Madoka Magica - Episode 06 Discussion / Poll

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Narrative roles change all the time, so all this is subject to change. But this is what I'm seeing right now.

I can agree with that, heh. I, too, think Homura has possibly moved from antagonist to something else at this time.

Originally Posted by Mentar

I'd consider it amazingly blue-eyed to conclude based on Kyubey's explanation for devouring the Grief Seed that he'd suddenly run this whole racket for his own survival. It's also absolutely not what he's pitching when he's out hunting naive children for contracts.

Except, as Decagon pointed out earlier, Kyube is not doing this for his own survival. He's doing it so the witches can't be reborn. So, he's doing it for Humanity's survival. I only put up the "doing it for his survival" aspect because I was looking for reasons as to why he was doing this. Honestly, if you're gonna cling to the evil theme, you should have stuck with believing he was doing it to feed himself. At least then you could have played up the greed angle.

Again, the question of "good" or "evil" is inherently linked to the moral-ethical set of beliefs of the beholder. THIS is the reason why one guy's mass murderer (WTC destruction) is another guy's martyr. But in THIS story, the roles are very clear: The viewer is supposed to be on the side of the humans, and from THIS perspective, QB is _evil_, plain and simple. If on the other hand you're fine with "anything goes", then suddenly the devil itself becomes a good man, because he's diligently doing what his role - his nature - tells him to do. Makes any attempt of moral classification pointless.

Ah, pushing the terrorist angle again, eh? Well, here's another way your reasoning falls apart. If you wanted to accept Kyube as a terrorist, then he's a terrorist to... the witches. He's like Osama, raising up soldiers to go against the great Satan, except the Great Satan are witches.

Which means... you're on the side of the witches, eh? You want to seem them continue to kill humans?

So yeah, to us, Kyube is a savior. To the witches, he's Osama Bin Laden.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by AvatarST

Yeah, we'll certainly have more revelations. But I still don't believe he needs to be evil in order to be an antagonist, nor him being a non-evil antagonist would stop us the viewers from taking Madoka's side.

You're not getting my point. He isn't evil in order to be an antagonist, he is evil BECAUSE OF WHAT HE'S DOING. Luring naive kids into a contract commitment while purposely withholding the downsides from them is EVIL. The whole "fight against witches" meme reminds me strongly of mafia thugs demanding protection money from businesses. Just that the thugs you pay to be protected from originate from the same source you're paying. Wanna bet that QB's racket will prove to _create_ witches, too? Also, stalking hesitating girls and consciously pushing them into situations that would compel them to contract is ugly, too.

This is what we KNOW. If someone would do a tenth of that in real life for me, I'd kick his ass all over the place away from me, because as a grown-up with a bit of life experience I'd come to the conclusion "entirely untrustworthy, very fishy, dangerous". Would you buy an insurance from someone who does what he does, the way he does it?

[AvatarST]

So he's done some extremely questionable things, he's manipulative and deceitful and he's not trustworthy. He's also dangerous. That's fine. We agree there.

I still want to know his motivations before calling him evil. I guess it's a matter of the definition of the word "evil".

[Flower]

Admittedly to me at the moment it seems to me that QB's actions spring from amorality ... but no doubt things will become much clearer by the end of the season.

Thus far there have quite a few unexpected surprises, so I would not put it past the animators to totally turn our current impressions and assessments on our heads when all is said and done.

[Sageblink]

From the informations given on this episode, i'm worried about who the final big witch could be.

[estdesoda]

Originally Posted by AvatarST

So he's done some extremely questionable things, he's manipulative and deceitful and he's not trustworthy. He's also dangerous. That's fine. We agree there.

I still want to know his motivations before calling him evil. I guess it's a matter of the definition of the word "evil".

I don't trust Kyube AT ALL. Still, even now there are ways in which Kyube could be turned out to be good.

For example, say that what Kyube is doing is to trick and enslave a few number of girls for the sake of safety of humankind, and this for some reason turns out to be the most efficient way of eliminating witches and protect human; is Kyube evil, then?

But he indeed is at best amoral. and I want to BARBUQUE him oh you son of a xxxxx！！！！！これは魔法少女ですか？はい、ゾンビです！！！！

[justsomeguy]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

What Mentar is doing is presenting a false dichotomy, a logical fallacy. He's trying to present only two options: that Kyube is good, or that he is evil. And if he can rule out the former, than he can force you to believe the latter.

