went wrong. I think she did not trust the family enough to actually follow her little scheme, knowing what the adults were capable of. Ah well, she wasn't that wrong in her ideas as it seems.
She wanted to protect everyone...and in the end that might have included herself as well, at least those parts of her life that weren't Beatrice: George's lover, Jessica's friend, the child of Kinzô...and so on.

That being said, it's pretty unavoidable that Legend and Turn must've taken at least SOME time to write, the letters had already been sent, and regardless of whether one believes the thing was to be a "fake murder mystery" or not, I don't think Yasu would've been aware of someone's murder plot, stood completely on the side, and wrote her mysteries to kinda MAYBE save that person from public guilt after the massacre.

Because we never see the actual length of those letters, we can only assume how they were created.
But it's said they each fit into one winebottle, they were written in diary style and at first it was actually suspected they were written during those 2 days. So it should be possible that they are not that long.

In EP4 Ôtsuki and Ange said that it was doubtable that they were written in the midth of a murder incident and a typhoon. They never said it was impossible to have written them and apart from choice of words and the forged signature there seemed to be not much to doubt about Maria being the culprit...so it probably only described scenes she could see or at least know about.

Maybe it really just pictured the outlines and some thoughts about the incident...ideas that Yasu wanted the readers to get.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by haguruma

I think I may have blacked that out due to the fact that I went through EP8 only once, but did Meta-Ange actually steal the book from the coffin in the meta-chapel as well when she fought Beatrice?! Damn...okay, that would be my fault and in that case the book and Eva's diary are one and the same and your idea about Battler's idea behind sealing it is right.

Hmmm I have reread the parts in EP8 to double check and the book Ange takes is definitely from the chapel, she and Beatrice fight in the chapel and that's the same book Battler forbade her to open at the beginning of EP8

however after checking I noticed that the word "coffin" isn't mentioned but rather "altar".

so maybe it's not the same book that he placed in Beatrice's coffin in EP7? It must be said, however, that in EP7 the coffin was on the chapel's altar, and inside the coffin was the book. In Ep8 there's no mention of a coffin and the book is directly on the altar. Well I'm not sure myself anymore, but well coffin apart the two books are in the very same position. And if they are two different things I don't get what happened to the first and where the second comes from.

Anyway the fact that there's a book that Battler sealed and didn't want anyone to open (Ange included) and which turned out to be the meta counterpart of Eva's diary is well stated.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

so maybe it's not the same book that he placed in Beatrice's coffin in EP7? It must be said, however, that in EP7 the coffin was on the chapel's altar, and inside the coffin was the book. In Ep8 there's no mention of a coffin and the book is directly on the altar. Well I'm not sure myself anymore, but well coffin apart the two books are in the very same position. And if they are two different things I don't get what happened to the first and where the second comes from.

Anyway the fact that there's a book that Battler sealed and didn't want anyone to open (Ange included) and which turned out to be the meta counterpart of Eva's diary is well stated.

In the beginning of EP8, Battler handed Ange a key and later told her that the key was to be used when she was ready; and ready was most certainly after he presented to her his game. We found out later the key was to the book that he had put in the chapel.

Ange was not satisfied with what Battler showed her and declared him a liar and wanted to read the book before Battler thought was wise, which is why he ended up fighting against Ange, Eva and Erika.


I'm noticing a lot of inaccuracies in recent posts... you guys DO remember EP8, right? Or, maybe some of you haven't played it yet but are on this board... ?

[Kealym]

Originally Posted by haguruma

Well, she knew of the risk that she might have to sacrifice everyone if something went wrong. I think she did not trust the family enough to actually follow her little scheme, knowing what the adults were capable of. Ah well, she wasn't that wrong in her ideas as it seems.
She wanted to protect everyone...and in the end that might have included herself as well, at least those parts of her life that weren't Beatrice: George's lover, Jessica's friend, the child of Kinzô...and so on.

Because we never see the actual length of those letters, we can only assume how they were created.
But it's said they each fit into one winebottle, they were written in diary style and at first it was actually suspected they were written during those 2 days. So it should be possible that they are not that long.

In EP4 Ôtsuki and Ange said that it was doubtable that they were written in the midth of a murder incident and a typhoon. They never said it was impossible to have written them and apart from choice of words and the forged signature there seemed to be not much to doubt about Maria being the culprit...so it probably only described scenes she could see or at least know about.

Maybe it really just pictured the outlines and some thoughts about the incident...ideas that Yasu wanted the readers to get.

Spoiler for More rant-y than constructive:

Alot of things about the bottle messages and the forgeries is left in the air, for US. And while the thought of them being written during the conference is, well, possible (I can't deny that), and explains Ange's absence, it's a difficult pill to swallow. While they indeed fit in the bottle, the number of pages is described as "massive", and unless Yasu just shot everyone in teh face right off the boat, when would they have written this between their (potentially double?) servant duty, planning an elaborate (possibly fake?) murder mystery, and sleeping?

