[Manga] Sasuke is stronger than Yondaime

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by james0246

He would now though . Oh to be a main character in a series where the villains never progress like the main characters...

That would be pretty much all of them, series that is, hence why the heroes aren't slaughtered as they ought to be.

Originally Posted by morbosfist

It's hard not to take it literally in context. Madara says that his hatred has gotten stronger, and that his body responded to that by granting him power. This is similar to how the Sharingan activates, but out of hatred instead of desperation.

It's a logical progression in all of Sasuke's fights. First time it manifests/evolves, Karin is constantly commenting on how evil/dark Sasuke's chakra feels. Second time, Sasuke remembers Itachi's sacrifice and Madara comments on the above. Third time, Sasuke goes completely nuts over the people in his flashbacks mocking him and the final form emerges. Hatred is what's fueling its evolution.

You're missing the point, it's a logical progression for nearly all the main characters in this kind of series. Naruto is all about frienship; how many time did he powerup during a fight after feeling strongly that he had to protect his friends? It's exactly the same thing with Sasuke currently except that considering his current characterization (sic) the emotion that fuels his strenght isn't the Power Of Friendship but sheer hatred instead.

Ultimately I think it's a matter of balancing screen time that just hasn't gone quite right. Naruto goes through a pretty regular pattern of one battle, long training, one more, train again. Sasuke's just gone through fight after fight with entirely offscreen training, assuming it's even there.

Naruto doesn't have a balanced screen time at all, he is the main character, you won't have entire arcs of training for anyone else. Good thing too, boring as they are, if Sasuke had training arc as well the series would be unbearable.
Sasuke's pattern is very regular when you think about it : fight, improve during the fight, hint of the next power up at the end of the fight. Pretty usual in shounen manga.
Anyways we've gone completely off topic so that's it for me.

[greyhame6]

Originally Posted by james0246

^The MS is meant to control the Kyuubi (that's somewhat its stated purpose), so it stands to reason that the various techniques of the MS are all techniques that can be used to control the Kyuubi. For example: Amaterasu = whip; Tsukuyomi = chair; and Susano'o is the lion tamer's body...or something to that effect...

y just the kyuubi? i know there arent a lot of examples of sharingan trying to control bijuu and sasuke never even tried to suppress hachibi but thats the point... y didnt he? regardless of sasuke's suppression abilities, madara showed that its possible to completely control a bijuu but shouldnt this ability be useful againt all 9? they all came from the same source after all. maybe sharingan is unable to suppress/control it if the jinchuuriki has already acquired control?

Originally Posted by james0246

He would now though .

its to be hoped not. otherwise he would just be a non-uchiha sasuke lol. a kage should have enuff sense to not go all out against an opponent who cost him his arm (even if it was a self-inflicted injury).

[Dnous]

Originally Posted by greyhame6

y just the kyuubi? i know there arent a lot of examples of sharingan trying to control bijuu and sasuke never even tried to suppress hachibi but thats the point... y didnt he? regardless of sasuke's suppression abilities, madara showed that its possible to completely control a bijuu but shouldnt this ability be useful againt all 9? they all came from the same source after all. maybe sharingan is unable to suppress/control it if the jinchuuriki has already acquired control?

its to be hoped not. otherwise he would just be a non-uchiha sasuke lol. a kage should have enuff sense to not go all out against an opponent who cost him his arm (even if it was a self-inflicted injury).

Well, mastering a bijuu is separating the mind from the chakra. If not mastered both are the same, and by using the Sharingan to suppress the mind the chakra goes down with it (as seen how Sasuke suppressed the Kyuubi). So yeah, it shouldn't be possible.

[madv2c]

Latest chapter pretty much puts Naruto ahead of Sasuke by several hundred miles (until we see what h4x the Eternal MS gives Sas).

And i actually believe Sasuke was never able to suppress the chakra of the Kyuubi, at the time Sasuke popped into Naruto's head, he wasn't about to go into 9-tails mode. It was probably just him assuming dominance over the Kyuubi in Naruto's mind, displaying his MS powers.

But either way, it's unlikely he will be able to affect Naruto's new form.. since the chakra has been separated and fully controlled by Naru.

[kodok_balls]

Originally Posted by Kakosan

So in your opinion, if you are Uchiha you just think about Susanoo and you'll know how to summon it just because you are angry? No trial and error? No study? No training? No agreement/pact between him and the summon? Come on... there were unreasonable power up's in Sasuke's case.

I'm totally agree with all your point plus your post above.
We'll never see Minato's real strength unless Bandai had printed a Battle Card with stats just like Dragon Ball Z.
It's like, Kishi had already set up the limit .. okay, this Guy is the legend but I don't need to show all his trick on my manga...or else he hadn't got the imagination yet to produce an astonishing scene.