The reason why that reasoning doesn't work, is because there are more choices than just good and evil. Quite a few of us have been calling him amoral.

This is not quite correct. The word "amoral" has two possible meanings: 1) morality is irrelevant to the topic, or 2) an individual has no sense of morals. In other words, "amoral" is a personality type, and saying that a person is amoral does not mean they cannot be ranked on a good-to-evil scale (though the scale itself slides based on circumstances; in a situation where the only possible choices can both be described as "evil," than the "lesser evil" is the "good" choice).

Those of you arguing that QB is "amoral" are actually arguing that his motivation of doing what he needs to do to survive is cannot be be labeled good nor evil, which is correct since all animals kill or steal to survive.

From the perspective of the human audience, his methods, especially his dishonesty in not telling the whole story at the start and his manipulation and involvement of innocent little girls, make him "evil."

The entire argument seems to based on confusion surrounding QB's motivations and his methods, both of which can be judged separately. Until we understand the choices that he faced before doing what he did in the story, the good-evil scale cannot be applied from a non-human perspective.

[Flower]

Originally Posted by justsomeguy

This is not quite correct. The word "amoral" has two possible meanings: 1) morality is irrelevant to the topic, or 2) an individual has no sense of morals. In other words, "amoral" is a personality type, and saying that a person is amoral does not mean they cannot be ranked on a good-to-evil scale (though the scale itself slides based on circumstances; in a situation where the only possible choices can both be described as "evil," than the "lesser evil" is the "good" choice).

Those of you arguing that QB is "amoral" are actually arguing that his motivation of doing what he needs to do to survive is cannot be be labeled good nor evil, which is correct since all animals kill or steal to survive.

From the perspective of the human audience, his methods, especially his dishonesty in not telling the whole story at the start and his manipulation and involvement of innocent little girls, make him "evil."

The entire argument seems to based on confusion surrounding QB's motivations and his methods, both of which can be judged separately. Until we understand the choices that he faced before doing what he did in the story, the good-evil scale cannot be applied from a non-human perspective.

A good clarification imo.

What you say is true in my case of using the word amoral ... to me it does indeed seem atm that he is acting from motivations of survival, like an animal (albeit it seems a very cunning and dangerous animal).

However a lot still feels unclear in the sense of having "too little information", and this anime series thus far seems to be doing a very effective job of misdirection by leaking out teensy hints bit by bit in a way that could easily be interpreted in "strong ways". I can easily see how people would already be regarding him as outrightly evil!

But again, things will undoubtedly be clearer by the end of the season.

[Mentar]

It's terrible. Even when you have someone on your Ignore list (like I have Kaijo) - as much as it helps - you're not safe from his nonsense when someone else quotes him. It's really regrettable that the boards don't have the functionality to filter quotes aswell.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

What Mentar is doing is presenting a false dichotomy, a logical fallacy. He's trying to present only two options: that Kyube is good, or that he is evil. And if he can rule out the former, than he can force you to believe the latter.

Of course - as usual for him - this is a complete fabricated falsehood. Not once I have argued that Kyubey is "not good, therefore he must be evil". Not ONCE, and easily rechecked - the thread is still short. Whe he would peddle this BS is beyond me, but it reconfirms my decision to blacklist him.

The point which I've consistently been making is this: It's QB's actions which are evil. Directly. You cannot deceive and lure naive kids into a contract like this WITHOUT being evil, if you take the position which you're supposed to take: Sympathetic to Madoka and the other human girls. Just like you are evil (at least in my eyes) when you beat your mother, rape your sister or set your neighbor's house on fire. It's the ACTION which defines it. You don't need to sit back and cackle evilly and do the "ohboy, I'm bad" dance. QB doesn't flinch, and it's quite possible - even likely - that he doesn't even realize that he's doing anything wrong (which would constitute "amoral"). But it IS wrong. The way I see it, his deeds lead to death and suffering, for his own private gain. Which is evil. Usually, when you're amoral, your deeds are evil.

I'd kindly ask any participant of his board not to quote Kaijo anymore where he makes any references to me (or to just delete them pre-quote). Then he can spread whatever he wants without requiring me to acknowledge it. Thank you!

[Sageblink]

Oh Mentar... I knew it : you are Kyubey !!

