Shakugan no Shana II - Episode 13 Discussion / Poll

[Irenicus]

Originally Posted by Master Chibi

I think you people are pushing waaaaaaaaaaay too hard on your dislike for this episode.

*cough*

Originally Posted by Me

But I digress, and I think I'm coming out as more disappointed than I actually am,

And "you people" are two or three people so far in this thread. Not that many IMO.

I'm not that disappointed. I'm just displeased by the discrepancy between all the awesomeness and horror (like you said, Yuuji's scream, among other things) and how easy and rushed it just ends.

As long as the plot picks up from now on instead of lapsing back into love-triangle mode then I'm fine with the show pretty much.

[Master Chibi]

You hush with your discrepancies.

Pheles is scary plus she has a big rack.

Yay.

Man, watching that part with Oga being burned again, god they did that part soooooooooooooo good, I'm really surprised.

[cnnydz]

Originally Posted by Irenicus

For another, the show itself -- the characters' reactions, the background music, the choreography, the foreshadowing -- all point towards Pheles being the baddest badass Tomogara in the series yet. Now, there are many shows that give out deceptive impressions, and there are cases where they work excellently (Ghost Hound's first impressions of the Toudai psychologist character would be a good example), but this is not one of them. If they make me expect full-scale carnage, desperate heroes being pounded into dust, and all the fun that action series can bring in their full glory, then they better deliver it. Not everybody read the novels and know everything about Shakugan no Shana's plot points beforehand -- including probably a sizable part of the anime's fans.

just be patient, they just managed to control pheles for now, and she didn't say anything about giving up.
Wilhelmina was not scared, it was obvious that she didn't want to fight pheles, so she appears to be stressed

Spoiler for 1:

and i think this arc is more about reiji maigo rather than pheles

gintama 25, the best episode (kagura's VA is shana's VA)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6N5iu...eature=related

[teachopvutru]

Originally Posted by Tokkan

Wilhelmina doesn't want to fight Pheles. Not because she's powerful, but because she cares for her. That should be obvious from this episode.

I suppose now that it's pretty understandable about all the Yuri rumors floating around Wilhemnia x Pheles x Margery triangle relationship!

I myself am waiting for the download to finish and very excited to watch it. But damn, Shana has to start getting good again right on the last week of the semester =.=;;

[Freeter]

Forget Konoe, Yoshida's pouting, and all this other useless crap. I demand hot Yuji x Pheles action now.

*starts hunting for Pheles doujins*

[teachopvutru]

Btw, after seeing how some people get disappointed at Pheles's weakness, it managed to make me smile. The reason is that I always thought Pheles was harmless and never thought otherwise... I mean, look at the OP; it absolutely gave me no impression of her being dangerous of some kind, despite the series hinting as such.

[Kristen]

Originally Posted by holyman282

I absolutely loved this ep and I don't see what so many people have against it. The action was awesome and brilliantly choreographed, the story has now started to get interesting and that little ending teaser with Konoe whispering something as well as pheles was just so well done.



Umm there was a point to that fight, let me explain:
-Pheles wants to reclaim Johan so she's going to erase Yuji
-Shana fights Pheles because she doesn't want Yuji to be erased.
-Margery is trying to kill Yuji because she saw his silver flame
-Wilheminna is trying to stop pheles from fighting while protecting Yuji because he's special to shana. She's also protecting Pheles because they were friends, hence she tries to stop Margery.

I don't know about you but there was a point to the fighting..

See, that is all the motive to the fight. A point to the fight would be like the twins last season. Where stuff actually happens in a fight that advances the plot, other than needless carnage and begging. Like, they show the motive, how they act on it, the deciphering of the clues, etc. Since fights are mainly interesting for what comes between the blows, not the blows themselves. And this didn't have any.

No it wasn't. They've built up that speech pretty well. I mean in ep 12 they've alread foreshadowed Margery's sympathy for her little henchmens and merely built upon that in this ep with Tanaka's speech to Margery. Certainly it wasn't articulated properly, but that adds to the reality of the situation. Certainly i hope you weren't expecting Tanaka to produce an award winning speech while his friends are "dying" around him.

It's my opinion. I find it stupid how Tanaka doesn't realize that it's a Fuzetsu and everything will be fixed. I also think that the tears and stuff are fake. But, Satou's is more annoying. It reminds me of a Jyu'nichi speech in Da Capo in being forced and having no real persuation in my eyes.

If you are referring to the fighting scenes (which took half an ep) then yes it did finish in half an ep. What, did you expect this ep to be just one continuous battle? Then I would truly agree with you when you said that it had no point.