If anyone besides Yasu was the culprit, and sent her on a mad, insomia writing spree, it wouldn't have happened, most logically, until the family conference that evening, so we're looking at either an EP3 or EP7-Tea-Party scenario, though Yasu and Battler survive and I'm just like-

Battler : Um, what're you doing?
Yasu : Oh I'm just, you know, writing a loose fictionalization of the last 18 hours.
Battler : Say ... what?

And now I've confused myself. Off to dinner. >_<

[AuraTwilight]

Devil's Advocate Fuck You Theory: Yasu survived the Rokkenjima incident, wrote the message bottles, tossed them into the water, and committed suicide.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Kealym

Alot of things about the bottle messages and the forgeries is left in the air, for US. And while the thought of them being written during the conference is, well, possible (I can't deny that), and explains Ange's absence, it's a difficult pill to swallow. While they indeed fit in the bottle, the number of pages is described as "massive", and unless Yasu just shot everyone in teh face right off the boat, when would they have written this between their (potentially double?) servant duty, planning an elaborate (possibly fake?) murder mystery, and sleeping?

Beatrice admitted to have written EP1-2 as planning for her running the murders that night in EP8. This was near the end when she was apologizing to Ange for causing all that ruckus. Basically she said if she hadn't done that then there wouldn't be all of 'this' (being the fuss that everyone was making about the diary and how they wanted to know the Truth, etc.) To which Ange said: "Yes, you should be sorry." 8)

(Edit: Sorry, I mean, her writing EP1-2 as a plan probably meant that she wrote them with enough time before the conference...)

And then Ange apologized too for some other things, etc, etc.

Although it would've been hilarious if it happened the way AuraTwilight said...


Technically, it's really unknown what happened in real life. I would tend to think that her plan went haywire nearly right away and the only thing that succeeded was the bomb. And only partially at that as Eva survived. Real life tends to never work out the way you planned...

I know that Tooya, although being able to recover Battler's previous memories, said that he never recovered the memories of what happened that day. And I think he disqualified himself from reading Eva's diary too. But he probably realized enough, even by EP3, to realize that Eva surviving meant the plan went off its tracks?

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Devil's Advocate Fuck You Theory: Yasu survived the Rokkenjima incident, wrote the message bottles, tossed them into the water, and committed suicide.

If it's at least possible that it was written during the conference it could have been written in the two days preceding the conference. Yasu being the declared head of the house for at least everyone on the island except maybe Gohda and Jessica, s/he should have had enough free time at hand.
Therefore I propose:
The message bottles were written two days before the incident, right after Battler had called.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

In the beginning of EP8, Battler handed Ange a key and later told her that the key was to be used when she was ready; and ready was most certainly after he presented to her his game. We found out later the key was to the book that he had put in the chapel.

Ange was not satisfied with what Battler showed her and declared him a liar and wanted to read the book before Battler thought was wise, which is why he ended up fighting against Ange, Eva and Erika.


I'm noticing a lot of inaccuracies in recent posts... you guys DO remember EP8, right? Or, maybe some of you haven't played it yet but are on this board... ?

Actually from the beginning Battler said that the key's purpose was for Ange to make a choice. At the end of EP8 we see that the two choices are represented by two doors and Ange is supposed to use the key on one of the two doors.

And this happens after Ange already opened the book. If the key's purpose was to open the book at the end of Battler's story, then there wouldn't be any other purpose for this key after the fact.

But that's not what we see, because Ange actually needs the key to open the two doors and therefore that's what the key was really for.

The fact that the key also opens the book is merely a contingency. And even so it was clearly stated that even with the key Ange could have never opened the book without the Game Master's consent because it was warded off.

Are you sure it isn't you that misinterpreted the facts? Well it might be me, but in that case can you quote me the part that makes clear that Battler wanted Ange to read the book at the end rather than never allow her to read that at all?

[AuraTwilight]

If it's at least possible that it was written during the conference it could have been written in the two days preceding the conference. Yasu being the declared head of the house for at least everyone on the island except maybe Gohda and Jessica, s/he should have had enough free time at hand.

Krauss and Natsuhi do not know Yasu's true identity either.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

And this happens after Ange already opened the book. If the key's purpose was to open the book at the end of Battler's story, then there wouldn't be any other purpose for this key after the fact.

But that's not what we see, because Ange actually needs the key to open the two doors and therefore that's what the key was really for.

The fact that the key also opens the book is merely a contingency. And even so it was clearly stated that even with the key Ange could have never opened the book without the Game Master's consent because it was warded off.