And for Sasuke, that's what we call Plot No Jutsu... for the sake of the fans.

One last thing.. for Sasuke Battle Record ( the obvious, the fact ) :
1. Vs Kirabi : Owned ( plus tricked at the end of the show ).
2. Vs Raikage : No conclusion , or nearly double KO
3. Vs Mizukage : Owned
4. Vs Tsuchikage : Owned
5. Vs Danzou : using Extra life bonus and win ( finally )

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Kakosan

So in your opinion, if you are Uchiha you just think about Susanoo and you'll know how to summon it just because you are angry? No trial and error? No study? No training? No agreement/pact between him and the summon? Come on... there were unreasonable power up's in Sasuke's case.

Doesn't just happen to Sasuke...

This is exactly how Pein first called the Gedo Mazo summon. Bloodline abilities have always been shown as semi-instinctual.

[iBeast]

Originally Posted by Haak

1) The Raikage fought with Sasuke one on one for quite some time and Sasuke didn't exactly "destroy him without blinking".

You sure they actually fought 1v1? Or did this two cronies took a little breather and was relaying intel on how to fight Sasuke during that time?

[Haak]

Originally Posted by iBeast

You sure they actually fought 1v1? Or did this two cronies took a little breather and was relaying intel on how to fight Sasuke during that time?

Relaying intel on how to fight Sasuke? Nope, there wasn't any of that, unless you count that minor bit of intel given at the start which made absolutely no difference. I'd go with the first one.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Doesn't just happen to Sasuke...

This is exactly how Pein first called the Gedo Mazo summon. Bloodline abilities have always been shown as semi-instinctual.

Or how he killed the Konoha ninja who killed his parents and the Rock nin who attacked them or how Haku killed his father for that matter.
Bloodline limits are literally a power that comes naturally to their users, as far as Kimimaro was concerned moving a bones is probably almost as easy as moving a finger.
Of course advanced use of such abilities are more complex and not everybody even among people sharing the same bloodlines have the same talent and potential but for someone meant to be such a prodigy like Sasuke a day of fighting was enough to master(?) it.

Originally Posted by Haak

Relaying intel on how to fight Sasuke? Nope, there wasn't any of that, unless you count that minor bit of intel given at the start which made absolutely no difference. I'd go with the first one.

Knowing about the MS and Amaterasu beforehand is what allowed the Raikage to prepare and escape the attack, that seems a huge difference to me.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Knowing about the MS and Amaterasu beforehand is what allowed the Raikage to prepare and escape the attack, that seems a huge difference to me.

To be honest I don't see how the Raikage did anything he wouldn't have done if he didn't know. And he was practically acting like he didn't know.

[Hunter]

Check the chapter 463, as soon as the Raikage noticed the change of pattern in Sasuke's eyes and recognized the MS he immediately started to built up an obscene amount of chakra in order to become so fast that Sasuke couldn't even see him move anymore in order to avoid Amaterasu.

[greyhame6]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Check the chapter 463, as soon as the Raikage noticed the change of pattern in Sasuke's eyes and recognized the MS he immediately started to built up an obscene amount of chakra in order to become so fast that Sasuke couldn't even see him move anymore in order to avoid Amaterasu.

the "obscene amount of chakra" buildup happened when he unleashed the raiger bomb and before ms release. after that he just kept on going higher & higher. natural course of action to take really... when ur techs fail to kill u try harder. besides, since when is having intel on your opponents unfair?

[Hunter]

No it didn't, right after the Raikage recognized the MS there is a panel dedicated to him dramatically increasing his chakra where he goes "super-sayan" with his hair standing above his head, his Lightning Shroud inflating significantly in size and Kirin stating that he hit the chakra level of a Bijuu.

Whether this knowledge was unfair or not has never been part of the discussion. Haak didn't see what useful intel the Raikage could have beforehand and how it could have changed the course of the fight and I answered is all.
It's not a competition, there is no such a thing as a fair fight anyhow.

[Haak]

Yeah okay you have a point. That is a crucial peice of intel and one of the Raikage's guys did say that the Raikage was powering up specifically to counter the MS. But the original point was that there's nothing to suggest Sasuke would destroy the Raikage easily, and i think that point still stands.

[Mr. Johnny 5]

Originally Posted by Haak

Yeah okay you have a point. That is a crucial peice of intel and one of the Raikage's guys did say that the Raikage was powering up specifically to counter the MS. But the original point was that there's nothing to suggest Sasuke would destroy the Raikage easily, and i think that point still stands.