If you weren't talking about the fight scene, then I don't see how you can label things being fixed. I mean at the end of this ep, there were still more problems to be resolved then there were answers. So no it wasn't all fixed in half an episode.

If it was one continuous battle, it would be a lot worse, at least if it wasn't one that didn't have any plot other than relentless carnage. Puzzles, plot in action, etc. They were all missing. Heck, that twins battle S1 went on for 2 episodes or so, and it wasn't lacking.
And by fixed, I mean that there is no cliffhanger. Everything in the Fuzetsu is fixed, Pheles is under protection, etc. AKA, everything is back in order within half an episode. Sure, there are issues still needing resolving, but there's no intensity anymore. It's just everyday walk around and find answers.


I repeat that these are my opinions. I think that this entire episode was just stupid.

[holyman282]

I think it's gotten to a point where people are just trying to nitpick the bad things of this ep rather then focusing on the good. Also most of the negative comments people have made about this ep could be easily explained (and was in this ep or previous eps).

Take for example some of the reasons people were disappointed with this ep:

Problem 1: The combat scene was pointless.

Answer: Actually it wasn't and see my previous post to see why.

Problem 2: Things were fixed in half an ep.

Answer: No they weren't. The ending left us on more of a cliffhanger so i don't see how they fixed things in half an ep unless you are referring to the fight scene, which i think half an ep was enough.

Problem 3: Pheles was finished too quickly/she was too weak.

Answer: Yes because she hasn't been feeding off humans and relying solely on the reijo maigo. Not to mention she probably hasn't eaten even from the reijo maigo in a while, as well as she being weakened by the fight that forced her to seal Johan. If anything I thought she put up quite a fight considering the circumstances.

Problem 4: How did Shana and Wilhemma defeat pheles and Margery so quickly?

Answer: The answer was somwhat answered in the previous problem, cause as you know Pheles is weakened and Margery has lost her cool and hence can't assess a fight properly (never lose your cool). Not to mention that Shana isn't weak, i mean she's the flame haired red eyes, a famous flame haze known to be very powerful. I think people are underestimating Shana.

Problem 5: Why did Pheles and Margery abandon hunting down Yuji so fast?

Answer: Firstly Margery Daw has significantly softened since the incident with Yuri. I mean it's become obvious that she cares for satou and Tanaka. In other words, I doubt her obsession with Silver is as strong as it was a long time ago.

As for Pheles, well first of all, she's been defeated, not to mention she's very weak. Wilheminna is her friend so she'll listen to her. She said herself that the reijo maigo is broken as it's emitting silver flames, meaning she won't extract Johan untill that problem is resolved. It's not like Johan is going to go somewhere if she doesn't get him now... There are alot of reasons...

Problem 6: Yuji is still an idiot.

Answer: I personally don't think he's an idiot, but to the people who did, well you've been saying that several ep back. If you truly believe it so then I'll wager to conclude that you've basically accepted his idiocy and will overlook it. Otherwise you'll be constantly disappointed, in fact i'll wonder why you're still watching it.

These are just a few complaints, if you have anything else say it and i'm sure I can come up with a simple explanation.

[Irenicus]

Originally Posted by Master Chibi

You hush with your discrepancies.

Hai.

Originally Posted by cnnydz

just be patient

Since it seems to me that you know what's going to happen next (i.e. read the novels), I'll trust you on this one.

I presume there's some kind of rule that bans this type of spoiler (future events from source material)? Otherwise I'm really curious.

Although, just a little last words...

Originally Posted by holyman282

[long post - nibbed to save space]

I get all the explanations, my friend. The show didn't exactly try to hide those facts though IMO it did a terrible job of relaying them in a sufficiently convincing fashion. What I had a problem with weren't the dry facts of the events, but the impressions of what was going to happen, what actually happened, and the pacing of what happened. Though I look forward to what will happen as usual.

Moreover I never really had a problem with slice-of-life Shana Season 2 until it just dragged on and on and got boring. Actually I wouldn't have had a problem at all if the situations back then weren't so retarded and boring in and of themselves.

'is all.

[Sterling01]

Most of the Problems I have with the anime are just due to impatience
This Episode was much better then the ones before it.
Yuji's Screaming fit/losing control was one of the highlights
Also Pheles and Yuji need to have a PoE exchage scene (FSN Style)

@Irenicus: cnnydz knows all... fear him

[cnnydz]

i will add a few things to holy man's post

Originally Posted by holyman282

Problem 1: The combat scene was pointless.