Are you sure it isn't you that misinterpreted the facts? Well it might be me, but in that case can you quote me the part that makes clear that Battler wanted Ange to read the book at the end rather than never allow her to read that at all?

Yah, I remember that there was this part where Ange was screaming her head off, denying what everyone was telling her. She accused Battler of wanting to actually never show her the book by tricking her with the false game. But someone tried to interject, Beatrice perhaps to try and tell her that Battler wanted her to be able to read the book but Ange wasn't having any of that.

So, in the end Ange took by force that which she was meant to have. Only Battler knew it would destroy her since she didn't get the message that he had for her first. Ange ended up doing it in reverse order. (I was pretty fine with Ange dying... I mean she was being such a whiny bitch at that point... I think Ryukishi's characertization was off here. 8) And if you think about it, it's almost like Tooya is character assassinating his own sister here.... yeesh. )

I can look up that part of the story where she's screaming her head off if you want. I really hated that part.... 8) But it comes down to if you believe Battler and everyone else was REALLY trying to trick Ange and be secret assholes or if you believe when they tried to convince Ange to calm down that they were trying to be honest.


Anyways, I do NOT remember the key being used for the door, but I'm not 100% sure about that. I also do not remember anywhere saying that the key had a dual purpose or that it's main purpose was for the door. It was said it was for a choice, of course... but the way I remember it is that it's the choice to open the book or not.

This is very clearly its primary purpose. Remember the scene where they were telling Ange that she had the book in one reality, but the key in the other reality... and she needed both to unlock the book? This is its primary purpose and that's the choice that Battler gave.

[Jan-Poo]

Ange definitely uses the key to open the door

これが、私の答えよ。」@
;＜縁寿
br
　私は選んだ答えの扉の元へ行く。@
se1v 31,50
　そして黄金の鍵を、鍵穴に挿し、……みんなに振り返る。\

As for the the scene you mentioned I remember that but I don't remember Beatrice telling Ange that Battler would let her open the book, but simply that Battler would tell her the truth.

Despite what Beatrice said however Battler always said that there was something more important than the truth and that "the truth you are looking for doesn't exist, the inside of the catbox is empty".

１９８６年の真実など存在しない。@猫箱の中は虚無だ。@……お前は、ありもしないものを求め てる

Given this sentence I seriously doubt he wanted to tell her truth. He flat out denied the existence of any truth.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

As for the the scene you mentioned I remember that but I don't remember Beatrice telling Ange that Battler would let her open the book, but simply that Battler would tell her the truth.

It might have been one of those sentences that trailed off? I think Ange interrupted and the sentence was something like "Even Battler wanted to..." etc. Also, a few lines after this, after Ange insisted that she had to read the diary, Eva warned her that it was something like her ramblings; i.e. she wrote it with some pretty evil thoughts during a bad time.

Maybe you can find this scene quicker than I... Hmm.. it sure is handy being able to extract all the text.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Despite what Beatrice said however Battler always said that there was something more important than the truth and that "the truth you are looking for doesn't exist, the inside of the catbox is empty".

Given this sentence I seriously doubt he wanted to tell her truth. He flat out denied the existence of any truth.

Well, given that sentence, it sounds like he thinks there is no truth. That's very different than knowing the truth and not telling. I just think Battler doesn't know the truth; so it's not something for him to give. I mean, unless you think they are point-blank lying to Ange, all the way even to the end.

On the side here:
It's interesting the only 'good' person who wants Ange to know the truth is Eva-Beatrice, who worked to get her to read the diary. This is why I brought up Eva's line above; if the diary is full of crazy ramblings, yet in red it's said it contains The Truth(tm)... how can this be? The only solution I can think of is that it contains both the truth AND crazy ramblings about it. Sorta like how you can observe that say, someone lied and that is The Truth. But, you can go on to make accusations that are incorrect; like "he lied because of this reason." And that ends up being patently false.

Sorta like how Eva may have observed Kyrie and Rudolf killing some of the people; for whatever reason. And so she may have theorized that Kyrie and Rudolf were the REAL culprits, which we know to be false now. So in that you have the truth mixed up with a lie, essentially.


Another side:
If we think for a second, what exactly is the 'Truth' that we're talking about here? Because if the truth is who did it, apparently that's Yasu, of which Eva's diary probably contains nothing. If this is the Truth that Ange sought, then Battler's right... it doesn't contain THAT truth. And that there's another more important truth that exists outside of the diary....

I saw a lot of 'the Truth!' bandied about in EP8 without a real defnition of the question. Sorta saying like, we want the answer to Life, the Universe and Everything... yes, but what's the question to begin with?

One more thing:
Battler may or may not have known the truth, but did Tooya? Do you remember if he read the diary or not?