[AvatarST]

Originally Posted by Mentar

The point which I've consistently been making is this: It's QB's actions which are evil. Directly. You cannot deceive and lure naive kids into a contract like this WITHOUT being evil, if you take the position which you're supposed to take: Sympathetic to Madoka and the other human girls. Just like you are evil (at least in my eyes) when you beat your mother, rape your sister or set your neighbor's house on fire. It's the ACTION which defines it. You don't need to sit back and cackle evilly and do the "ohboy, I'm bad" dance. QB doesn't flinch, and it's quite possible - even likely - that he doesn't even realize that he's doing anything wrong (which would constitute "amoral"). But it IS wrong. The way I see it, his deeds lead to death and suffering, for his own private gain. Which is evil. Usually, when you're amoral, your deeds are evil.

See, I don't want to get annoying, but we don't know this. At this point it's possible he's doing it for selfish reasons, or he's a tool with no will of his own, used by some higher power, or he actually has a good reason. His methods might be disgusting but we don't know if his motivation is evil or not. That's the only point I'm trying to make.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by AvatarST

See, I don't want to get annoying, but we don't know this. At this point it's possible he's doing it for selfish reasons, or he's a tool with no will of his own, used by some higher power, or he actually has a good reason. His methods might be disgusting but we don't know if his motivation is evil or not. That's the only point I'm trying to make.

I see your point, but note that I prepended "The way I see it". I was sure after ep2 that QB had his hands in a vicious racket, and that the whole MG circus was a giant pyramid scheme. This episode gave me a big piece of evidence for my suspicion.

What we have here is that his activities are casting young girls into misery and death (ask Mami or Homura, or look what the happy-positive Sayaka is gradually turning into in ep6). And what is it that QB is devouring delightfully? Extra-black Grief Seeds - he's feasting on misery, and his MG slaves are technically _forced_ by the system to provide that to him. Together with the clear Faust reference, it would indicate to me that QB is a devil/demon, and that sounds like a delicious dish for them.

Well, I'm not demanding that everyone needs to share this conclusion yet (hence "the way I see it"). But it never ceases to amaze me how many clues people shrug off. We'll certainly get even more in the next eps, since Urobuchi Gen said that after this ep, the stops are being pulled.

[TheDarkness]

I just finished watching the raw and had a couple questions, my japanese is not the best. Did Sayaka lose her memory at the end? Also, is it confirmed that Homerun-chan is from the future? Could someone explain to me what Kyubey said in his long dialogue at the end? I am sorry if this has already been touched upon.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by justsomeguy

This is not quite correct. The word "amoral" has two possible meanings: 1) morality is irrelevant to the topic, or 2) an individual has no sense of morals. In other words, "amoral" is a personality type, and saying that a person is amoral does not mean they cannot be ranked on a good-to-evil scale (though the scale itself slides based on circumstances; in a situation where the only possible choices can both be described as "evil," than the "lesser evil" is the "good" choice).

Those of you arguing that QB is "amoral" are actually arguing that his motivation of doing what he needs to do to survive is cannot be be labeled good nor evil, which is correct since all animals kill or steal to survive.

This is exactly it. His motivation in all of this is key for determining whether or not he is good or evil. We're saying that, at best, he's amoral, because we don't know everything. His actions and motivation aren't currently subject to our morality; he has no sense of morals. He just does what needs to be done to fight witches. We need more evidence to judge.

That's in direct contrast to those who have knee-jerked to a judgment before they had all the facts.

From the perspective of the human audience, his methods, especially his dishonesty in not telling the whole story at the start and his manipulation and involvement of innocent little girls, make him "evil."

Do you tell everyone everything? Especially when you know they'll just get upset or not understand? Dishonesty is directly lying. Kyube may have withheld some information, but in the long run, that information wasn't important to know. So, he hasn't lied, just hasn't told some things which he knew would cause people to get emotional and upset.

Until we understand the choices that he faced before doing what he did in the story, the good-evil scale cannot be applied from a non-human perspective.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Mentar

It's terrible. Even when you have someone on your Ignore list (like I have Kaijo) - as much as it helps - you're not safe from his nonsense when someone else quotes him. It's really regrettable that the boards don't have the functionality to filter quotes aswell.

Mentar, stop whinging; it doesn't suit you. There are other people in this world and not all of them will think like you. Learning to deal with them is part of learning to deal with people in general.

Of course - as usual for him - this is a complete fabricated falsehood. Not once I have argued that Kyubey is "not good, therefore he must be evil".

And if you do that with QB, and still believe that he's doing this to protect the world and its people from harm, and to fight for love and justice...