Answer: Actually it wasn't and see my previous post to see why.

i think crissie was misusing the word pointless, i think what crissie meant was this fight is not necessary to drive the plot.
but this fight has to happen because pheles needs to appear, and she will try to kill yuji no matter what.

Originally Posted by holyman282

Problem 2: Things were fixed in half an ep.

Answer: No they weren't. The ending left us on more of a cliffhanger so i don't see how they fixed things in half an ep unless you are referring to the fight scene, which i think half an ep was enough.

Spoiler for lol i said too much:

this also answers the previous Q, that is y this fight is only half eps long, as it was not meant to be the end of the arc
it is to introduce pheles and get her and margery into a state where everyone can discuss the reiji maigo peacefully.

Originally Posted by holyman282

Problem 3: Pheles was finished too quickly/she was too weak.

Answer: Yes because she hasn't been feeding off humans and relying solely on the reijo maigo. Not to mention she probably hasn't eaten even from the reijo maigo in a while, as well as she being weakened by the fight that forced her to seal Johan. If anything I thought she put up quite a fight considering the circumstances.

Spoiler for n:

as i said before this arc is far from over so plz be patient,

Spoiler for d:

don't underestimate pheles' power

Originally Posted by holyman282

Problem 4: How did Shana and Wilhemma defeat pheles and Margery so quickly?

Answer: The answer was somwhat answered in the previous problem, cause as you know Pheles is weakened and Margery has lost her cool and hence can't assess a fight properly (never lose your cool). Not to mention that Shana isn't weak, i mean she's the flame haired red eyes, a famous flame haze known to be very powerful. I think people are underestimating Shana.

yes, enpatsu shakugan was known as the strongest Flame Haze.

Originally Posted by holyman282

Problem 5: Why did Pheles and Margery abandon hunting down Yuji so fast?

Answer: Firstly Margery Daw has significantly softened since the incident with Yuri. I mean it's become obvious that she cares for satou and Tanaka. In other words, I doubt her obsession with Silver is as strong as it was a long time ago.

As for Pheles, well first of all, she's been defeated, not to mention she's very weak. Wilheminna is her friend so she'll listen to her. She said herself that the reijo maigo is broken as it's emitting silver flames, meaning she won't extract Johan untill that problem is resolved. It's not like Johan is going to go somewhere if she doesn't get him now... There are alot of reasons...

it is unlikely yuji was silver himself, yuji is just related to silver, so killing yuji would actually destroy the only hope of finding silver. i think margery realised that and decided to not kill him

as for pheles,

Spoiler for h:

she never said she'd give up

Spoiler for g:

that woman is planning something i tell u

Originally Posted by holyman282

Problem 6: Yuji is still an idiot.

Answer: I personally don't think he's an idiot, but to the people who did, well you've been saying that several ep back. If you truly believe it so then I'll wager to conclude that you've basically accepted his idiocy and will overlook it. Otherwise you'll be constantly disappointed, in fact i'll wonder why you're still watching it.

yuji was just frightened,

Spoiler for j:

he will shine later on

so my point is plz finish this arc before make big assumptions

[cnnydz]

Originally Posted by Irenicus

I get all the explanations, my friend. The show didn't exactly try to hide those facts though IMO it did a terrible job of relaying them in a sufficiently convincing fashion. What I had a problem with weren't the dry facts of the events, but the impressions of what was going to happen, what actually happened, and the pacing of what happened. Though I look forward to what will happen as usual.

Moreover I never really had a problem with slice-of-life Shana Season 2 until it just dragged on and on and got boring. Actually I wouldn't have had a problem at all if the situations back then weren't so retarded and boring in and of themselves.

'is all.

haha the producers don't have enough material, so fillers has to happen. that is why it felt boring and dragged.

i think a 13 eps season starting with Seishuu Sai would fare much better

[Whitemoon648]

Originally Posted by cnnydz

haha the producers don't have enough material, so fillers has to happen. that is why it felt boring and dragged.

i think a 13 eps season starting with Seishuu Sai would fare much better

You seem to have read the novels , so i have a question for you.



Question:

Shana season 1 was 24 episode. Assuming Shana season 2 will be 20+ episode, do you think they will finish all of Shana novels and animate them all?

Or there are way many more novels that need to be animated .


Thanks alot in advance .

[Sterling01]

Shana 2 is already half done with Novel 12
Shana 1 covered the first 9 novels with changes If I'm not mistaken

So with what happens at the end of Novel 14 the second season might end there
or they'll might skip 15 and head straght into 16

I've only read 10-14 and 16

So this is just my speculation

[cnnydz]

Originally Posted by Whitemoon648

You seem to have read the novels , so i have a question for you.