I don't think anyone can kill a kage easily. Aside from the no. 1 badass, the no.1 villain Orochimaru. He did it with the Kazekage probably only without much effort. The Hokage however... took his arms. It was also said i believe that the Hokage was the strongest amoung the other Kages... but i found that hard to believe.

[Hunter]

Did anyone say Sasuke could have destroyed the Raikage easily? I think not.
What James said is that Sasuke now, ie after he mastered Susanoo, could have handled the Raikage easily.

And really I find hard to argue otherwise, imagine the fight with Sasuke ables to use from the start an Amaterasu shielded Susanoo at full capacity. What could A have done? Attack, bounce back and set himself ablaze in the process is what.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Did anyone say Sasuke could have destroyed the Raikage easily? I think not.

I was arguing with iBeast:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=188

Originally Posted by Hunter

And really I find hard to argue otherwise, imagine the fight with Sasuke ables to use from the start an Amaterasu shielded Susanoo at full capacity. What could A have done? Attack, bounce back and set himself ablaze in the process is what.

It's all a bit ambiguous really. Maybe the Raikage has enough strength to break through a fully powered Susanoo aswell. Maybe a fully powered Susanoo doesn't actually have that much more defensive capabilities than the incomplete one we saw. Maybe he doesn't have to and can just run around until Sasuke wears himself out (EMS restores eye sight but Susanoo still depletes chakra). We could do this all day. It's hard to draw the line between reasonable speculation and fanwanking, here.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Haak

It's all a bit ambiguous really. Maybe the Raikage has enough strength to break through a fully powered Susanoo aswell. Maybe a fully powered Susanoo doesn't actually have that much more defensive capabilities than the incomplete one we saw. Maybe he doesn't have to and can just run around until Sasuke wears himself out (EMS restores eye sight but Susanoo still depletes chakra). We could do this all day. It's hard to draw the line between reasonable speculation and fanwanking, here.

A fully developed Susano can beat the power of the heavens, i mean the Kirin. Check out Zetsu's comment on Kirin in the Sasuke vs Itachi fight, that jutsu is beyond human ability because it uses the power of nature. Add to all this that Itachi was already exhausted and his illness was killing him right there.

A reasonable speculation is that according to shonen manga laws both Naruto and Sasuke are meant to have clearly surpassed all the kages.

[morbosfist]

Technically, if we take that page at face value, Itachi didn't even have Susanoo at full power at the start. It didn't have a head. Either that or Kirin burned off nearly the entire thing.

Susanoo is probably better at blocking area attacks than precision strikes, I would think. Danzo proved he could tear it open with concentrated strikes, so others could probably break it the same way.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Haak

I was arguing with iBeast:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=188

But if you notice he was answering someone talking about current Sasuke, not the one at the beginning of the arc, Sasuke became vastly more powerful between the time he fought the Raikage and Danzou.
That being said the part where he said they all teamed up and couldn't handle Sasuke was indeed absurd.

It's all a bit ambiguous really. Maybe the Raikage has enough strength to break through a fully powered Susanoo aswell. Maybe a fully powered Susanoo doesn't actually have that much more defensive capabilities than the incomplete one we saw. Maybe he doesn't have to and can just run around until Sasuke wears himself out (EMS restores eye sight but Susanoo still depletes chakra). We could do this all day. It's hard to draw the line between reasonable speculation and fanwanking, here.

Honestly I don't think it's that hard at all, the very first first stage of Susanoo when it was only a few bones blocked A's killing blows to the point Sasuke only received a bruise on his neck and a blooded mouth... Whereas a fully powered Susanoo stopped a mountain buster attack. And remember that by the time he fought Danzou Sasuke could maintain Susanoo for 10 minutes straight which mean the Raikage would have no conceivable way to damage Sasuke whereas he would be defeated if he tried to strike.
The Raikage was incredibly powerful, but a mastered Susanoo/Amaterasu shield is just that broken, particulary against Taijutsu.

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Technically, if we take that page at face value, Itachi didn't even have Susanoo at full power at the start. It didn't have a head. Either that or Kirin burned off nearly the entire thing.

Probably the latter, no way a partial Susanoo is that powerful. Kirin destroyed Susanoo, Itachi's cloak and damaged him a bit. I think it's testament enough of the resilience of the jutsu.

Susanoo is probably better at blocking area attacks than precision strikes, I would think. Danzo proved he could tear it open with concentrated strikes, so others could probably break it the same way.

Kirin was an AOE jutsu and did a better work, it's just about the attack power of the jutsu. Danzou breached Sasuke's incomplete Susanoo because his series of Fuuton blades combined with the suction power of his summon was very powerful.
Susanoo is an incredibly strong defense but it's not invincible, put enough firepower on it will go down.