There, right there. Perhaps you weren't aware of how your words came across, but that's how everyone else here saw it. You're trying to belittle the idea that he can be anything but evil, but saying, "Oh SURE he's good. *snort* He can't possibly be good when you consider all these other things, so the only conclusion left to draw is that he is evil."

Not ONCE, and easily rechecked - the thread is still short. Whe he would peddle this BS is beyond me, but it reconfirms my decision to blacklist him.

As long as you're on this board, you'll run into people like me, and you can't get away. If you need some tips in how to deal with them, let me know. Until then, I'm so very sorry you feel the need to run from the issues.

The point which I've consistently been making is this: It's QB's actions which are evil. Directly. You cannot deceive and lure naive kids into a contract like this WITHOUT being evil, if you take the position which you're supposed to take: Sympathetic to Madoka and the other human girls. Just like you are evil (at least in my eyes) when you beat your mother, rape your sister or set your neighbor's house on fire. It's the ACTION which defines it. You don't need to sit back and cackle evilly and do the "ohboy, I'm bad" dance. QB doesn't flinch, and it's quite possible - even likely - that he doesn't even realize that he's doing anything wrong (which would constitute "amoral"). But it IS wrong. The way I see it, his deeds lead to death and suffering, for his own private gain. Which is evil. Usually, when you're amoral, your deeds are evil.

You're actually getting somewhere here, but sadly, you have to yet show how his actions are evil. Let's recap, shall we?

Kyube makes magical girls to fight witches, which are preying upon humans. At worst, he withholds some information, but it isn't anything which would affect the outcome. As as many of us have done here (not telling someone something because it will just upset them), this is not an inherently bad thing to do. A lot of people can't handle the truth.

If you think this is bad, then you need to present another way. Because so far, you have nothing. His actions are to grant wishes and make magical girls. How you get evil out of that, is beyond me and quite a few others here.

I'd kindly ask any participant of his board not to quote Kaijo anymore where he makes any references to me (or to just delete them pre-quote). Then he can spread whatever he wants without requiring me to acknowledge it. Thank you!

See, this is why ignoring makes you vulnerable. Because I can pick apart your arguments, and everyone else can see where you went wrong. But because you can't see this, you essentially get further and further disconnected from where everyone else is. But if you really want to ignore me, then do so. It just involves not responding. If you can't manage that, then your ignore list is useless.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: you are welcome to believe he's evil and a douchebag if you like. Just acknowledge that there is no evidence yet. If there comes such a time as to have evidence that there is, I'll gladly join the "he's evil" side.

But he hasn't raped anyone. He hasn't killed anyone (although dependent upon point of view; if you're technically dead, but you can do anything you could normally do while you were alive, are you really dead? What does the difference matter?). You keep trying to associate him with killers, rapists, and terrorists, which is simply bad hyperbole.

Someone needs to deal with these witches. Maybe what Kyube is doing isn't exactly clean or above board, but he gives a choice, and currently, his method is the only one that works. War is a very dirty business, but sometimes you have to do some things to protect your friends, family, countrymen and fellow humans. At least Kyube is giving us an option.

And again, if it's revealed that he is deliberately doing this to feed on despair or something, then I'll change my mind. But so far, he has simply reacted to what other people did. He hasn't instigated anything.

[AvatarST]

Originally Posted by Mentar

I see your point, but note that I prepended "The way I see it". I was sure after ep2 that QB had his hands in a vicious racket, and that the whole MG circus was a giant pyramid scheme. This episode gave me a big piece of evidence for my suspicion.

What we have here is that his activities are casting young girls into misery and death (ask Mami or Homura, or look what the happy-positive Sayaka is gradually turning into in ep6). And what is it that QB is devouring delightfully? Extra-black Grief Seeds - he's feasting on misery, and his MG slaves are technically _forced_ by the system to provide that to him. Together with the clear Faust reference, it would indicate to me that QB is a devil/demon, and that sounds like a delicious dish for them.

Well, I'm not demanding that everyone needs to share this conclusion yet (hence "the way I see it"). But it never ceases to amaze me how many clues people shrug off. We'll certainly get even more in the next eps, since Urobuchi Gen said that after this ep, the stops are being pulled.

The Faust references were something that I had forgotten to factor into the equation because I haven't read it, and only informed myself when I saw the ties to this show. In that case that's good supporting evidence that he might have evil motivations, since foreshadowing is always there for a reason.