Question:

Shana season 1 was 24 episode. Assuming Shana season 2 will be 20+ episode, do you think they will finish all of Shana novels and animate them all?

Or there are way many more novels that need to be animated .


Thanks alot in advance .

i think they will probably go as far as vol 14 in terms of main storyline, which lwould eft one vol from main story line not animated. but it will still be 3-4 eps short of 24 eps, so i guess they will use one of the side stories or make a original ending to fill the gaps. of course they can also dragged the whole thing on or make fillers.

[cnnydz]

Originally Posted by Sterling01

Shana 2 is already half done with Novel 12
Shana 1 covered the first 9 novels with changes If I'm not mistaken

So with what happens at the end of Novel 14 the second season might end there
or they'll might skip 15 and head straght into 16

I've only read 10-13 and 16

unlikely, as vol 14 is a better place to stop than vol 16. i wish JC staff would animated vol 10, it is a good story
it's just my speculation though

[Sterling01]

But....

Spoiler for :

Vol 16 is where Yuji REALLY Shines

[KholdStare]

I gave it a 9/10 but it seems like a lot of people loved this episode. I was quite disappointed at how weak Pheles is, but the thing I really like was there's a reason. Shana didn't just mysteriously overpower Pheles, but there was actually a good reason to why, and that's the thing that I think made the fights good. About everything else it made me want to look forward to the next episode, and that deserves a solid 9 in my book.

Lol what's this about yuri?

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by ChrissieXD

See, that is all the motive to the fight. A point to the fight would be like the twins last season. Where stuff actually happens in a fight that advances the plot, other than needless carnage and begging. Like, they show the motive, how they act on it, the deciphering of the clues, etc. Since fights are mainly interesting for what comes between the blows, not the blows themselves. And this didn't have any..

Many things that happened during this fight that advanced the plot, I'm not sure how you can say it didn't. Pheles apearance wasn't to fight, it was simply to get in, get Johan, get out. The fact that Shana didn't like that and interfered, thereby starting the fight, was something Pheles hadn't counted on. However, Pheles apearance alone served to advance plot, the fight showed that she was very weak at the time, which again advanced plot. Then there is Margery, after finding out that Gin was there -in her eyes at least- did you really expect her to stay still? That would be drawing Margery out of character. Her discovering a possible link to Gin once more advanced plot. That aside, her berserking and the entire Oga-chan deal might serve to advance more development, or even finally convince Margery to actually train her two henchmen.

Originally Posted by ChrissieXD

It's my opinion. I find it stupid how Tanaka doesn't realize that it's a Fuzetsu and everything will be fixed. I also think that the tears and stuff are fake. But, Satou's is more annoying. It reminds me of a Jyu'nichi speech in Da Capo in being forced and having no real persuation in my eyes.

Question: Has Tanaka ever seen anyone get torn to shreds in a fuzetsu before? Much less someone he loves? That kinda has an impact on people, you know.

Originally Posted by ChrissieXD

If it was one continuous battle, it would be a lot worse, at least if it wasn't one that didn't have any plot other than relentless carnage. Puzzles, plot in action, etc. They were all missing. Heck, that twins battle S1 went on for 2 episodes or so, and it wasn't lacking.

The twins battle was nowhere near as plot developping as this one, the only thing really developping was Senpen discovering Reiji Maigo and Shana doing a bit of soul searching. In this episode we got Pheles, Pheles background, Pheles current status, Reiji Maigo background, Reiji Maigo info, new enemy (Sabrac) discovery that Reiji Maigo is bugged, Margery discovering Yuji can use silver flames... Really, this episode was filled to the brink with plot.

Originally Posted by ChrissieXD

And by fixed, I mean that there is no cliffhanger. Everything in the Fuzetsu is fixed, Pheles is under protection, etc. AKA, everything is back in order within half an episode. Sure, there are issues still needing resolving, but there's no intensity anymore. It's just everyday walk around and find answers.

Leaving people hanging with even more questions then the last episode is also a way to give a cliffhanger. Less urgency, yes, but it does not limit the annoyance of having to wait another week for the next episode.

[Sorrow-K]

Holy crap, an episode of Shakugan no Shana that was actually dramatic. I can't remember the last time SnS was as good as this. No, seriously... I can't. Not that I expect it to last. This series has been nothing but a disappointment so far, and this is coming from somewhat that had minimal expectations to begin with.