[Triple_R]

Well, this episode makes some pretty important revelations, from what I could gather from the raw, and from what I've gathered from this thread so far.

Now, I'm going to want to watch the sub before I make a more detailed take on this episode, and on the issues and fan discussions that it touches on, but I will say now that, in fairness to the "Kyubey is evil" side, this episode basically confirms that he is engaged in serious unethical behavior.

Which is to say that...

Spoiler for Madoka Episode 6 spoiler:

He is signing up teenage girls to become magical girls while hiding a key downside to the deal from them, a downside that goes beyond the basic danger aspect of the magical girl profession. This is a deceptive "bad faith" negotiation ploy, and the unethical nature thereof is compounded by the fact that this is a negotiation with teenage girls who can't be reasonably expected to grill Kyubey on all the aspects of being a magical girl before signing up for it.

Since we are dealing with lives here, and not simply dollars and cents, I can understand and respect how someone would call this "evil" and not simply "unethical".

However, I want to see the subs for this before I consider a different personal view on Kyubey, and before I get into greater detail than this.

I'll have more to write after I see the sub.

[AvatarST]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Kyube makes magical girls to fight witches, which are preying upon humans. At worst, he withholds some information, but it isn't anything which would affect the outcome. As as many of us have done here (not telling someone something because it will just upset them), this is not an inherently bad thing to do. A lot of people can't handle the truth.

This is not true. The information he withholds would mean that the contracts would most likely not be perfected. It's not like the sole difference is that "they'd get upset"; he's making contract with the girls without clearly telling them what they're getting into. While he's not used coercion, and while I am unsure if it's "evil" yet, I don't see how this isn't deceit.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by AvatarST

This is not true. The information he withholds would mean that the contracts would most likely not be perfected. It's not like the sole difference is that "they'd get upset"; he's making contract with the girls without clearly telling them what they're getting into. While he's not used coercion, and while I can't quite call it "evil" yet, I don't see how this isn't deceit.

What do you mean, not perfected? What is the information that changes the nature? Still waiting on subs myself, because last time I listened to what people said about the episode, it turned out to be not quite true.

Edit: and to be clear, we (and the girls) knew that becoming a magical girl meant you'd fight witches as long as you lived. It didn't seem to be something you could get out of (although we often raised the point about what would happen if a girl simply decided to stop fighting; what forces her?). In return, you get a wish granted and magical powers. Some might not make that bargain, but some would. To me, it comes down to personal choice.

[Mentar]

Thanks for sending me to sleep feeling quite a bit less weird, Triple R. I've got to admit that having to struggle hard to defend a position which my core feels like it should be the DEFAULT rather than the exception gets strangely unsettling after a while ^_^;

One side revelation I had on the third rewatch... it's obvious that Kyoko - who is supposed to be quite senior - didn't know anything about the Soul Gem proximity issue. Homura on the other hand clearly knew, and acted instantly. So it's safe to assume that Homura is very well-versed in the technicalities of the MG contract.

WHY DIDN'T SHE USE HER KNOWLEDGE TO DISSUADE MADOKA AND SAYAKA?

Does she have the Senjogahara disease? (Very smart and capable, but tremendous deficits on the social dealings side) Or is there something preventing her?

Any plausible explanations welcome, I couldn't come up with any so far...

[justsomeguy]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Do you tell everyone everything? Especially when you know they'll just get upset or not understand? Dishonesty is directly lying. Kyube may have withheld some information, but in the long run, that information wasn't important to know. So, he hasn't lied, just hasn't told some things which he knew would cause people to get emotional and upset.

I disagree on this point. Withholding information that may cause people to make different decisions is dishonesty, especially when dealing with children who are naive and cannot think of the things that are not being openly discussed. Dealing with children in this scenario is different than a salesman talking with an adult potential customer who has the understanding that there are potential negatives not being openly discussed and the mental faculty to try to think of them. QB pushing children to make (flawed, based on incomplete or inaccurate information) decisions that may lead to their deaths is evil, regardless of whether he gains anything or not. How evil his actions are would depend on what other choices he had and what the consequences of those would have been.

While Mentar's speculation that QB is an evil to the core puppetmaster manipulating everything solely for his own gain and nothing else is probably the most likely scenario, I have to say that would actually be rather unsatisfying. I would much prefer a scenario where QB is admittedly selfish and evil, but an imperfect solution against an even greater evil, and that the only logical choice is to deal with QB and try to live, or face outright destruction without a chance.